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GROOVIE COINS

Error or Con

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GROOVIE COINS

Good day all

For a long time I've seen a trend with listing error coins under the numismatic category that are not errors.

Off center or miss struck coins are indeed considered errors, but many of the coins are plain damaged coins. 

The bi-metal R5 are a common example of when the centre bronze is punched out of the aluminium bezel. Many times these coins have clearly seen circulation but they are punched out. It is obvious the coins didn't come from the Mint in such a condition.

I've also seen old nickel rand that looks as if it had chunks broken off being listed as an "Error struck" coin. The coin has a fair amount of wear and there is no way such an error with jagged edges could have circulated. It appears as if somebody took a pliers to it.

Then you get the so called bronze two rands, which by examining the photos looks as if their nickel plating have been stripped through some sort of acid process. 

What is even more astonishing is the amount of people that are eagerly bidding or buying these "rare error" coins. There's nothing rare about an accidentally or intentionally damaged coin. 

Not to be stepping on toes but its just as misleading as listing a circulated madiba R5 for a high value claiming it to be rare or scarce. At the end of the day it will only serve harm the hobby.

regards Robert

 

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jwither

Sorry to say it, but it's my opinion that there are a lot of willfully ignorant participants in the hobby in your country.

As for what you describe, I presume (not having a better reason) that it is once again financially motivated.  They are trying to buy some "rare" coin cheap believing they can make a windfall.

Even if the coins you describe are legitimate errors, there is no reason to believe more than an irrelevant fraction (if any at all) will ever be worth a meaningful price.

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GROOVIE COINS
1 hour ago, jwither said:

Sorry to say it, but it's my opinion that there are a lot of willfully ignorant participants in the hobby in your country.

As for what you describe, I presume (not having a better reason) that it is once again financially motivated.  They are trying to buy some "rare" coin cheap believing they can make a windfall.

Even if the coins you describe are legitimate errors, there is no reason to believe more than an irrelevant fraction (if any at all) will ever be worth a meaningful price.

R200 for a rand hacked apart by pliers and R450 for a bunch of punched out R5. The winners of these auctions can just as well throw their money away.

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All Music

Let me say at the outset that I know nothing about coins myself but I saw this post and clicked on the links provided.  The one lot has seven bids on it. Going into the buying profiles of the bidders they are all regular buyers of coins, some of them are even regular buyers of error coins. Most have a high rating in the 1000's. That doesn't tell me that these are buyers who don't know what they are bidding on and are ignorantly hoping to make a huge financial gain out of their purchase.

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GROOVIE COINS

I just pulled this change from my wallet and came across a very pale 20 cent. By the looks of it, caused by environmental exposure/damage. By all accounts this constitutes as a rare error as well...rolling eyes.

 

IMG_20200130_115732.jpg

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jwither
19 hours ago, All Music said:

Let me say at the outset that I know nothing about coins myself but I saw this post and clicked on the links provided.  The one lot has seven bids on it. Going into the buying profiles of the bidders they are all regular buyers of coins, some of them are even regular buyers of error coins. Most have a high rating in the 1000's. That doesn't tell me that these are buyers who don't know what they are bidding on and are ignorantly hoping to make a huge financial gain out of their purchase.

If you aren't a collector, then you presumably don't know the collecting culture in your country.

I don't even live in South Africa but I can tell you a lot about this subject having posted here for about 10 years.  This forum is a dead zone now but when it was active, I have never encountered a similar mindset anywhere else where there was such an obsession with the financial aspects of "collecting".  The best explanation for it being a dead zone now is the collapse in the price level.

Someone being a regular buyer of coins doesn't mean they know anything about what they are buying.  You can read the historical posts here where I contradicted the claims here from many contributors.  A few just disagreed with me but mostly, they just didn't know what they were talking about.

Here is my description of the two listings linked above:

First one:  I see a lot of things, but looks to be post mint damage.   A few look to be blank planchets which aren't errors either.  Many have an appearance where I don't know what to think of it.  If it actually came out of the SA Mint like that, they must have really poor quality control.  I agree with Robert's assessment.  Looks like a created "error" to me, whoever did it.

Second one: Looks like post mint damage.  If it really was clipped at the South African Mint, it doesn't look like any clipped coin I have ever seen.  I can't say it's impossible but it is at minimum unusual and not in a good sense either.  (It is a very unappealing coin.)  It also looks to have other post mint damage (bent) which I assume occurred when the metal was removed from the planchet, however it occurred.

It's also possible South African collectors have a different definition of "error" than I do or in used in USA coin collecting.  I don't collect any error coins but the CONECA website does (or at least did) have a glossary where they list at least some (can't say it is all) error categories.  CONECA is the USA error collector club.

Not that it really matters, but I'd also rate the chances NGC or PCGS would holder it as errors to be zero.

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Cold Sea
On 1/30/2020 at 5:10 PM, jwither said:

If you aren't a collector, then you presumably don't know the collecting culture in your country.

I don't even live in South Africa but I can tell you a lot about this subject having posted here for about 10 years.  This forum is a dead zone now but when it was active, I have never encountered a similar mindset anywhere else where there was such an obsession with the financial aspects of "collecting".  The best explanation for it being a dead zone now is the collapse in the price level.

Someone being a regular buyer of coins doesn't mean they know anything about what they are buying.  You can read the historical posts here where I contradicted the claims here from many contributors.  A few just disagreed with me but mostly, they just didn't know what they were talking about.

Here is my description of the two listings linked above:

First one:  I see a lot of things, but looks to be post mint damage.   A few look to be blank planchets which aren't errors either.  Many have an appearance where I don't know what to think of it.  If it actually came out of the SA Mint like that, they must have really poor quality control.  I agree with Robert's assessment.  Looks like a created "error" to me, whoever did it.

Second one: Looks like post mint damage.  If it really was clipped at the South African Mint, it doesn't look like any clipped coin I have ever seen.  I can't say it's impossible but it is at minimum unusual and not in a good sense either.  (It is a very unappealing coin.)  It also looks to have other post mint damage (bent) which I assume occurred when the metal was removed from the planchet, however it occurred.

It's also possible South African collectors have a different definition of "error" than I do or in used in USA coin collecting.  I don't collect any error coins but the CONECA website does (or at least did) have a glossary where they list at least some (can't say it is all) error categories.  CONECA is the USA error collector club.

Not that it really matters, but I'd also rate the chances NGC or PCGS would holder it as errors to be zero.

You are right. Maybe one or two errors and the rest is face value or scrap.

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Cold Sea
On 1/30/2020 at 5:10 PM, jwither said:

If it actually came out of the SA Mint like that, they must have really poor quality control.

Obviously all Mints' errors are lapses in quality and/or security control. I've seen a batch of uncirculated SA errors in the past where the incorrect planchets were used, but my believe is they were done on purpose, an inside job if you like. These coins will be graded as error coins by all grading companies, unlike the examples here.  I have errors in my collection and find them very interesting. Errors are fun and relatively easy to collect. 

On the subject of "I have never encountered a similar mindset anywhere else where there was such an obsession with the financial aspects of "collecting".".  You know you have mentioned how your private collection is worth more or less and you do not expect to make a profit. Why keep track of the financial side of things if it does not bother you. You might call it an obsession, but I would call it a world wide phenomenon. I have yet to see any auction house or seller anywhere in the world not wanting to realize the best price, whether it's coins or Barbie dolls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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jwither
10 hours ago, Cold Sea said:

Obviously all Mints' errors are lapses in quality and/or security control. I've seen a batch of uncirculated SA errors in the past where the incorrect planchets were used, but my believe is they were done on purpose, an inside job if you like. These coins will be graded as error coins by all grading companies, unlike the examples here.  I have errors in my collection and find them very interesting. Errors are fun and relatively easy to collect. 

On the subject of "I have never encountered a similar mindset anywhere else where there was such an obsession with the financial aspects of "collecting".".  You know you have mentioned how your private collection is worth more or less and you do not expect to make a profit. Why keep track of the financial side of things if it does not bother you. You might call it an obsession, but I would call it a world wide phenomenon. I have yet to see any auction house or seller anywhere in the world not wanting to realize the best price, whether it's coins or Barbie dolls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have made the financial comments in this context to show that the value of most collections is immaterial, as in financially irrelevant.  It’s financially irrelevant yet that’s about all most used to post about here.

Are you actually claiming that the majority of prior comments displayed interest in collecting when all they talked about was the TPG, what the coins worth, what they hoped it would be worth...?  None of that has anything to do with collecting.  It got so bad that’s why I wrote that extensive explanation exposing this nonsense.  The whole purpose of this financial promotion was to convince others to agree with them and inflate prices as much as possible.  Go read US coin forums if you don’t believe me.  It’s nothing like that, even though this aspect is discussed 

 I keep track of it for a couple of reasons.  First, for taxes.  Second, for whoever inherits it so that they will have an idea of value.  Third, to limit my financial exposure.  If it’s more than I feel comfortable with, I’ll either sell something or stop buying.
 

Not collecting for profit doesn’t mean I mind throwing money away.  That’s throwing part of your life away time wise, literally.

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jwither

As for your comment on errors, that’s not what I meant.  I don’t consider those coins.  The coins look like crap.  That’s what I meant by poor quality control.

 I agree many errors are intentional.  Some I have seen or heard of in the US, I’d rate the chances of winning the powerball lottery as higher than those coins being legitimate.

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jwither
Just now, jwither said:

As for your comment on errors, that’s not what I meant.  I don’t consider those coins.  The coins look like crap.  That’s what I meant by poor quality control.

 I agree many errors are intentional.  Some I have seen or heard of in the US, I’d rate the chances of winning the powerball lottery as higher than those coins being legitimate.

I don’t consider those coins errors.

Edited by jwither

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Pinkx
On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 4:52 PM, GROOVIE COINS said:

I agree that the 1981 posting is not an error.

The lot of 27 is a different story. Yes the R5 pieces are not errors, but there are still two blank flans, a R2 on a 5c flan (2005), 10 x 10c that are broadstrikes (2005, 2006 and 2007), and then 2 x 10c that are partially plated. So all in all, at least 15 minor real error coins at roughly R30 a piece excluding postage. Not a bad deal at all for a real collector of error coins.

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GROOVIE COINS
3 hours ago, Pinkx said:

I agree that the 1981 posting is not an error.

The lot of 27 is a different story. Yes the R5 pieces are not errors, but there are still two blank flans, a R2 on a 5c flan (2005), 10 x 10c that are broadstrikes (2005, 2006 and 2007), and then 2 x 10c that are partially plated. So all in all, at least 15 minor real error coins at roughly R30 a piece excluding postage. Not a bad deal at all for a real collector of error coins.

The issue is not about the twelve 10 cent pieces that are genuine errors. There are far too many damaged coins (including the discoloured coins have environmental damage and that have been put through some sort of strip process) that are passed off as errors.

I wonder would the auction would have brought in R445 had the listing been named 27 damaged coins. I seriously doubt it.

regards Robert

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Pinkx

Who cares what they call the listing ... as always "Buyer beware" and do your homework.

I am only referring to your original post that said "R200 for a rand hacked apart by pliers and R450 for a bunch of punched out R5. The winners of these auctions can just as well throw their money away."

The buyer did not throw away R450, he bought quite a few nice minor errors for R30 a piece (15 pieces x R30 = R450), and if he knows what he's doing will probably throw the other R5 bits away or at least make up R12 change (2 x R5 + 1 x R2) for parking tips.

He did not waste his money but actually got quite a good deal imo.

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testrarossa
7 hours ago, Pinkx said:

He did not waste his money but actually got quite a good deal imo.

My opinion is the seller is the only person that got a good deal.

Linked an article from today’s News24 which illustrates people’s high value on “junk” items. The items being discussed in this topic falls in this category. 
https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-much-is-mandela-r5-coin-worth-price-2020-2

 

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Pinkx

Wow Testarossa. So real error coins are now classified as "junk" items by you. And people wonder why numismatics is dying a slow death in SA. No appreciation for how a coin is actually manufactured and the processes involved. Your link attached also has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

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testrarossa
4 hours ago, Pinkx said:

Wow Testarossa. So real error coins are now classified as "junk" items by you. And people wonder why numismatics is dying a slow death in SA. No appreciation for how a coin is actually manufactured and the processes involved. Your link attached also has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Have a good life. 

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