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GROOVIE COINS

Rare pattern listing or con?

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GROOVIE COINS

Good day

I'm no expert on patterns, but the last I remember second decimal patterns have the detailed flowing hair on van Riebeeck's bust. I'm not sure if patterns were struck with the normal van Riebeeck bust.

That being said, this coin looks like a normal uncirculated 50cent piece to me, perhaps proof like? I always struggle to tell the difference as I use the mirror fields as an indicator.

This coin doesn't look like it has mirror fields, but does show some frosting on the device.

Seller has no ratings and states they are from France.

https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/406031629/Rare_1965_SA_50c_Pattern_coin.html

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dcdoberman

Hi

Let me just say that if you're in the market for this type of coin you should know your stuff or stay away as far as possible from ungraded coins and even if graded you must check and verify at NGC of PCGS with photos. If this is not possible then only buy from big auction houses like Heritage or Stacks & Bowers etc .

I was at a coin show in Las Vegas and at one of the seminars we were presented for inspection (in hand) coins in PCGS and NGC holders and told that one of each are fake, I could not tell the difference between the fake and real and no one else near me could either so  holders are no guarantee on their own. Be careful. 

Regards

 

 

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jwither

The probability of a counterfeit SA coin in a counterfeit NGC or PCGS holder is low.  It can happen but I have only heard of it for US coins.

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Cold Sea

Ask the seller why he thinks it's a pattern coin. 

20 hours ago, jwither said:

The probability of a counterfeit SA coin in a counterfeit NGC or PCGS holder is low. 

 @jwither - Why do you say this?

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither
3 hours ago, Cold Sea said:

Ask the seller why he thinks it's a pattern coin. 

 @jwither - Why do you say this?

Because it isn't really very profitable to counterfeit most SA coins, just as it isn't for most others.

Look at the coins most often counterfeited.  From what I know, the most widely (not exclusively) counterfeited at noticeable or substantial numismatic premiums are overwhelmingly US coinage and the most widely collected "world" and ancient coinage.  Coins like generic pre-1933 US gold, Morgan dollars, US "key" dates (such as the 1916-D dime), Trade dollars, Mexican pillar dollars, Spanish colonial cobs, ancient Greek and Roman.

I am aware that others are counterfeited also, such as British Sovereigns but to my knowledge, these were either contemporary counterfeits (with gold though debased) or most don't have much collectible value anyway.

Most SA coins aren't worth much money and are disproportionately scarcer than the most widely collected coins, an unappealing financial proposition for any potential counterfeiter with any economic common sense and a knowledge of collector demand.  Counterfeiting tens of thousands of Morgan dollars or Mexican pillar dollars at a few hundred USD each is a lot more profitable (and probably easier to pass undetected) than the handful of somewhat more expensive but still not very valuable SA coins that could almost certainly be sold.

This is equally true of the higher quality pillar minor coinage I collect.  Most Bolivia, Peru and Guatemala minors are so hard to find that even a handful of fake "high" quality coins would potentially raise suspicion.

I don't know how much it costs to make a good die and the counterfeit holders but doesn't seem to me that doing so for a handful of "coins" mostly worth at most in the hundreds of USD would be worth the effort.  There may be fake non-US coins in an NGC or PCGS holder out there somewhere, but it can't be many.

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dcdoberman

I'd just like to add that the coins in the holders are often not fake , but only reholdered to a higher grade. I think this is a new and smarter fake industry. 

I bet original NGC and PCGS holders are most probably manufactured in China so there's the technology transfer and fake holders are most probably the real thing .

I have noticed sellers try to hide the barcode and serial no. , but I think it's easy enough to get these if you just do a little search.

Edited by dcdoberman
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jwither
9 hours ago, dcdoberman said:

I'd just like to add that the coins in the holders are often not fake , but only reholdered to a higher grade. I think this is a new and smarter fake industry. 

I bet original NGC and PCGS holders are most probably manufactured in China so there's the technology transfer and fake holders are most probably the real thing .

I have noticed sellers try to hide the barcode and serial no. , but I think it's easy enough to get these if you just do a little search.

With US coinage, there is an issue with counterfeit TPG holders, overwhelmingly PCGS.  I don't know how big of a problem it is, but it's enough of one where both the NGC and especially PCGS forums think of it as one.

Sometimes both the coins and the holders are counterfeit and other times it's just the holder.  Yes, apparently there are genuine coins in fake holders that are over graded.

Presumably by reholdering, you are referring to "crack-outs", "reconsideration" service submissions and "cross-overs".  That's all related to "gradeflation" or where the TPG's loosen their standards over time and assign higher grades versus the past.

This is all related to the financialization of the "hobby" but to the financial promoters, what are actually irrelevant (If not imaginary) quality differences are "vitally important".  But still they say "buy the coin and not the holder" and so-and-so "bought the coin and not the holder" even as they pay inflated (or ridiculous) premiums versus one or a few grades lower.

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