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Pierre_Henri

2000 year old coin worth R1 000 000 discovered

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Little Miss Muffet

Awesome!! I love buying the old roman etc coins when I go to the UK. However,this one is beyond my means

Edited by Little Miss Muffet
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GROOVIE COINS

I don't want to reign on the parade, but even as a novice collector I have serious reservations about the authenticity of this coin. 

Firstly who loses a gold coin? Even in ancient times this was a large sum of money to lose without somebody else recovering it. 

So let's say for a moment that a tax collector was making his way through Kent after his collections and was fallen upon by a group of bandits. The bag of money is scattered and the one coin falls into a heap of dirt and goes unnoticed unretrieved. The tax collector's life is taken. I hope I'm not being too dramatic.

So 2000 years go by of ploughing this field, children playing in the field, goats eating rocks in the field and the coin against all the odds remains undetected and happens to be found now in 2019; and coincidentally has Brexit connotation to it, because the emperor depicted on the coin seceded from the rest of roman empire. 

So let us take this even further, where gold coins struck in 24k gold during the late roman empire while the empire was crumbling and on its last legs economically? I don't know the answer to this. Perhaps Allectus wanted introduced newly minted gold coins after many years of debasement?

Another thing stands out, in the pictures of this coin, it looks flawless with no visible signs of wear and keep in mind we this is a 24k gold coin which is very soft and malleable. The only explanation could be that the coin was never put into circulation before it was lost. So perhaps the tax collector was transporting newly minted coins to the nearest administrative office before his wagon was pounced upon on that fateful day, RIP tax collector.

All jokes aside, I would take this find with a pinch of salt. 

regards Robert

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dcdoberman

This coin is the real thing, and although this particular coin is rather special,  mint state gold and silver coinage dating back 2000 years are not at all that uncommon, I myself own a number of Greek and Roman mint state coins and you can purchase these at auction for as little a $ 200 . New hoards are found from time to time and although the single coin finds and are more common , believe it or not, sometimes these coins are still  mint state coins.

The coin below value $200 ! 

 

Screenshot_2019-04-08-14-20-22.png

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Pierre_Henri

Yes I agree 100%. The gold coin was examined by the British Museum who gave it the thumbs up.

"'It was then authenticated by the British Museum and the specialist there was just as ecstatic as me. He said it was one of the best finds he had ever seen.' 

I have metal detected in England for Roman & Celtic Coins on a few trips we made there with an American and Canadian Group.

Some of the coins we found were truly in superb condition and others obviously not. Sometimes a coin hoard buried in an old clay or lead pot for a thousand years, are struck by a plough one day revealing its treasures for metal detectorists to be found in unbelievable nice condition.

detgroup.jpg

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Pierre_Henri

Here is a picture collage of me finding my oldest coin to date, A Celtic Bronze Unit from 10 BC confirmed by Dr Philip de Jersey from Oxford University - it is in "marvelous" condition!

 

Scan0002.jpg

Scan0001.jpg

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Pierre_Henri

Some more picture for those interested - the one is of me finding my first Roman coin ever - I nearly had a heart attack that day from excitement!

The second was taken near Prague in the Czech Republic detecting with two guys from the Netherlands. We mostly searched for Second World War relics 

I have also detected in South America and in the East :- where have the days gone!

Scan0002a.jpg

Scan0002b.jpg

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jwither
13 hours ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

I don't want to reign on the parade, but even as a novice collector I have serious reservations about the authenticity of this coin. 

Firstly who loses a gold coin? Even in ancient times this was a large sum of money to lose without somebody else recovering it. 

So let's say for a moment that a tax collector was making his way through Kent after his collections and was fallen upon by a group of bandits. The bag of money is scattered and the one coin falls into a heap of dirt and goes unnoticed unretrieved. The tax collector's life is taken. I hope I'm not being too dramatic.

So 2000 years go by of ploughing this field, children playing in the field, goats eating rocks in the field and the coin against all the odds remains undetected and happens to be found now in 2019; and coincidentally has Brexit connotation to it, because the emperor depicted on the coin seceded from the rest of roman empire. 

So let us take this even further, where gold coins struck in 24k gold during the late roman empire while the empire was crumbling and on its last legs economically? I don't know the answer to this. Perhaps Allectus wanted introduced newly minted gold coins after many years of debasement?

Another thing stands out, in the pictures of this coin, it looks flawless with no visible signs of wear and keep in mind we this is a 24k gold coin which is very soft and malleable. The only explanation could be that the coin was never put into circulation before it was lost. So perhaps the tax collector was transporting newly minted coins to the nearest administrative office before his wagon was pounced upon on that fateful day, RIP tax collector.

All jokes aside, I would take this find with a pinch of salt. 

regards Robert

I haven't been able to find a way to access the NGC ancients census directly but Heritage includes it in auction listings.  There are a lot of ancient coins with noticeable or even quite counts in AU or better; some even in MS.  There are a large number of ancient coins but a quite high percentage seem to be more common or a lot more common than many more recent coins, even some described as "rare".

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GROOVIE COINS
14 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

Some more picture for those interested - the one is of me finding my first Roman coin ever - I nearly had a heart attack that day from excitement!

The second was taken near Prague in the Czech Republic detecting with two guys from the Netherlands. We mostly searched for Second World War relics 

I have also detected in South America and in the East :- where have the days gone!

Scan0002a.jpg

Scan0002b.jpg

Hi Pierre

Its fascinating to think of picking up a coin that was in circulation when Jesus walked the Earth.

With regards to finding old war relics and even ancient coins in Europe. What is the procedure around them? Are you allowed to keep them and just take them through customs when you come home or to you have to apply for special permits?

Also when detecting in South Africa and coming across ancient or old coins, I've read it said about any coin older than 100 years old needs permits when leaving the country, but what about not selling it? Do you need to notify authorities (in a legal context) that you have come across an ancient coin in order to keep it? 

regards Robert

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GROOVIE COINS
8 hours ago, jwither said:

I haven't been able to find a way to access the NGC ancients census directly but Heritage includes it in auction listings.  There are a lot of ancient coins with noticeable or even quite counts in AU or better; some even in MS.  There are a large number of ancient coins but a quite high percentage seem to be more common or a lot more common than many more recent coins, even some described as "rare".

Yes I concede that I know too little about ancient coins to make a judgement and that experts have examined the coin to deem it authentic. I also agree it's not impossible to find an ancient coin that is MS.

I still have my reservations though. 

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jwither
On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:13 AM, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Yes I concede that I know too little about ancient coins to make a judgement and that experts have examined the coin to deem it authentic. I also agree it's not impossible to find an ancient coin that is MS.

I still have my reservations though. 

If this coin actually is a counterfeit, it will almost certainly be a relatively recent or a contemporary counterfeit. Per my recent post in another topic, as a numismatic fraud, going to the trouble of making one fake coin would have been a lot of work and not very profitable for practically all of the last 1700+ years.

It's an art and not a science.  I don't think that having one example to use as a basis of comparison is anywhere near as reliable as in the art world with masters paintings.  And even with art, recognized experts are occasionally wrong or don't agree with each other. 

For those who don't know it, this is presumably why NGC does not provide an authenticity guarantee on ancients.  The submitter is basically paying for a low value opinion and most buyers probably don't know there is no guarantee.

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Pierre_Henri
17 hours ago, jwither said:

If this coin actually is a counterfeit, it will almost certainly be a relatively recent or a contemporary counterfeit. Per my recent post in another topic, as a numismatic fraud, going to the trouble of making one fake coin would have been a lot of work and not very profitable for practically all of the last 1700+ years.

It's an art and not a science.  I don't think that having one example to use as a basis of comparison is anywhere near as reliable as in the art world with masters paintings.  And even with art, recognized experts are occasionally wrong or don't agree with each other. 

For those who don't know it, this is presumably why NGC does not provide an authenticity guarantee on ancients.  The submitter is basically paying for a low value opinion and most buyers probably don't know there is no guarantee.

I have never really understood the guarantee(s) that NGC offers.

I once had a 1948 (I think that was the date) Union of South Arica Two-Shilling graded because it looked more than a non-proof than a proof to me. NGC gave it an absurdly high MS grade (you will remember it was something like a MS68)

I could have sold that coin for many, many thousands of rands but as an honest dealer I send the coin back to be re-graded and it came back a proof 63 or something – its value being reduced by tens of thousands of rands.

I wrote back to NGC asking them about their “guarantee” but guess what? – They did not even bother to respond.

But all being said, bar PCGS and the British Museum perhaps, what other options do we have to certify scarce and valuable coins like the Roman gold Aureus we are talking about here?

Edited by Pierre_Henri

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jwither

Pierre,

I remember that coin, it was a 1947 2/- and I questioned it here because the MS-68 was a real outlier.  What you are describing is considered a "mechanical error", aka, label error.  They actually misattributed the coin but that is their "cop out".

However, as the submitter of a coin, I don't believe you would be eligible for the grading guarantee, as their error didn't create a loss for you; only an opportunity cost.  It would have differed (maybe) if you sold the coin and your buyer tried to claim it.

As to your question on who to rely on, there isn't anyone else probably.  But on the PCGS forum, one contributor mentioned they quit buying and dumped the ancient coins they owned in their (NGC's) holders because of it.  My observations indicate the coins sell at premiums over ungraded coins of apparent similar quality but I suspect it's mostly because the buyers think there is a guarantee where it doesn't exist.

I certainly don't see that it is the grade because ancient coin buyers (even in the US) don't like TPG or at least haven't in the past.  I suspect that a noticeable percentage of these buyers are new to it, though I don't have any data to support this opinion.

If or when I decide to change direction, ancients are one of the areas I would consider, along with medieval (such as Crusader) and earlier Spanish colonial (cheaper "royals").  Here is a Crusader coin in the upcoming Heritage auction in a few weeks.  It's Hospitaler coin from Cyprus.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/crusader-states/world-coins/crusader-states-cyprus-henry-ii-2nd-reign-1310-1324-gros-nd-choice-unc-/a/3073-32656.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Here is another gold coin (Greek island of Rhodes) in an NGC holder.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/crusader-states/crusader-states-rhodes-knights-of-st-john-anton-fluvian-gold-ducat-nd-1421-1437-ms62-ngc-/a/3073-30807.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=0|0

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Pierre_Henri
19 hours ago, jwither said:

It is interesting that you should mention this coin – called a Sequin / Zecchino / Ducat. 

According to Wikipedia, “The design of the Venetian gold ducat, or zecchino, remained unchanged for over 500 years, from its introduction in 1284 to the takeover of Venice by Napoleon in 1797. No other coin design has ever been produced over such a long historical period” 

Many years ago I did a study of gold coins that circulated at the Cape of Good Hope during the 1600s and 1700s. 

The Venetian Sequin was one of them and well known at the Cape and probably all the old colonial outposts in those days. I had one in my collection dating from the mid-1700s. 

The coin you mention is described as a gold Ducat from the Greek Island of Rhodes. Not sure why a Venetian (Italian) Coin was coined in Greece? 

In the following picture the NGC example from Rhodes is on top and a Venetian example dating from 1421-1437 below. 

 

rr.jpg

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jwither
9 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

It is interesting that you should mention this coin – called a Sequin / Zecchino / Ducat. 

According to Wikipedia, “The design of the Venetian gold ducat, or zecchino, remained unchanged for over 500 years, from its introduction in 1284 to the takeover of Venice by Napoleon in 1797. No other coin design has ever been produced over such a long historical period” 

Many years ago I did a study of gold coins that circulated at the Cape of Good Hope during the 1600s and 1700s. 

The Venetian Sequin was one of them and well known at the Cape and probably all the old colonial outposts in those days. I had one in my collection dating from the mid-1700s. 

The coin you mention is described as a gold Ducat from the Greek Island of Rhodes. Not sure why a Venetian (Italian) Coin was coined in Greece?

I don't know that the coin is actually from Rhodes, as I noticed what you did.

My assumption (maybe incorrect) is that the Hospitalers just copied the design because it was well known.  I presume there are some Venetian ducats that are scarce or rare given how long it was struck, but as a generic design, it is very common even in high quality.  I'd far prefer to own the silver coin I pictured.

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Pierre_Henri
On 4/13/2019 at 3:35 AM, jwither said:

 I'd far prefer to own the silver coin I pictured.

The second coin  is a stunner - I have seldom seen a (late) medieval coin in this crisp mint state condition - it looks as if it was struck yesterday!

Crusader States, Crusader States: Cyprus. Henry II (2nd Reign, 1310-1324) Gros NDChoice UNC, ...

Crusader States, Crusader States: Cyprus. Henry II (2nd Reign, 1310-1324) Gros NDChoice UNC, ...

 

I see that you mention that the coin is from Cyprus.

According to Wikipedia, Hospitallers, was a medieval and early modern Catholic Military Order. It was headquartered in the Kingdom of Jerusalem on the island of Rhodes, in Malta and St Petersburg (Russia) 

(Not Cyprus, so it it an enigma why the coin was struck there?)  

My wife and I visited Cyprus with my parents-in-law last year, but Malta is an Island high on my wish list.

 

 

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jwither

I might be confused and it might have been the Templars who were in Cyprus but it was one of them according to the sources I have read.  The Crusader coinage is associated with both groups.

The other better silver coinage I have seen is from Tripoli.  To me the coinage I consider to be actual Crusader coinage is from what is now modern day Israel and Lebanon (Jerusalem and Acre I believe) dated prior to 1200.  However, I don't recall ever seeing any decent examples.

Another coin I would like to own is from the First Jewish Revolt (66-70 AD).  Schekels because it's common and while still expensive in high quality, easy to buy.  This is an example of an ancient with a relatively high NGC census count.  However AU and MS coins run from about $5000 to close to $10,000 for the more common dates and varieties.  It's one of the most in-demand coins in the world.

I'd like to go to Malta also.  I think it would be a decent place to live as well, centrally located, (presumably) good climate and with a cost of living that I believe is lower than most European countries or at least the housing is from what I have heard.

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