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Little Miss Muffet

MELTING OLD COINS

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Little Miss Muffet

Normally when I buy old collectable coins and some of them are either rubbed or badly scratched I do not offer them for sale

but accumulate them and scrap them for their precious metal value.

When I took coins to be scrapped today I was told it is illegal to melt coins and that they are the property of the Reserve bank

This apparently applies to  old South African Shillings,gold coins etc.

How true is this? Apart from that if a silver R1 is presented to the Reserve bank they will pay the face value of  R1

 

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GROOVIE COINS
On 12/4/2019 at 6:06 PM, Little Miss Muffet said:

Normally when I buy old collectable coins and some of them are either rubbed or badly scratched I do not offer them for sale

but accumulate them and scrap them for their precious metal value.

When I took coins to be scrapped today I was told it is illegal to melt coins and that they are the property of the Reserve bank

This apparently applies to  old South African Shillings,gold coins etc.

How true is this? Apart from that if a silver R1 is presented to the Reserve bank they will pay the face value of  R1

 

I've previously spoken about this to a bullion trader that trade krugerrands and jewellery. He has often told me when people bring in their old mint sets he discards the nickel coins and sends the silver rands off for melting. It is a common practice.

I've also heard it said that it isn't illegal to melt down a old coin, but it is if you deface it. I'm not sure if that makes sense or if there is any truth to it. 

Whether illegal or not, this country's government has a lot more pressing matters to concern itself with than the melting of old shillings. A few shillings is not going to bridge the revenue shortfall. 

regards Robert

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Cold Sea

It is illegal, and the law is the law, even if it is a few old shillings. All money, even ZAR, belongs to the Reserve Bank and may not be destroyed.

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Little Miss Muffet

As far as I am concerned my good ZAR coin collection  belongs to me and my love for them would never have me melt them down

The bad ones are mine too unless they pay me the silver price which apparently they will not.

All our banks are a total rip off in a country that is struggling .

When I go overseas I use my son's UK account ( NO charge whatsoever )so the bank cannot charge me R65 everytime I withdraw pounds--Rip off

Edited by Little Miss Muffet

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Cold Sea

I agree with you about being ripped off. However, that is not the point. The Reserve Bank bought the metal, paid for the manufacturing and distributed the coinage at their own cost. You only own the face value (or collectors value) of the coin. The metal belongs to the Reserve Bank. According to them, only once the coinage has been demonetised can you alter, smelt or make jewellery etc with it. I am not aware of any local series that has been demonetised.

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Pierre_Henri
7 hours ago, Cold Sea said:

I agree with you about being ripped off. However, that is not the point. The Reserve Bank bought the metal, paid for the manufacturing and distributed the coinage at their own cost. You only own the face value (or collectors value) of the coin. The metal belongs to the Reserve Bank. According to them, only once the coinage has been demonetised can you alter, smelt or make jewellery etc with it. I am not aware of any local series that has been demonetised.

According to https://en.wiktionary.org/

Demonetised means ....

To remove the status of legal tender from (a coin etc.) and remove it from circulation.

A 1960 silver shilling is not legal tender in this country and have been removed from circulation almost 60 years ago.

Why can't it be melted?

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Cold Sea

It has never been gazetted. The reserve bank will buy it at face value so it is still money.

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Cold Sea

Hi Pierre, see the e-mail below that I received earlier in the year from the Reserve bank. 

 

 

Dear Tumelo

 

LSD has previously advised CMD that ZAR coins issued between 1892 and 1902 (“ZAR Coins”) remain legal tender in South Africa until demonetised by the Minister of Finance. That advice remains constant and is hereby reiterated.

 

We agree with Maggie’s views that defacing of the abovementioned ZAR Coins will amount to a contravention of the South African Reserve Bank Act (s34). Trading in altered or counterfeit ZAR Coins (like all other legal tender coins) will also be a contravention of the South African Reserve Bank Act(s34). Anyone who willingly defaces ZAR Coins or counterfeits them, may be criminally prosecuted for contravention of the provisions of the South African Reserve Bank Act (s34). Any reproduction of ZAR coins is subject to the same requirements as other legal tender coins.  

 

Please feel free to contact us if you need any further information and/or clarity.

 

Many thanks

 

 

Mr. Kabelo Mohale

Specialist Legal Counsel

Legal Services Department

 

P O Box 427 Pretoria 0001 South Africa

370 Helen Joseph Street (formerly Church Street) Pretoria 0002

Tel. +27 12 313 4170 Fax +27 12 399 7190 Cell +27 73 651 5029

E-mail: Kabelo.mohale@resbank.co.za  www.resbank.co.za

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Cold Sea

I have tried to post the Reserve bank reply I got before, but BOB admin must clear it first. It explains it better

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Pierre_Henri

I have just find an article in De Nummis of May 2017 by Professor Francois Malan entitled "The rights of the South African Reserve Bank with respect to historic coinage"

The coins that the SA Reserve Bank have no rights over are coins & tokens that circulated in SA before 1874, the Blank (Kaal) Ponde of 1900 and the 1898 Sammy Marks Tickeys. 

Also the Gold Sovereigns and Half Sovereigns minted at Pretoria from 1923 to 1932 (the reason being that the Royal Mint supplied the dies and the United Kingdom own the rights to these coins)

The coins that there is no clarity regarding their ownership are the 1874 Burgersponde and the Veldponde of 1902.

The SA Reserve Bank "owns"  all other ZAR coins (including those struck in Berlin in 1892) as well as those of the Union (1923-1960) and obviously those of the RSA since 1961.

image.thumb.png.9dd676ed419c4895995de109bd27f1d0.png

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dcdoberman

Yes, I've always wondered why people pay many multiples of the face value of the "legal tender" gold 500 rands and silver 50 rands  issued by the SA mint (a wholly owned subsidiary of the SARB).

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Little Miss Muffet

So Kruger with his pipe and hat is illegal yet many are sold as collectors items

Silver filigree jewellery is more often made out of old ,800 silver coins and there is plenty of filigree

jewellery on the market.

My Kruger coins are mine--Dis myne😄

Edited by Little Miss Muffet

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Cold Sea
4 hours ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

So Kruger with his pipe and hat is illegal yet many are sold as collectors items

Silver filigree jewellery is more often made out of old ,800 silver coins and there is plenty of filigree

jewellery on the market.

My Kruger coins are mine--Dis myne😄

You are right. Trench art coins seems to be illegal. Karoo Banksy rings are definitely illegal. I think common sense prevails here, but if you start scrap dealing you will most probably be stopped and get fined. 

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dcdoberman

This is a completely nonsensical subject , as silver is not regulated like gold and anyone is allowed to own silver in its unprocessed form and my trade this silver.

So if this high crime of processing and old SA coin is to be committed it would be near impossible to prosecute as the evidence would already have been destroyed. 

If some individual were to go to a refinery with a large  block of silver he would have absolutely no problem selling it as there is no reason to suspect a crime was committed as this silver could come from any number of sources.

This is on the other hand not possible with gold, in good old SA.

 

 

 

 

 

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Cold Sea

Isn't this just the problem in SA these days. If the evidence is destroyed, it would be near impossible to prosecute. A shocking commentary and one which shows how nonchalant some in our society have become towards breaking the law.

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dcdoberman

Sorry if I upset you, but be sure not to break a leg getting of that high horse of yours.

Regarding that silver refining , ( which I'm sure was mostly all done in the earlier part of the 80s when silver was at its most valuable ) rest assured I'm almost convinced that some of it found its way into more usable forms.  I'm hoping maybe even my beautiful new solar panels or that shiny new I phone 11 ?

By the way I'm sure there's a lot wrong with SA , like in many a foreign country, but my total indifference to what happens to the little junk silver in SA should not give you sleepless nights.

Regards

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Why does herns catalogue then ascribe  bullion value to all the old silver coins not in collectible condition?These should then be stated as face value..

Just a thought.....😔

 

neil

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Cold Sea

I don't know anything about the precious metal market (of which silver is one I think) or how to interpret it, but I read this a while ago and thought I would share it:

 Forgery and defacing currency

  1. The following are all criminal offences:
    • forge, alter or issue any coins or a note of the bank (i.e. a banknote) or something purporting to be a banknote;4
    • put into circulation, tender or accept any note or coin which has been forged, altered or (unlawfully) issued, knowing it to be so;5
    • deface, soil or damage any banknote;
    • write or place any drawing on any banknote;
    • attach to any banknote anything in the nature of an advertisement;
    • deface or damage any coin which is legal tender;6 7
    • be found in possession of any bank or defective coin of the size, shape and metal composition of any coin whose production is authorised by the Act, without a satisfactory explanation.8
  2. It is an offence to engrave or mark upon any material whatsoever any words, etc. the print whereof resembles anything used upon any banknote or any coin which is legal tender.9

  3. It is an offence to use or knowingly have in your possession any material whatsoever upon which has been engraved or marked any such words, figures, letters, marks, lines or devices.10

  4. It is a crime to destroy, melt down, dissolve, break up or damage any coin.11

  5. It is a crime to remove any coin out of the Republic, or cause or permit it to be so removed, with the purpose of melting it down, etc.12

  6. It is also a crime to sell or dispose of any coin knowing or suspecting that it is to be dealt with in that matter.13
Edited by Cold Sea

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dcdoberman

So sorry , you just don't get it.

Just because a law has been passed does not simply make it so , it can be challenged for any number of reasons in a count of law.

If you don't believe me ask any Gauteng motorist or SANRAL .

This reminded me of a story : In the eighties all the big old one rand coins were disappearing from circulation at a alarming rate. The SARB new the problem was that there was one rand + some cents of nickel used in the manufacturing thereof . Their solution to this major problem was not to run around trying to prosecute but much more elegant,  just make a smaller coin !

This is exactly what happened to millions of old silver coins , they where just withdrawn, and nobody cares what happens to the 1% remaining.

Regards

P.S. Silver was deregulated in 2005. 

 

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Little Miss Muffet

Here it says LEGAL TENDER--Silver coins are no longer LEGAL TENDER

It is an offence to engrave or mark upon any material whatsoever any words, etc. the print whereof resembles anything used upon any banknote or any coin which is legal tender.9

Deface or damage any coin which is LEGAL TENDER

Here it says ANY COIN so which is it??

It is a crime to destroy, melt down, dissolve, break up or damage any coin.

 

 

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Little Miss Muffet
19 hours ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

Here it says LEGAL TENDER--Silver coins are no longer LEGAL TENDER

It is an offence to engrave or mark upon any material whatsoever any words, etc. the print whereof resembles anything used upon any banknote or any coin which is legal tender.9

Deface or damage any coin which is LEGAL TENDER

Here it says ANY COIN so which is it??

It is a crime to destroy, melt down, dissolve, break up or damage any coin.

 

 

I could not grasp what I said here myself at first

Re Cold sea's comment 

Number 2 It refers to LEGAL tender but in

Number 4 It refers to ANY coin

So which is it--Silver coins no longer exist in circulation so are not LEGAL tender

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GROOVIE COINS

Good day and compliments for the New Year.

On the topic of legal tender, I was looking at some listings and a 1994 presidential inauguration 1oz gold coin caught my eye. I noticed the coin has no face value and only exhibits its gold purity and weight.

How then is it then classified or identified as legal tender? It has the coat of arms, but so could tokens or medals. Also the other gold proteas have no coat of arms so I think it would be safe to say that a crest is not an indication of legal tender. 

Krugerrands have no face value, but are deemed legal tender. They have the word "rand" which one could loosely take as a currency designation. 

My understanding of Legal Tender is that it is an official currency issued by a country for purpose of trade or payment of debt. That being said not all legal tender coins are equal to their face value and some have a higher intrinsic value.

The purpose of putting a R1 on a silver krugerrand was more a designation of legal tender than it was to give the coin a face value of R1. We all know the bullion coin trades for its silver value and I'm almost certain that any court of law would accept it as such if push came to such when honouring debt. In the case of the silver krugerrand, the purpose is not to give the coin a value of R1, but to declare it's legal tender status and thus dissuade any type of counterfeiting or forgery.  

So what would the indicators of legal tender be? Face value, coat of arms, name of country, currency designation or a combination of these designates?

regards Robert

 

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Cold Sea

There is a difference between legal tender and demonetised. None of the monies have been demonetised. The corner shop can legally refuse to accept it because it may longer be legal tender. The Reserve Bank on the other hand cannot refuse to exchange it at it's face value, as it 's still a currency (not demonetised) which they have inherited by way of laws through the years. This means they own the metal and you only the face value. In other words, if nobody wants to buy it on BOB, they will have to.

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