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Unrecorded trial strike?

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GROOVIE COINS

Good day collectors 

What are your thoughts on these unrecorded trial strikes? My first thought is prison money, so I'm puzzled that SANGS would grade these as trial strikes.

These odd coins leave me with nothing but questions...

  • Trial strike but the coin is in VF condition?
  • Surface lustre contradicts the VF condition and is that of a newer struck coin?
  • Coin couldn't have circulated, but it's VF?
  • An attempt at forgery? 

regards Robert

https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/474180346/TRIAL_STRIKE_1929_Union_2_1_2_Shillings_Cu_100_Graded_VF25.html

https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/474180760/UNRECORDED_TRIAL_STRIKE_1934_Union_Lead_Penny_Graded_VF25.html

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Pierre_Henri

I agree with you - very few trial strikes (patterns I believe?) circulated, and if they did, it would be a true miracle if they actually circulated down to VF condition ....  

But sometimes one do get some stunning new discoveries like this 1926 Penny where the the obverse is the reverse incused – a stunning error coin.

(The coin is the correct weight, so has NOT been "split" in half) 

200710164132_Mrj199.jpg

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Pierre_Henri
Posted (edited)

.

Edited by Pierre_Henri

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xsiandreas

I have see these trial coins posted on a FB page previously. In my opinion a trial strike like the 1929 copper half crown would not see that much circulation,  especially in such an obvious wrong metal. So too me it makes little sense. 

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xsiandreas

I have see these trial coins posted on a FB page previously. In my opinion a trial strike like the 1929 copper half crown would not see that much circulation,  especially in such an obvious wrong metal. So too me it makes little sense. A similar example would the bronze one pound, but it has seen no circulation:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/south-africa/world-coins/south-africa-george-v-bronze-pattern-sovereign-1928-sa-/a/3016-25093.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

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CapeCurrencyCoin

Well,i dont think SANGS are doing themselves any favours in terms of credibility if they think the 1929 1/2 Crown/2.5 Shillings  is a VF25,whether its a trial strike or not,and i seriously doubt it,the grading of VF25 is a little embarrassing....

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GROOVIE COINS
Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2020 at 5:43 PM, CapeCurrencyCoin said:

Well,i dont think SANGS are doing themselves any favours in terms of credibility if they think the 1929 1/2 Crown/2.5 Shillings  is a VF25,whether its a trial strike or not,and i seriously doubt it,the grading of VF25 is a little embarrassing....

I'm a huge advocate for coins being graded here in SA but I do admit SANGS missed the plot with their grading system. I don't see why they felt the need to alter the Sheldon system as it's universally accepted.

This is a classic example of where they would numerically grade a coin as VF25 but verbally call it "Fine", as can be seen by little F in the bottom right corner of the label. 

Call a pot a pot and a kettle a kettle, anything else just creates confusion. 

Edited by GROOVIE COINS

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CapeCurrencyCoin
On 7/10/2020 at 6:28 PM, Pierre_Henri said:

.

I dont see any issue with SANGS clarifying how the Sheldon scale grading corresponds to the equivalent in the traditional form of grading,ie F=VF25 or VF+ =AU50 or EF+=AU58 etc etc,in fact i think its important because many collectors/buyers/sellers dont actually realize the equivalent and corresponding grade  between grading systems, its a matter of speaking the same language, not actually a modification of anything, as a result of not understanding this many novice buyers are actually being slightly misled when they buy an NGC, PCGS,ANACS or SANGS graded coin because in the case of SA  coins they are getting their Cat Value from Herns catalogue,they think for example an XF40 coin in a slab corresponds to an EF/XF in Herns or Krause etc,whereas it does not,an XF40 (using this example) is actually just a VF.So buyers end up paying EF/XF money for a VF coin,and typically the  cat value between VF and EF can be quite substantial.

The issue with this 1929 2 1/2 Shillings "trial piece" based on what i can see in the photos(which are not very clear) is that its not even remotely close to an F or Fine grade on the traditional grading system,because in this case its what i cant see of the coin,ie whats missing or worn away that clearly shows that its overgraded by SANGS...

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Pierre_Henri
22 hours ago, CapeCurrencyCoin said:

I dont see any issue with SANGS clarifying how the Sheldon scale grading corresponds to the equivalent in the traditional form of grading,ie F=VF25 or VF+ =AU50 or EF+=AU58 etc etc,in fact i think its important because many collectors/buyers/sellers dont actually realize the equivalent and corresponding grade  between grading systems, its a matter of speaking the same language, not actually a modification of anything, as a result of not understanding this many novice buyers are actually being slightly misled when they buy an NGC, PCGS,ANACS or SANGS graded coin because in the case of SA  coins they are getting their Cat Value from Herns catalogue,they think for example an XF40 coin in a slab corresponds to an EF/XF in Herns or Krause etc,whereas it does not,an XF40 (using this example) is actually just a VF.So buyers end up paying EF/XF money for a VF coin,and typically the  cat value between VF and EF can be quite substantial.

The issue with this 1929 2 1/2 Shillings "trial piece" based on what i can see in the photos(which are not very clear) is that its not even remotely close to an F or Fine grade on the traditional grading system,because in this case its what i cant see of the coin,ie whats missing or worn away that clearly shows that its overgraded by SANGS...

I agree 100% with your comments.

As a matter of interest,  here is the 1929 Half Crown trial strike in MS64 by the same seller

https://old.bidorbuy.co.za/item/474180719/TRIAL_STRIKE_1929_Union_2_1_2_Shillings_Cu_100_Graded_MS64.html

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Pierre_Henri

Here are the VF25 and the MS64 side by side.

Could it be that the VF25 was actually a soft strike and it did not circulate as such?

 

pattern.jpg

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CapeCurrencyCoin

Hi,it is possible that its a soft strike,the wear is certainly not even over the coins surfaces,which is often a sign of a weak or soft strike or worn dies,however that would only partially explain the apparently high level of "wear" this coin exhibits, in my opinion.Its a pity the photos arent of a higher quality to judge a bit better.The MS64 also seems overgraded,but again,the photos are not detailed enough to say for sure.It is curious that more than one or a few of  these "Trial Strike" pieces seem to have surfaced,it will be interesting to see what transpires in terms of additional information, hopefully the seller will  provide higher quality photographs of these coins since they have certainly generated much talking points and curiosity.

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warrengreen

IMG_7512.JPG

IMG_7510.JPG

IMG_7514.JPG

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warrengreen

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GROOVIE COINS

 

32 minutes ago, warrengreen said:

 

Thank you Warren Green for the higher resolution photos.

 

The 1929 does not look like its been naturally worn down to VF or F... The rim and teeth, as well as surface as well as the lustre around the devices contradict the "wear".

I think CapeCurrency could be correct in their "weak strike" explanation.  

I found the below from wiki describing strike through errors:

Strike through[edit]

A "strike-through" coin is made when another object comes between a blank and a die at the time of striking. That object's outline is pressed into the blank's surface. Common examples include hard objects such as staples, metal shavings, and other coins as well as soft objects such as cloth and grease. Hard objects leave sharp outlines and, on occasion, adhere to the blank producing a coin called a "retained strike-through". A planchet "struck-through" a coin is left with an impression of the coin called brockage (discussed below). When the "strike-through object is a blank planchet the result is a uni-face coin with one struck side and one blank side (see below). When the "struck-through" object is another coin, and that coin adheres to a die(as opposed to the other coin), the adhered coin is called a "die cap" (discussed below). Two coins which adhere to one another are called "bonded pairs". Softer objects, such as grease, can fill crevices in a die, producing a weak strike with a smudged appearance. These errors are often called "missing element coins" (discussed above and as "filled dies."(A great example of such an error occurred in 1922, when only the Denver mint struck Lincoln cents. The dies were so covered in grease, because the mint had to speed up production, that the mintmark was obscured and therefore either nonexistent or weakened on the 1922 cents. These are very popular with collectors.[11])

 

I think the "soft objects, such as grease" line best describes what could have happened here.  

Another thing that stands out is the deap ring impression, from SOU to AFR on the reverse; and less pronounce on the obverse. Could this be an indication of perhaps machine wear?

 

regards Robert

 

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jwither

I'd avoid this type of coin.

At best, it's a novelty but wouldn't pay R25000 for any of those profiled in this topic.  I have seen a few of the 1934 1/- sell on multiple occasions and the 1942 farthing once.    However, since ABSA does or did own most of these, I have never heard of anyone who collects it.  It's at most a handful or somewhat more.

A 1929 2/6 regular strike MS-64 is worth more than R25000 (still) but lower but still "high" grades are worth a lot less.  It's a scarce coin in better grades but not nearly as rare as most on this forum previously believed.

I used to think that these Union patterns should be worth a lot of money but don't anymore.  If ABSA ever decides to liquidate most or all of their collection, the novelty will disappear and the prices will crash for most of them.

There are far more interesting and marketable coins available for this kind of money, both in and out of South Africa.

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