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S A Banknote and Coin

Are we doing enough in this country to create interest?

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S A Banknote and Coin

Sometimes I look at the prices achieved on BOB and other sites for coins and banknotes and I wonder when will we see "decent" prices for our items?

Are the powers that be doing enough to promote numismatics amongst would ne collectors?

We have about 5 million wealthy South Africans alone? 1% = 50 000? Middle class included and this figure is much higher?

Why are we stuttering along?

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Mike Klee

I think that the prices obtained for South African coins and banknotes is a reflection of the impoverishment of the middle class.

Between increased food & fuel prices,  tax, VAT, school fees, security, medical cover, high rates and service charges - literally everything!! - there has been a huge decrease in expenses for the decreasing disposable income for the middle class. Thus, numismatics takes a back seat to savings which are now directed  simply to stay alive.

I don't know where you got the figure of 5 million wealthy South Africans, but I think that this figure is far from correct......

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jwither

There is no demonstrated correlation between the economy and the price level , not in South African and not hardly if anywhere else.  This is true of every country, except maybe a few (such as the US and UK) where the participation rate is large enough to matter.

My estimate of the South Africa collector base for coins is in the vicinity of 10,000.  I have no idea for currency except to say its almost certainly noticeably less since this is usually the pattern elsewhere.  Both a re irrelevant relative to the population and financial capacity to pay a lot more.  This number is a guess and will vary depending upon someone's definitions of "collector".  Mine excludes the outsized proportion of financial buyers which I believe exist in your country which have little if any interest in actual collecting.

I would also like to know the initial poster's definition of "decent prices".  What coins are you talking about and why do you think the prices are low?

I have written on this subject extensively in the past on this forum. It's my opinion that the price level isn't really that low, except when compared to outliers such as the USA and Australia.

If you are comparing current prices to the recent (up to YE 2011) past, that was a bubble, not a normal market.  If you or anyone else are looking for a return to "normalcy", good luck with that because the limited history available from the USA indicates it's never going to happen for anyone reading my comments, except when measured in your sinking currency.

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TradeRouteAuctions
21 hours ago, S A Banknote and Coin said:

Sometimes I look at the prices achieved on BOB and other sites for coins and banknotes and I wonder when will we see "decent" prices for our items?

Are the powers that be doing enough to promote numismatics amongst would ne collectors?

We have about 5 million wealthy South Africans alone? 1% = 50 000? Middle class included and this figure is much higher?

Why are we stuttering along?

Not only on Coins and banknotes

I have the same problem getting cost on most of the cameras and laptops listed in R 1

 

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jwither
43 minutes ago, TradeRouteAuctions said:

Not only on Coins and banknotes

I have the same problem getting cost on most of the cameras and laptops listed in R 1

 

One reason this might happen is because your cost and "retail" is above the actual market price in an auction market where the price changes, all the time.  In the USA where I live, bargaining at a retail store only happens with "bigger ticket" items but I don't know about South Africa.  So if the consumer pays retail, it may be noticeably above the undiscovered market price.

This is what may be happening with your examples.  Both cameras and laptops are mostly produced by mega corporations which operate as an oligopoly.  Sure, they compete and adjust prices in response to demand but its different than when you sell as you don't have the same market leverage.  One reason for their profits is probably their ability to leverage the information advantage they hold over the consumer buyer.

Coins have no established market value, not like a camera or laptop which sell in large volume.  Every coin is somewhat unique (to a point), excluding the most common which are "widgets" just like the consumer items you used as examples.

There is far less price discovery with coins.  Combine that with a buyer base (notice I didn't say collectors) who is overly sensitive to losing money, and "rent seeking" selling practices by sellers trying to overcharge their buyers and that's why the market is declining or stagnant.

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SILVERRHINO

I have found the coin and stamp business is vibrant , alive and prices are good. However , Bidorbuy is declining as a viable platform due to dead beat bidders being allowed , auctions mean nothing more than a cyber retail platform sale and Bidorbuy have lost touch with their community of participants.

The on line coin and stamp business is alive , just don't depend on Bidorbuy alone to form your view

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TradeRouteAuctions
On 11/27/2019 at 3:37 PM, jwither said:

One reason this might happen is because your cost and "retail" is above the actual market price in an auction market where the price changes, all the time.  In the USA where I live, bargaining at a retail store only happens with "bigger ticket" items but I don't know about South Africa.  So if the consumer pays retail, it may be noticeably above the undiscovered market price.

This is what may be happening with your examples.  Both cameras and laptops are mostly produced by mega corporations which operate as an oligopoly.  Sure, they compete and adjust prices in response to demand but its different than when you sell as you don't have the same market leverage.  One reason for their profits is probably their ability to leverage the information advantage they hold over the consumer buyer.

Coins have no established market value, not like a camera or laptop which sell in large volume.  Every coin is somewhat unique (to a point), excluding the most common which are "widgets" just like the consumer items you used as examples.

There is far less price discovery with coins.  Combine that with a buyer base (notice I didn't say collectors) who is overly sensitive to losing money, and "rent seeking" selling practices by sellers trying to overcharge their buyers and that's why the market is declining or stagnant.

Whatever you say is true however our business models and selling was excellent in the past with bidorbuy. We mostly deal with pre-owned items and selling prices are almost 40 to 50% cheaper than the new prices. Thats what was attracting customers. When we don't even get that 50% that's where we lose. It's definitely declining due to possible recession.

 

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jwither
2 hours ago, TradeRouteAuctions said:

Whatever you say is true however our business models and selling was excellent in the past with bidorbuy. We mostly deal with pre-owned items and selling prices are almost 40 to 50% cheaper than the new prices. Thats what was attracting customers. When we don't even get that 50% that's where we lose. It's definitely declining due to possible recession.

 

Can't disagree with you.

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jwither
On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 3:40 PM, SILVERRHINO said:

I have found the coin and stamp business is vibrant , alive and prices are good. However , Bidorbuy is declining as a viable platform due to dead beat bidders being allowed , auctions mean nothing more than a cyber retail platform sale and Bidorbuy have lost touch with their community of participants.

The on line coin and stamp business is alive , just don't depend on Bidorbuy alone to form your view

I don't live in South Africa.  Where else do sellers sell on-line in your country other than BoB

In the USA, I have heard Facebook and Instagram mentioned as alternatives but don't consider either viable alternatives to EBay, auction firms or dealer websites.  As flawed as the eBay feedback system is (can't "call out" deadbeat bidders), it's still better than these two.

If I understand your complaint correctly, sounds just like eBay.  eBay used to be much better place to both sell and buy.  However, it's more of a fixed retail platform now competing with Amazon than a real auction site.  Coins represent an irrelevant proportion of eBay's volume and their "one size fits all" model doesn't work as well for most sellers anymore.  Liquidity for most "collector coins" on the site has mostly collapsed from what I can see.  In the past, it wasn't risky to start listings at 99c or a "reasonable" starting bid.  Now, you might sell it at a fraction of what it is "worth".  Presumably, it's why sellers (even the ones trying to realize a sane price) opt for fixed price listings.

I'd also like to know where prices are good in your country.  By this I presume you mean you can make money doing so.  Prices of South African coins have been in freefall seven years running.

Can't remember if I mentioned it here before but the biggest weakness in coins as a business is that it is dependent upon perpetually rising prices to expand.  By this, I'm not just talking about higher revenues from higher prices.  Long term price stagnation means that sellers have to decrease their buy prices over time because their operating costs and cost of living always go up.  It's viable when collectors are both willing and able to pay perpetually higher prices but when they can't or won't, means the business model doesn't work for most in the trade.  10 years of mostly flat to falling prices here in the USA mean more sellers - collector or dealer - are losing money and it's something they haven't been used to in the past.

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