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Counterfeit/plated coins

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GROOVIE COINS

Good day

 

Have we gotten to the point where Protea series rands are being forged? How long before the SA market is flooded with counterfeits on our own coinage? I realize that BOB deams it ok for people to sell replicas, gold or silver plated coins or bars as long as the listing specifies that the item is not authentic. However even though the listing has specified the coin is silver plated (and I'm not taking a knock at the seller), surely this should be regarded as a blatant forgery of a legal tender R1? 

We are not talking about some bar or currency from elsewhere, but an actual counterfeit of a modern South African legal tender coin. 

181204141534_2008spR silver plated.jpg

181204141534_2008spR2 silver plated.jpg

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Pierre_Henri
1 hour ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Good day

 

Have we gotten to the point where Protea series rands are being forged? How long before the SA market is flooded with counterfeits on our own coinage? I realize that BOB deams it ok for people to sell replicas, gold or silver plated coins or bars as long as the listing specifies that the item is not authentic. However even though the listing has specified the coin is silver plated (and I'm not taking a knock at the seller), surely this should be regarded as a blatant forgery of a legal tender R1? 

We are not talking about some bar or currency from elsewhere, but an actual counterfeit of a modern South African legal tender coin. 

181204141534_2008spR silver plated.jpg

181204141534_2008spR2 silver plated.jpg

Can you give us a link to the listing please?

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jwither
On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:47 AM, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Good day

 

Have we gotten to the point where Protea series rands are being forged? How long before the SA market is flooded with counterfeits on our own coinage? I realize that BOB deams it ok for people to sell replicas, gold or silver plated coins or bars as long as the listing specifies that the item is not authentic. However even though the listing has specified the coin is silver plated (and I'm not taking a knock at the seller), surely this should be regarded as a blatant forgery of a legal tender R1? 

We are not talking about some bar or currency from elsewhere, but an actual counterfeit of a modern South African legal tender coin. 

 

 

What does SA law say about it?

In the USA, it will be a criminal offense.  The Hobby Protection Act permits replicas of US coinage as long as "COPY" is placed on the obverse or reverse as required but I doubt the US government would tolerate it for an NCLT dated 1988.  Unlike SA, US coinage dating back to 1793 remains legal tender with a few exceptions (e.g., Trade dollars).

To give you an idea of the extremes the US government will take to prevent it, the issuer of the "Liberty Dollar" was prosecuted and convicted of illegally issuing facsimiles of US currency.  There is nothing remotely similar between a "Liberty Dollar" and any US currency, either past or present.  The real reason was because the US government took exception and wanted to make an example out of anyone who has the audacity to issue any circulating currency, even though it was basically equivalent to trade script or a store credit.

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Pierre_Henri
13 hours ago, jwither said:

What does SA law say about it?

In the USA, it will be a criminal offense.  The Hobby Protection Act permits replicas of US coinage as long as "COPY" is placed on the obverse or reverse as required but I doubt the US government would tolerate it for an NCLT dated 1988.  Unlike SA, US coinage dating back to 1793 remains legal tender with a few exceptions (e.g., Trade dollars).

To give you an idea of the extremes the US government will take to prevent it, the issuer of the "Liberty Dollar" was prosecuted and convicted of illegally issuing facsimiles of US currency.  There is nothing remotely similar between a "Liberty Dollar" and any US currency, either past or present.  The real reason was because the US government took exception and wanted to make an example out of anyone who has the audacity to issue any circulating currency, even though it was basically equivalent to trade script or a store credit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar_(private_currency)

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GROOVIE COINS
On 1/4/2019 at 11:57 PM, jwither said:

What does SA law say about it?

In the USA, it will be a criminal offense.  The Hobby Protection Act permits replicas of US coinage as long as "COPY" is placed on the obverse or reverse as required but I doubt the US government would tolerate it for an NCLT dated 1988.  Unlike SA, US coinage dating back to 1793 remains legal tender with a few exceptions (e.g., Trade dollars).

To give you an idea of the extremes the US government will take to prevent it, the issuer of the "Liberty Dollar" was prosecuted and convicted of illegally issuing facsimiles of US currency.  There is nothing remotely similar between a "Liberty Dollar" and any US currency, either past or present.  The real reason was because the US government took exception and wanted to make an example out of anyone who has the audacity to issue any circulating currency, even though it was basically equivalent to trade script or a store credit.

Good day, and Happy New Year to all on the site.

 

I'm no expert on legislation but I do know it is a criminal offence to duplicate, replicate or forge any coin or money that is legal tender, that is not identified as non-authentic. This includes distributing or exchanging money that is listed as plated or replica, but does not actually state replica on the physical coin or note. In layman's terms, even the fake krugerrands so commonly sold/listed as "plated", but do not specify token or copy on the physical piece could be regarded as distribution of forged legal tender. 

regards Robert.

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GROOVIE COINS

To add to my previous comments, even old coinage and money (according to the South African Mint website) is regarded as legal tender. Theoretically one could take a bag filled with old second decimal coinage to the South African Reserve Bank and request them to be exchanged for new coinage, and challenge any resistance (if any) in a court of law.

It's also been mentioned to me by other coin collectors that punching holes in old coins to create jewellery is technically defacing coins and thus considered illegal. 

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admin

Hi Robert,

A verbatim quote from the South African Reserve Bank Amendment Act, 1997 in particular Section 34 Offences and penalties.

(1) Subject to the provisions of section 2 of the Prevention of Counterfeiting of Currency Act, 1965 (Act 16 of 1965), any person who-
(a) forges, alters or unlawfully issues a note of the Bank or something purporting to be a note of the Bank, or any coin;
(b) utters, tenders or accepts any such note or a coin which has been forged, altered or unlawfully issued, knowing it to be forged, altered or unlawfully issued;
(c) without the authority of the Bank, engraves or makes upon any material whatsoever any words, figures, letters, marks, lines or devices the print whereof resembles in whole or in part any words, figures, letters, marks, lines or devices peculiar to and used in or upon any note of the Bank or any coin which is legal tender;
(d) without the authority of the Bank, uses or knowingly has in his possession any material whatsoever upon which has been engraved or made any such words, figures, letters, marks, lines or devices;
(e) contravenes the provisions of section 33;
(f) wilfully defaces, soils or damages any note of the Bank, or writes or places any drawing thereon or attaches thereto anything in the nature of an advertisement, or wilfully defaces or damages any coin which is legal tender;
(g) removes from the premises where coins are manufactured under this Act, without lawful authority or excuse, any matrix, master punch, die, collar, piercing and cutting tool, pattern or mould, or any other tool, machine, engine, instrument or thing used or employed in or in connection with the coining of coins, or any useful part of the several objects aforesaid, or any coin or bullion;
(h) is found in possession of any blank or defective coin of the size, shape and metal composition of any coin of which the coining is authorized by this Act, and is unable to account satisfactorily for such possession;
(i) fraudulently inserts or uses in a machine that vends merchandise or services or collects fares or tolls, anything that is intended to pass for the coin or the token of value that the machine is designed to receive in exchange for the merchandise, service, fare or toll, as the case may be;
(j) sells, exchanges or otherwise disposes of any metal reproduction of any gold coin contemplated in Schedule 2, or uses the word 'Krugerrand', 'Natura' or 'Protea', or any derivative thereof or any combination thereof with any other word in the furtherance of the sale, exchange or disposal in any other manner of such a reproduction or of any metal article of commerce;
[Para. (j) substituted by s. 10 of Act 2 of 1996.]
(k) without the written approval of the Department of Finance, intentionally destroys, melts down, dissolves in any dissolvent, breaks up or damages a coin that has been issued under section 11 of the South African Mint and Coinage Act, 1964 (Act 78 of 1964), or under section 14 of this Act, or removes any such coin out of the Republic, or causes or permits it to be so removed, with the purpose of so dealing with it or causing it to be so dealt with outside the Republic; or
(l) sells or disposes of any coin issued as contemplated in paragraph (k), knowing or suspecting that such coin is to be dealt with in a manner constituting an offence under paragraph (k),
shall be guilty of an offence and liable on conviction-

Kind regards

Andries

  • Thanks 1

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Pierre_Henri

Thank you Andries

I have a few more questions ...

Our Reserve Bank was established in 1921 and our first notes date from that year.

Our first coins were struck in 1923 by the British Royal Mint in Pretoria (All the activities of the Mint was under the control and management of the London Master of the Mint until 1941). In 1961 we became a Republic and our currency denominations changed from Sterling to Rand.

Now for the following two questions:-

1)    From what date on does one has to put a watermark (“Image Only – Not Legal Tender”) when showing an image of a SA banknote?

All notes from 1921 onward (Sterling and Rand denominations)? or only from 1961 onward (only rand denominations) from when we became a Republic? I am not sure.

2)    From what date on would it be a criminal offence to deface a SA coin or say, for the Reserve Bank to accept a certain SA coin in exchange?

All coins from 1923 onward? All coins from 1942 onward? All coins from 1961 onward? I am also not sure?

Maybe some expert can help us…

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admin

Hi Pierre,

Not being an expert by any means, I will give my 2 cents worth for your 2 questions.

1) This should answer your question there is no "pre" or "post" dates in the policy, so it will be for ALL coins and notes issued by the SARB.

2) As far as I have it, anything pre-dating 1923, is not covered by the Act

Regards

Andries

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GROOVIE COINS

Thank you for the clarity Andries.

regards Robert

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admin
8 hours ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

To add to my previous comments, even old coinage and money (according to the South African Mint website) is regarded as legal tender. Theoretically one could take a bag filled with old second decimal coinage to the South African Reserve Bank and request them to be exchanged for new coinage, and challenge any resistance (if any) in a court of law.

14 Issue of banknotes and coins
(4) The Bank shall not be obliged to make any payment in respect of a torn banknote or a banknote which, in the opinion of the Bank, is mutilated and which may be tendered to it, but may, in its discretion, make a payment in respect of such banknote

(7) The Bank shall not be obliged to make any payment in respect of a coin which, in the opinion of the Bank, is mutilated or worn away and which may be tendered to it, but may, in its discretion, make a payment in respect of such coin.

Section 15 Monetary unit was also interesting reading to me.

South African Reserve Bank Act 90 of 1989

 

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GROOVIE COINS
1 hour ago, Pierre_Henri said:

2)    From what date on would it be a criminal offence to deface a SA coin or say, for the Reserve Bank to accept a certain SA coin in exchange?

All coins from 1923 onward? All coins from 1942 onward? All coins from 1961 onward? I am also not sure?

Maybe some expert can help us…

Hi Pierre

This certainly is a interesting topic.

If one were to rock up at the famous SARB building in JHB and insist on exchanging two crowns for modern money (not that there would be any logic in this), would the exhange rate fall back to the 1961 exchange rate when rand was pegged to the pound at two to one, or would silver spot price be the given rate. Would you receive R1 or R200? Even if the exhange were pegged at spot price, I imagine the SARB would issue a rate below spot, including admin fees, etc. What about a half crown? 25 cents, even though the 5cent isn't circulated anymore, or R60? I recall paying a bill at Stnd bank a few years back, but well after the coppers were removed from circulation. Rather than round my change off to 10cent, the bank teller left her post while I waited to go and look for a two cent piece in the back room. I was gobsmacked and still keep the two cent in my copper jar to this day!

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GROOVIE COINS

Some more food for thought, would a pound note exhange at the 1961 exchange rate of R2, or could you get away with insisting current pound/rand exchange rate (R17 if I'm not mistaken). Technically South Africa was a british domain prior to 1961, could it be regarded legal tender in UK?

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Cold Sea

The coinage act of 1989 clearly states that all issues, including those listed in the 1922 coinage act is still legal tender (in other words 1923 onwards). The reserve bank will only pay the face value of these, ie R2 for a pound, 50 cents for a crown and  2.5 cents for your your tickey etc. Gold will be paid at the current bullion price. I am not sure where ZAR (trench art) and Free State fit in. I will look for a copy of the 1922 act.

Edited by Cold Sea

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Cold Sea

I've just looked at the 1990 act which also reads the same.

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GROOVIE COINS
1 hour ago, Cold Sea said:

The coinage act of 1989 clearly states that all issues, including those listed in the 1922 coinage act is still legal tender (in other words 1923 onwards). The reserve bank will only pay the face value of these, ie R2 for a pound, 50 cents for a crown and  2.5 cents for your your tickey etc. Gold will be paid at the current bullion price. I am not sure where ZAR (trench art) and Free State fit in. I will look for a copy of the 1922 act.

I'll insist on a modern 2.5cents for my tickey thank you. The 2017 heart transplant 2.5cent will do just fine...

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Cold Sea

In 1890 it was declared illegal to deface the Transvaal coins among others and had to be turned in to the authorities. It seems that all Union, British and Transvaal coins were declared legal tender by the Union's 1922 Coinage Act, with a defacement rule included. If I am correct it would mean that the Trench Art coins are also illegal.

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Pierre_Henri
4 hours ago, Cold Sea said:

In 1890 it was declared illegal to deface the Transvaal coins among others 

What Transvaal coins existed in 1890 besides the Burgers Pond?

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GROOVIE COINS
2 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

What Transvaal coins existed in 1890 besides the Burgers Pond?

If I may answer. I've been readiing up on patterns and see that 100 Transvaal pattern pennies were struck in 1890. Kruger had every intention to strike coinage and established a ZAR national bank in1890 with the assistance of European investors. Legislation on ZAR coinage was submitted to the Volksraad and approved 20 August 1890. So plans were underway to strike coinage well before 1892.

regards Robert

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Cold Sea

Hi Pierre,

The treaty between the Free State and the Transvaal signed in 1872 between Burgers and Brand mentions extradition for certain offences between the two Republics, of which false coining, defacing coins and "uttering" false coins formed part of the list. The 1890 Proclamation was signed by Lord Roberts, so there seems to be a common thread about defacement and/or altering coins throughout our coinage history. Prof Arndt in his book Mints and Coinage, interpreting the 1922 act, mentions Transvaal coins (1892 - 1902)? to be legal tender still. Coinoisseur, in a different thread, seems to be of the same opinion.You will correct me if I am wrong, but the ZAR coinage size, weight and denominations were to be based on the British circulation coinage in order to make it acceptable in all colonies. This makes it easier to understand the rationale behind this act. There are obvious gaps in the timeline on this thread, but it will be interesting to find the definitive answer. 

 

Edited by Cold Sea

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Cold Sea
The following is copied from the Reserve Bank site. You can see that ZAR and British coins are no longer legal tender. I am not sure what exactly this means.
 
"The history of minting coins in South Africa goes back to the period when South Africa comprised four separate regions that later became provinces of the Union of South Africa.  A government mint was established in Pretoria in 1890 and commenced with the domestic production of coin in 1892.  
 
After unification of South Africa in 1910 the country used British coin, as well as coin of the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republic. The latter remained legal tender until 1938, while British coin remained legal tender until 1961. Coining operations in Pretoria evolved into the South African Mint, which was established in 1923, and functioned as a division of the central government." 
Edited by Cold Sea

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Pierre_Henri
On 1/12/2019 at 3:52 PM, Cold Sea said:

Hi Pierre,

The treaty between the Free State and the Transvaal signed in 1872 between Burgers and Brand mentions extradition for certain offences between the two Republics, of which false coining, defacing coins and "uttering" false coins formed part of the list. The 1890 Proclamation was signed by Lord Roberts, so there seems to be a common thread about defacement and/or altering coins throughout our coinage history. Prof Arndt in his book Mints and Coinage, interpreting the 1922 act, mentions Transvaal coins (1892 - 1902)? to be legal tender still. Coinoisseur, in a different thread, seems to be of the same opinion.You will correct me if I am wrong, but the ZAR coinage size, weight and denominations were to be based on the British circulation coinage in order to make it acceptable in all colonies. This makes it easier to understand the rationale behind this act. There are obvious gaps in the timeline on this thread, but it will be interesting to find the definitive answer. 

 

Hi Derick

If Lord Roberts signed the 1890 Proclamation it must have been 10 years later as his troops only entered Pretoria a decade later when he took control of the ZAR.  I am not even sure what that proclamation was. What is the heading of the proclamation?

If I remember correctly, ZAR and English coins circulated in the Union South Africa until the early 1930s.

There was a gap of 10 years however - the ZAR coins were only declared legal from 1910 or 1911 onward when we became a Union - before that, they were not legally recognized in Natal and the Cape Province. 

They obviously did not circulate much outside the Transvaal after the Boer War, but I indeed metal detected a 1896 Tickey on Blueberg Strand (Cape Province) a couple of years ago. 

Regards

 

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Cold Sea

Hi Pierre, Robert's troops occupied Pretoria during the Second Boer War on 5 June 1900, ending with the treaty of Vereeniging on 31 May, 1902. The proclamation forms part of The Statutory Proclamations of the Transvaal, 1900 - 1902.

 

proc1-1.thumb.jpg.6dba54bbb8dd5066a240d4a3338809b1.jpg

 

Edited by Cold Sea

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Cold Sea

Apologies Pierre, I've only noticed my mistake now. 1900 not 1890.

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