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GROOVIE COINS

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GROOVIE COINS

I have to tip my hat, I do believe this one takes the cake:

" FROM 1923 to 1942 ALL BRONZE COINS WERE ISSUED WITH A BLACK FINISH SO THAT THEY COULD BE READILY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE CURRENT GOLD COINS. FROM 1942 GOLD COINS NO LONGER CIRCULATED RED BRONZE COINS WERE ISSUED.....CONSEQUENTLY ALL RED BRONZE COINS ISSUED BEFORE 1942 ARE RARE AND SCARCE."

https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/412916060/1935_UNION_S_A_GEORGE_V_1_2_penny_RED_BRONZE_RARE_See_note_in_the_discription.html

Edited by GROOVIE COINS

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GROOVIE COINS

As far fetched as this story is, knowing gold was removed from circulation in 1932 if I'm not mistaken and knowing people of the time wouldn't be as ignorant to confuse gold for bronze (Perhaps in today's age where the general population doesn't know how anything above 9ct looks and feels). This has got me spinning in self doubt at the moment. Were early farthings deliberately darkened or are all the black coins a result of toning as I have always assumed? 

Why does 1942 seem to be a transition year for black and brown farthings? If it's indeed toning, why have no post 42 farthings subsequently blackened over the years?

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Pierre_Henri

The initials RB on slabs stand for “red brown” and not “red bronze”. (The SA Union coins were struck in 95% copper with the rest of the alloy being Tin and Zink. Bronze usually has a 12%–12.5% non-copper alloy, so the Union coins are rather copper than bronze coins)  

If one looks at the NGC population reports, Red Brown (RB) farthings before 1942 are indeed rare, but that is not the case for the Half Pennies and Pennies struck from 1929 onwards – the RB issues are fairly common. 

That being said, I think NGC is missing the boat with their color grading – they seem to give all lustrous coppers a RB grade whilst unc coins that are not lustrous are graded BN (Brown). 

Of late, their gradings of RB (Red Brown) and RD (Red) are even more difficult to understand and differentiate – it seems that when a copper coin is “very” lustrous – it suddenly is “red” according to the NGC. 

I will post pictures soon of what I think the difference between a Brown (BN), Red Brown (RB) and Red (RD) copper Union coin is.

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Pierre_Henri
1 hour ago, Pierre_Henri said:

The initials RB on slabs stand for “red brown” and not “red bronze”. (The SA Union coins were struck in 95% copper with the rest of the alloy being Tin and Zink. Bronze usually has a 12%–12.5% non-copper alloy, so the Union coins are rather copper than bronze coins)  

If one looks at the NGC population reports, Red Brown (RB) farthings before 1942 are indeed rare, but that is not the case for the Half Pennies and Pennies struck from 1929 onwards – the RB issues are fairly common. 

That being said, I think NGC is missing the boat with their color grading – they seem to give all lustrous coppers a RB grade whilst unc coins that are not lustrous are graded BN (Brown). 

Of late, their gradings of RB (Red Brown) and RD (Red) are even more difficult to understand and differentiate – it seems that when a copper coin is “very” lustrous – it suddenly is “red” according to the NGC. 

I will post pictures soon of what I think the difference between a Brown (BN), Red Brown (RB) and Red (RD) copper Union coin is.

In the following picture, two coins are shown graded BN (Brown) by the NGC – the top one looks more black to me than brown, but it seems the NGC does not differentiate between black and brown: - notice the absence of lustre on both coins.

image.png.b4201db73ae6add519e4c25453d85369.png

In the following picture, two of the three coins are graded Red Brown (RB) and one is graded Red (RD) – it is hardly worth saying that there is actually no difference between the colors of the coins. The one on the left is according to the NGC a “red” coin – how they come to that conclusion is beyond me.

image.png.c2c887bf6e4ccd44f202eb26cd67cca0.png

In the following picture there is a very clear difference between a red and a red-brown coin – both Pennies dated 1960.

image.png.d22b36851d7a40e16a4a093ee469cacd.png

The one on the left was graded by SANGS who seems to get the color right here whilst the NGC simply loses it.  

image.png.642fbb8927b64611024e84d86b1d4a87.png

Overall, in my opinion, and I have said it before, the whole color grading system by the grading companies is just a money making racket.

The more different colors they can grade, the more “varieties” there are to collect by collectors of slabbed coins willing to fill their coffers.  

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dcdoberman

Looking at the metal content of south african "coppers" it's clear that prior to 1942 these coins had a much higher content of tin , therefore making them bronze coinage ( Copper 0.955, Tin 0.030, Zinc 0.015 ) after 1942 much less tin ( Copper 0.950, Tin 0.005, Zinc 0.045 ) and prior to 1937 bronze coinage was "blackened"  by the mint.

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Cold Sea
On 5/25/2019 at 9:18 AM, dcdoberman said:

Looking at the metal content of south african "coppers" it's clear that prior to 1942 these coins had a much higher content of tin , therefore making them bronze coinage ( Copper 0.955, Tin 0.030, Zinc 0.015 ) after 1942 much less tin ( Copper 0.950, Tin 0.005, Zinc 0.045 ) and prior to 1937 bronze coinage was "blackened"  by the mint.

Both British and SA bronze coinage were blackened for more than one reason. True story and worth a study. 

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jwither
On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 12:53 PM, Pierre_Henri said:

Overall, in my opinion, and I have said it before, the whole color grading system by the grading companies is just a money making racket.

The more different colors they can grade, the more “varieties” there are to collect by collectors of slabbed coins willing to fill their coffers.  

I have commented on this subject numerous times; on the inconsistency in assigning the color designation, especially with "RD" coins which are overwhelmingly RB or don't look RD because it's a different shade of RD than when it left the mint.  This is true not just of SA coinage but others as well.

However, to claim it is a "money making racket" is factually incorrect.  NGC and PCGS are almost certainly oblivious to collecting practices in SA.  They would never create something like this as you imply because the volume is financially irrelevant to them.

The only collectors on the planet who consider all three color labels "necessary" for a "complete" set are those in your country, not anywhere else.  If anyone does not believe me, find another example.  As with everything else NGC and PCGS do, the color designations started out as a US centric practice which they apply universally to all "world" coinage because they have limited familiarity with local collecting practices.  It's the same thing with "details" grading which I have criticized numerous times both here and on US coin forums where neither service usually knows what is actually "market acceptable" to the collectors who buy a particular series. 

Contrary to some comments in multiple topics when SANGS first started, this doesn't mean that NGC and PCGS aren't capable of grading South African (or other) coinage.  It just means that their graders almost certainly do so from a US centric perspective whether in assigning the numerical grade, color designation, "market acceptability" or CAM/DCAM/UCAM designation.

South African buyers (notice I didn't just say collectors) were the ones who foolishly chose to treat the different color labels as different "varieties".  No one made them do that and as I have commented more times than I care to count, if the label on the holder mattered less than the coin it, they would not have done so.

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GROOVIE COINS
10 hours ago, jwither said:

South African buyers (notice I didn't just say collectors) were the ones who foolishly chose to treat the different color labels as different "varieties".  No one made them do that and as I have commented more times than I care to count, if the label on the holder mattered less than the coin it, they would not have done so.

I'm inclined to agree in the case of the exact same composition of coin which just exhibits different toning, but surely in the case where coins are struck from a different composition metal alloy, it should be considered a different variety?

Could two 1942 farthings one struck from bronze (dark brown to black), the other bronze with a slighty higher zinc content (red to brown) not be compared to the 1980 US penny (I could be off on the date) which saw the transition from copper to copper plated?

regards Robert

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jwither
5 hours ago, GROOVIE COINS said:

I'm inclined to agree in the case of the exact same composition of coin which just exhibits different toning, but surely in the case where coins are struck from a different composition metal alloy, it should be considered a different variety?

Could two 1942 farthings one struck from bronze (dark brown to black), the other bronze with a slighty higher zinc content (red to brown) not be compared to the 1980 US penny (I could be off on the date) which saw the transition from copper to copper plated?

regards Robert

It depends upon someone's definition of "variety".  What you are describing is what exists with the 1888 OFS "pattern" penny which is also struck in different metals.  NGC and PCGS both recognize the difference and to my knowledge, the reason they do is because this is a common practice the world over and accepted in South Africa too.  In US collecting, this also exists with the 1864 Indian Head Cent which transitioned from copper-nickel to bronze.  There are no RD or RB 1859-1863 IHC listed in either the NGC or PCGS population data and I presume it's because of the metal composition.

My point in response to Pierre's post is that the South African practice of collecting all three colors doesn't have anything to do with NGC or PCGS.  If it did and either was trying to promote it to increase submission fees, you would see a slot for each color in the Registry sets.  It isn't there and the likely reason is because they have no idea of this practice and like me, it never occurred to them that anyone would collect in this manner.  Someone can create a slot for all three colors in a "Signature Set" but that is a customized set.

I first became aware of this practice when I was liquidating most of my better coins in 2009-2010.  A collector in your country provided me with an Excel sheet of their current collection to match with what I was selling.  Their definition of a "complete" set included all three colors, just as was evident with the Bakewell collection when offered by DNW in 2014.

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Pierre_Henri
2 hours ago, jwither said:

My point in response to Pierre's post is that the South African practice of collecting all three colors doesn't have anything to do with NGC or PCGS

Where and when did I say that it is a South African practice?

My actual words were ...

"Overall, in my opinion, and I have said it before, the whole color grading system by the grading companies is just a money making racket.

The more different colors they can grade, the more “varieties” there are to collect by collectors of slabbed coins willing to fill their coffers."  

I have used pictures of Union coins to show the "differences" but never for a moment considered only South African coins when I made the comment.  

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jwither
5 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

Where and when did I say that it is a South African practice?

My actual words were ...

"Overall, in my opinion, and I have said it before, the whole color grading system by the grading companies is just a money making racket.

The more different colors they can grade, the more “varieties” there are to collect by collectors of slabbed coins willing to fill their coffers."  

I have used pictures of Union coins to show the "differences" but never for a moment considered only South African coins when I made the comment.  

Your pictures do not support your claim that the grading companies are doing it as a "money making scheme".  The only thing you demonstrated is that the color attribution is either wrong or how NGC and PCGS assign it is misunderstood.  

Sorry if it appears that I am picking on your post but I'd estimate that NGC has made about as much just from the Mandela coins versus the color designation, if not more.  However, with the color designation, I presume that NGC and PCGS didn't invent the practice since this is true of all other attributions included on the label.

No one except South African collectors collects these "varieties".  If you were familiar with the US population data, you would know that the number of "RD" represent the majority of submissions for the more common bronze and copper coins.  However, your posts have never indicated it.  This data point supports your claim more than the pictures you included but only somewhat.   

Would the number of submissions decline without the color designation?  Probably, though not by much because the volume is immaterial.  It would be most noticeable in the Lincoln Cent since this one series represents the overwhelming majority eligible for it; far more than all others US and "world" combined.  

My guess (and that's all it is) is that where it is financially driven (think the highest TPG grades) for the most common dates, it would be most noticeable.  However, even here, it isn't really economical to submit anything but the "grade rarity" and occasionally one grade below it.  The financial benefit for most Lincoln Wheat Cents as an MS or PR 66 and those dated post 1959 in MS or PR 67 is too marginal.   This is irrespective of the color.  Dealers and wholesalers will but the typical collector probably doesn't care.

NGC and PCGS have graded about 1.2MM Lincoln cents which is less than 2% of all submission volume since inception.  Of this number, probably a low to very low percentage are motivated by the color label.  The earlier Wheat cents are worth enough to submit irrespective of the color while those 2009 and later representing 25% of the total are all RD anyway, not having had enough time to change color.

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Little Miss Muffet

I would have thought the last 1960 Penny on the right in the last images is an uncirculated penny.

Surely the colour of pennies change when handled and are circulated daily.We changed to Rands and cents in 1961

and I have come across a number of these red looking UNC ?? 1960 pennies and even the circulated 1960 pennies are normally in XF condition

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