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Pierre_Henri

Incredible Prices for International Rarities

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Pierre_Henri

Whatever one thinks of the prices of coins (in general) over the past Covit-year or so, the truth is that true rarities will always do well - some prices are almost unimaginable in South African Rand terms!

Please see this link - 

https://www.incollectables.com/post/auction-news-heritage-auctions-world-record-numismatic-events-achieve-90-68-million

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jwither

This is my favorite extract from your linked article:

"rare coins as this asset class continues to demonstrate its viability as an alternative investment."

Here is my response to this ridiculous claim which was also made recently by Mark Salzberg, President of NGC parent Certified Collectibles group.

A Letter from Mark Salzberg - US, World, and Ancient Coins - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards

Fractional ownership... of baseball cards... ? This can't be good. - US, World, and Ancient Coins - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards

The there is this gem, also form your linked article:

"On the South African front, our coinage continues to perform well and a number of notable rarities from the South African series were on display:"

Whoever wrote this article must be living on another plant, as in the one I am living on, price trends have performed entirely differently.  The 1895 ZAR 2/- MS-63 at $5,040 is a good price?  Well, a marginally better one (MS-64) profiled here sold in either the Bakewell or Mitchell collections back in 2015 for about $17,000.

As for the US examples illustrated, here is my explanation for it from the first NGC link:

"What this letter and anyone who agrees with it totally misses isn't just the practical impossibility of perpetually buying coins as "widgets", but that the current price level only exists because of the much bigger and broader financial asset and credit mania.  I have seen almost zero acknowledgment of this simple fact in any coin discussion. When this mania finally ends and it will "eventually", not only will there be no "growth", the price level is heading for a crash landing, if not in nominal prices then when measured by purchasing power."

Lastly, for those who are not aware of it,  a private equity recently announced they are buying PCGS parent company CLCT, presumably for sports card and not coin grading.  The price in the link is even more insane than stated, I believe it was raised to $810MM but someone else can confirm it.

Collectors Universe agrees to be acquired by investor group - US, World, and Ancient Coins - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards

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Pierre_Henri
On 2/19/2021 at 12:31 AM, jwither said:

Lastly, for those who are not aware of it,  a private equity recently announced they are buying PCGS parent company CLCT, presumably for sports card and not coin grading.  The price in the link is even more insane than stated, I believe it was raised to $810MM but someone else can confirm it.

Collectors Universe agrees to be acquired by investor group - US, World, and Ancient Coins - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards

There was an interesting article in our Cape Town Afrikaans daily "Die Burger" this weekend about an USA Sports Card Auctioneer Company that was sold for R525 Million recently in the United States. 

I threw the newspaper away so are not sure if it is the same company you are referring to.

On the negative side the reporter says that people have been caught up with nostalgia about their old time base ball card collections during the lock down period (retrieved again due to boredom) and the prices rocketed because of the sudden new interest, but as soon as everything calms down, prices might go southwards.

I would not know, collecting sports cards in our country has never been a big thing.

Pierre

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jwither

For that price, it has to be another company.

As I stated in one of the above links, I grew up as an avid follower of the four major US team sports (American football, baseball, basketball, and ice hockey), so I "get it" but only for objects which should "sensibly" be "significant".

A sports card is a piece of cardboard.  Yes, I get that a coin is also a piece of metal but the mania I am describing here is centered around more recent cards which were mass produced with most having a high survival rate, except in the highest TPG grades.  The older ones are or may be actually scarce or rare because few saved it since "collecting" had not been financialized at the time.  This and nostalgia is why a Mickey Mantle rookie baseball card which is hardly rare or really even scarce by coin standards sells for high six figures or millions of USD in any better TPG grade.

But take a look at the article in the link below to see how far this foolishness has gone.  I have heard of "intangible collectibles" but to now find out it's a "market" "worth" hundreds of millions or even billions of USD in just plain crazy.  Individual virtual images selling for hundreds of thousands.  It's another aspect of the asset mania destined for collapse.

NFTs: Why digital art and sports collectibles are suddenly so popular (cnbc.com)

I am aware of virtual reality.  The next thing I am going to hear is that this concept has been extended to something or everything else.  

Want a mansion?  Just buy a virtual one for a fraction of the real thing but at an absurd price.  Why not?

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri

I am being blocked from using the fraudulent Australians name, so this is my last post on this forum. 

Kind regards and be safe.

Pierre

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jwither

This place has turned into a morgue but if anyone is even interested, Stacks Bowers just sold the 1822 US half eagle ($5 gold similar in size to a pond or sovereign) for $8.4MM with buyer's premium. 

It's the first time it sold since 1982 as part of the Eliasberg collection and now only the fifth owner in about 115 years.

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Cold Sea
Posted (edited)

This is one expensive coin. Unbelievable that nearly 18 thousand were struck and only three survived, this being the only one in a private collection. It's like they say, this type of coin can never really be overpriced. 

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither
7 hours ago, Cold Sea said:

This is one expensive coin. Unbelievable that nearly 18 thousand were struck and only three survived, this being the only one in a private collection. It's like they say, this type of coin can never really be overpriced. 

The type was struck from 1813 to 1834.  A disproportionate percentage of the mintage was melted because the value of the metal was slightly higher than the face value at the time.  Since it is gold, most of the survivors tend to be at least XF or AU measured by condition but there are many "details" coins out there.  Only the 1813 is "common" with an estimated 600.

For the 1822, it's also theorized that many or most were struck iwith another date.  The other two are part of the Smithsonian collection and not available for sale.

This is a US coin but it isn't unusual within this time period to have low survivors elsewhere.  Take a look at the subsidiary mint (all but Philadelphia) estimates for liberty seated coinage in PCGS Coin Facts.  This is my baseline for the Spanish colonial coinage I collect.

As an example, the 1766 Peru 1/2R has a recorded mintage of 168,200 with one reportedly confirmed and pictured in Yonaka's reference.  Presumably, there are more out there (somewhere, anywhere) but it isn't inventoried in the ANS collection, it wasn't in Patterson, and it wasn't in Sellshopp, the latter two the best private collections of this series to my knowledge. 

It might also be in the ANS (not inventoried), in an old time European collection, or in another institutional collection (Smithsonian, British Museum) but since it's not a prominent coin, unlikely to come out.  I still intend to take a trip to the ANS to inspect their holding, eventually.

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jwither

A few other coins fit on this list.

1797 PCGS MS-66 USA half dollar sold for $1.68MM in the same auction as the 1822 $5.

On Friday, Heritage sold a UK Edward VIII pattern five sovereign for $2.28MM.  I believe it's one of three privately available and I rank it as my #2 20th century coin behind US pattern Judd-1776, unique 1907 Indian head $20 gold.  Multiple other British and one Australian coin also sold from this collection for $500,000+.

Earlier this year, Heritage sold a 1907 Roman numeral ultra-high relief $20 gold for $3.6MM.  It's overpriced for the scarcity with I believe 19 known though not all publicly available.  (There is also a far more common "high relief" and normal strike for this coin which are much cheaper.)

A PCGS forum member purportedly recently bought the PCGS MS-67 US 1861 "Pacquet" reverse $20 gold for $4MM.  Two known but it's a minor design type and I consider it one of the most over rated coins.

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