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The Watch World

Clarification required from BoB regarding the ludicrous new fee structure

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Little Miss Muffet
1 hour ago, johan said:

The bitcoin payments are processed through an exchange and you receive the Rand amount for the transaction. 

This means that you do not have to open a bitcoin wallet and you are also not open to the volatility of the Bitcoin exchange rate. 

But what if I want the bitcoin?

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

JOHAN,seeing the prompt response could u please look at this ticket id qrc-874-49296-please treat as EXTREMELY urgent

NEIL

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Johan
2 hours ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

But what if I want the bitcoin?

I check in on this and you have to be an exchange in order to do that. I do not see us getting into that business any time soon :-)

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Deonrick
11 hours ago, johan said:

This is strange Deonrick, because we are currently speaking to each other on a ticket where you have submitted an blank PAIA request form wanting to obtain bidorbuy's financials. I think it is fair to expect that when you request information that you complete the application form prescribed by law, before you accuse us of not engaging with you. I would add to this that it would also be a good idea to go and read the act because it is very clear in the type of information you can request and what information is not available. 

We have addressed your questions through the customer service portal and we have engaged with you in the past week regarding your listing practices used to vent your frustration. In your questions we might not have given you the answers that you want to hear like for instance giving you free listing coupons as you requested or advertising more on Jackaranda FM, but we are engaging with you. 

As for dealing with David: He is more than capable to assist you in this matter and most of the users that have dealt with him before on various issue I am sure would attest to this. 

I think we need to move forward from this and if you wish to engage in a meaningful way we are here. 

 

 

 

Many thanks. 

My apologies, we are having some family issues, and I have decided to no longer request them, As we are going to try and move forward from this point. 

I would still really appreciate feedback on my questions where possible. 

As per your advice, i will email the questions through again to David, for his attention. 

Kindest Regards

Deta 

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Decor King

We sell large items (furniture) and the costs on transporting some of these items (specially over long distances) are obviously much higher than for small items. Sometimes as much as R 3500 for a lounge suite to be delivered in CT from Gauteng. We deal with transport companies for out of Gauteng deliveries and contractors for local deliveries and we also sometimes do the odd local delivery ourselves if the items are easy to carry (since my partner and I are both fast approaching senior citizenship). Since this new development with charges being slapped on cost of delivery I figured it may well be in my own as well as my buyer's best interest to delete all shipping options with a price tag attached from my profile completely. Under shipping there will only be an explanation that from 1 March 2018 all shipping arrangements must be initiated by the buyer, dealing directly with relevant contractor/courier/shipping company and payment is to be made directly to the third party (shipping company/contractor) as well and that we will no longer be involved in shipping arrangements whatsoever or accept shipping charges as part of the total selling price on the purchase order. All we will do is to let the customer know when their product is ready to be shipped.  Upon placement of an order the buyer will receive a list of transport companies to contact for quotations and if they do not accept the shipping price of course we will file SNC and the reason will simply state "buyer and seller agreed to cancel the deal" or whatever it states exactly, point being that no negative backlash will be incurred for cancellation. More SNC's for bob to deal with and for me to put up with.

Problem is that I simply cannot subsidise delivery fees as well as carry the extra success fee on the small mark-up margin we operate on. So if I delete all shipping options it may well be a blessing in disguise because buyers will start to realise what they were paying for in the past (the headache of acquiring shipping quotations, making numerous phone calls liaising between buyer and courier, organising and paying for shipping of goods) and become more educated on the actual work involved as well as the actual cost of shipping in this country and subsequently stop blaming sellers and stop whining about transport costs altogether. As it is, sales have been dwindling for us due to over-saturation of Gauteng furniture market and most buyers who get quotes from us for shipping to other parts of the country simply disappear never to be seen or heard from again and I often wonder if they think we determine the prices for shipping ourselves or that we for some obscure reason inflate it on purpose. I am just wondering if this "no shipping options" idea will be allowed? Alternatively perhaps bidorbuy would like to start their own shipping company exclusively for bob users with reasonable pricing on all items to increase sales across the board for all of us which - for me at least - would be fantastic news.

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Deonrick
1 hour ago, Decor King said:

We sell large items (furniture) and the costs on transporting some of these items (specially over long distances) are obviously much higher than for small items. Sometimes as much as R 3500 for a lounge suite to be delivered in CT from Gauteng. We deal with transport companies for out of Gauteng deliveries and contractors for local deliveries and we also sometimes do the odd local delivery ourselves if the items are easy to carry (since my partner and I are both fast approaching senior citizenship). Since this new development with charges being slapped on cost of delivery I figured it may well be in my own as well as my buyer's best interest to delete all shipping options with a price tag attached from my profile completely. Under shipping there will only be an explanation that from 1 March 2018 all shipping arrangements must be initiated by the buyer, dealing directly with relevant contractor/courier/shipping company and payment is to be made directly to the third party (shipping company/contractor) as well and that we will no longer be involved in shipping arrangements whatsoever or accept shipping charges as part of the total selling price on the purchase order. All we will do is to let the customer know when their product is ready to be shipped.  Upon placement of an order the buyer will receive a list of transport companies to contact for quotations and if they do not accept the shipping price of course we will file SNC and the reason will simply state "buyer and seller agreed to cancel the deal" or whatever it states exactly, point being that no negative backlash will be incurred for cancellation. More SNC's for bob to deal with and for me to put up with.

Problem is that I simply cannot subsidise delivery fees as well as carry the extra success fee on the small mark-up margin we operate on. So if I delete all shipping options it may well be a blessing in disguise because buyers will start to realise what they were paying for in the past (the headache of acquiring shipping quotations, making numerous phone calls liaising between buyer and courier, organising and paying for shipping of goods) and become more educated on the actual work involved as well as the actual cost of shipping in this country and subsequently stop blaming sellers and stop whining about transport costs altogether. As it is, sales have been dwindling for us due to over-saturation of Gauteng furniture market and most buyers who get quotes from us for shipping to other parts of the country simply disappear never to be seen or heard from again and I often wonder if they think we determine the prices for shipping ourselves or that we for some obscure reason inflate it on purpose. I am just wondering if this "no shipping options" idea will be allowed? Alternatively perhaps bidorbuy would like to start their own shipping company exclusively for bob users with reasonable pricing on all items to increase sales across the board for all of us which - for me at least - would be fantastic news.

I think you deserve a medal. 

BoB should start their own post office and courier service with rates that are cheaper than what we get. They can then also supply us with the packaging materials!

You are a pure Genius!

I think i will be following suit. 

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Little Miss Muffet

I think an increase in fees is warranted but Bidorbuy have really made me feel very disappointed that they want to charge us on postage.

It makes no sense (and less sense after reading above posts) .I pay R500 and R300 for packaging materials,have to source boxes from retailers,use fuel to go to the Post Office,Pack and post these items with care and have being subsidising postage where ever necessary.This is so unfair.If only Bob would explain to us why they have reached this conclusion we may understand--Although I cannot see it ever making sense

The high percentage on antiques and collectables is hard to swallow as these items are hard to find and take much more effort and cost than sellers who have constant suppliers.

Edited by Little Miss Muffet

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Rare NotesCoins

They can just delete the Krugerrand category and say goodbye to all the gold coins that has been traded on Bob. It becomes more expensive to sell on BOB that to melt.

So that is  revenue lost for bid or buy. We also have to increase the listing price from as little as 10% to facilitate the fees, making the coins to expensive to buy and thus loosing more revenue.

 

But here is my 2 cents worth. Why is the CEO of BOB in the USA for 3 months? To establish BIDORBUY.COM. Why is that important? Because they need to invest heavily into bob.com and thus stepping on eBay territory to push them to buy bidorbuy. So there is a plan behind this..... But in the end we all loose.

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Rare NotesCoins

Also on the Bitcoin issue. You will not receive bitcoin when you are paid with it. Andy Higgins the founder of Bidorbuy is also the founder (with Others ) of Luno. The biggest South African exchange that buys and sells bitcoins.

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Little Miss Muffet
28 minutes ago, Rare NotesCoins said:

They can just delete the Krugerrand category and say goodbye to all the gold coins that has been traded on Bob. It becomes more expensive to sell on BOB that to melt.

So that is  revenue lost for bid or buy. We also have to increase the listing price from as little as 10% to facilitate the fees, making the coins to expensive to buy and thus loosing more revenue.

 

But here is my 2 cents worth. Why is the CEO of BOB in the USA for 3 months? To establish BIDORBUY.COM. Why is that important? Because they need to invest heavily into bob.com and thus stepping on eBay territory to push them to buy bidorbuy. So there is a plan behind this..... But in the end we all loose.

I was thinking the same thing.There is something behind this,I am sure.

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anthony03

Well Bid or Buy if there is no change in your policy before the 28th February, the 1st March will be my last dealings with your company. Hopefully we will get a startup company who cares for it's sellers in future.

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Allstar

Decor King makes a good point, shipping is sometimes unavoidably extremely expensive due to the nature of the goods sold, furniture for one.

Using his example how can it be feasible to pay another R236 on top of the R3500 shipping, who pays that?

Bidorbuy encourages users not to overcharge for shipping so in that instance if the seller respects that and charges the buyer the courier fee with no markup can he expect the buyer to foot the R236 fees commission bill on the R3500 shipping?

Edited by Allstar

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Here is another conundrum,all sales made on wed 28 feb ,and there are thousands as that is crazy wed sales ,but the buyers only complete orders the next day or later,these will be subject to old fees as they are payable when sale is made ,but will incur the new shipping fee on final order amount when order is completed.One can tell the buyers to complete all orders by 12pm on wed 28th but they hardly listen or read any communication normally so whats the chances they will adhere and save some money,Now we sellers must adjust our shipping prices from now so buyers do not get suprise with new shipping prices and will have to adjust again next month when SAPO raises their prices-If we do double adjustment now the buyers will feel that we ripping them off-Will the system be set up for all of this and can we expect any downtime on the thursday following these implementations?

NEW fees should be implemented 1 march (if inevitable) and shipping fees from 1 april  ( if inevitable) just so we can make necessary arrangements and update shipping charges once and not twice!!

Neil

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TacQM

First post and it is to complain: The new increase in rates is astronomical and really going to hurt us. My Boss is not happy about it and is considering other options. 

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Decor King

I looked at all my old sales and calculated the fees with the new structure compared to the old structure when a buyer used Mobicred and honestly even with the commission on delivery the fees came to less with the new structure than with the old so there is something at least. :o. Then again, for 99% of our sales the buyers used EFT and nobody ever complained or asked to pay with any other method so there is that.

One of the 'reasons' for the increase I saw someone say somewhere is that we will be able to offer all the payment options without incurring more fees and somewhere else someone said all payment options will be compulsory as from 1 March 2018. Will that truly increase our sales? Who knows.

I need someone from bidorbuy to 1) Verify that credit card payment will be compulsory 2) What if I refuse?

Fact is that credit card fraud is a much bigger problem than the high fees attached and that is the main reason why I just decided to steer clear of it altogether. So now I wonder who has to fit the bill if some idiot pays with a stolen credit card and it gets reversed two or three weeks later long after delivery has taken place? Not me I can assure you. Not if I am being forced to activate credit card payment option against my better judgement.

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Allstar

I'd also like to know how Bidorbuy will protect us regarding credit card charegbacks or reversals, Johan can you please clarify that for us?

I'd also like know if accepting credit card payment will be compulsory?

That's the main reason I don't accept creditcard payments, I can't afford a R5000 chargeback.

Edited by Allstar

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Johan

The questions about payment methods are relevant and I will try to give some clarity on this. 

From the 1st of March 2018 we are making the following payment methods mandatory. 

  • Bobpay EFT
  • Bobpay Cash Deposit. 
  • Bob bucks vouchers.

We will not enforce any other methods at this stage.

Other payments that I would recommend that users turn on in addition to the above methods are: 

  • S-Code
  • Snapscan
  • Bitcoin
  • Mobicred
  • Discovery Miles

The reason that we would recommend these options is that there are no chargeback risk on these payments, we are considering making these options mandatory in future but not as yet.  These options offer a wide range of payment options and already does a lot to make it easier for buyers and sellers to do business with each other. 

  • Bobpay Credit Card. 

We will not be making this mandatory at this stage because as some of the users mentioned there are risks of chargebacks on these payments currently.

We must add that since the introduction of 3D secure the banks do provide more cover than before and these payments are a lot less risky. This is because in order for a card to be used the user of the card needs to be in possession of the card,  the pin code and in most cases the phone or banking app linked to the card. These changes has reduced the number of fraudulent transactions dramatically, and it has also reduced the merchants risk as transactions will not be charged back where a user has caused his account to be compromised. Banks also cater in their reversal process for sellers to dispute a reversal,  for example orders where a charge-back is filed will not be processed when the seller can prove that the correct items were indeed delivered. 

So this process has come a long way in reducing the risks to both parties in transactions. We also assist sellers who are not sure about the authenticity of a payment where we can give them advice to guide them in deciding if they want to accept the payment or not.  The seller still has the final say in accepting or declining a credit card payment on every card transaction as a final fail safe, to ensure that they only accept payments they are comfortable with.  

So even though we cannot guarantee 100% the authenticity of every payment the risks associated with the payment is very small and we will continue to look into ways in which we can reduce or even remove the risks with credit card payments. 

I hope this has provided some clarity.

 

 

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The World OnLine

I have been reading this silently for a while and coudnt resist posting this ...

Check out the description :)

image.png.fd2177302d7f77e7527ad89a798f385f.png

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Allstar

Johan can you expand on this please:

" Banks also cater in their reversal process for sellers to dispute a reversal,  for example orders where a charge-back is filed will not be processed when the seller can prove that the correct items were indeed delivered.  "

What evidence will banks be expecting from sellers to facilitate a charge-back not being processed?

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Little Miss Muffet
13 hours ago, The World OnLine said:

I have been reading this silently for a while and coudnt resist posting this ...

Check out the description :)

image.png.fd2177302d7f77e7527ad89a798f385f.png

Well it is still open.User is still around. We can threaten.B*^ch but nothing is going to change.We can put it in our pipes and smoke it.

As my son says "Don't let it consume you".We are being ripped off by banks,government,food retailers etc.etc.

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Johan
34 minutes ago, Allstar said:

Johan can you expand on this please:

" Banks also cater in their reversal process for sellers to dispute a reversal,  for example orders where a charge-back is filed will not be processed when the seller can prove that the correct items were indeed delivered.  "

What evidence will banks be expecting from sellers to facilitate a charge-back not being processed?

In the past we have provided banks with proof of delivery documents such as signed waybills from provided by couriers etc. to dispute chargebacks and we have been quite successful in cases where we have supporting documentation to substantiate our dispute. 

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Allstar
1 minute ago, johan said:

In the past we have provided banks with proof of delivery documents such as signed waybills from provided by couriers etc. to dispute chargebacks and we have been quite successful in cases where we have supporting documentation to substantiate our dispute. 

And if it was a post office delivery?

And what would happen if it was a stolen credit card that was used by a 3rd party, the order was delivered to the person/bidorbuy account that ordered the item and there is waybill proof thereof but they used stolen a credit card to make the payment, does the bank do a chargeback regardless in that instance?

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Johan
45 minutes ago, Allstar said:

And if it was a post office delivery?

And what would happen if it was a stolen credit card that was used by a 3rd party, the order was delivered to the person/bidorbuy account that ordered the item and there is waybill proof thereof but they used stolen a credit card to make the payment, does the bank do a chargeback regardless in that instance?

Post office deliveries have tracking details and you can in most cases obtain a proof of delivery. 

With regards to stolen cards. We enforce 3D secure on all card transactions and will only conclude transactions with local cards if they are enrolled for 3D secure. This means for a card to be used the user must be in possession of the card and the pin number. There is also an one time pin sent to phone or email address linked to the account to be entered to conclude the transaction. Transaction that go through this process has reduced the number of stolen cards use dramatically. 

Also with 3D secure there is a much bigger onus on the card holder to keep his details secure so if his card, pin and phone gets compromised in some way that is seen to be the fault of the Card holder or the Bank the Merchant who supplied the goods will not be held liable. 

 

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Allstar
22 minutes ago, johan said:

Post office deliveries have tracking details and you can in most cases obtain a proof of delivery. 

With regards to stolen cards. We enforce 3D secure on all card transactions and will only conclude transactions with local cards if they are enrolled for 3D secure. This means for a card to be used the user must be in possession of the card and the pin number. There is also an one time pin sent to phone or email address linked to the account to be entered to conclude the transaction. Transaction that go through this process has reduced the number of stolen cards use dramatically. 

Also with 3D secure there is a much bigger onus on the card holder to keep his details secure so if his card, pin and phone gets compromised in some way that is seen to be the fault of the Card holder or the Bank the Merchant who supplied the goods will not be held liable. 

 

So just to confirm on all local Bidorbuy cc transactions will only be processed with 3D secure and therefore due to the 3D secure authorisation the chances of a chargeback in that case is very slim?

And intl CC card transactions with no 3D secure?

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Serthentia Sales
4 minutes ago, Allstar said:

So just to confirm on all local Bidorbuy cc transactions will only be processed with 3D secure and therefore due to the 3D secure authorisation the chances of a chargeback in that case is very slim?

And intl CC card transactions with no 3D secure?

I would not agree that they are slim. Yes, 3D Secure has vastly lowered chargeback fraud under the guise of "i didnt approve this transaction". But chargeback fraudsters have worked around that using "the product I received is not what I purchased". It is very easy for a chargeback fraudster to receive the package, open it, remove the correct product inside and put some cheap piece of junk inside the box. He then takes photos of the box with the item he has placed in there, and states that is what he received. In that case, the onus is 100% on the seller to prove that the item sent was the correct item, otherwise the chargback is processed by the bank and the seller loses the money and the product. Even by taking photos or video of every package as ity is packed is not sufficient proof that the correct item was sent, as the buyer just tells his bank that the seller must have taken those photos and then just repackaged it afterwards to scam him with the wrong item when in fact it is the buyer who has actually done that. It is your word against his, and the buyer will be sided with 100% of the time in trhat situation, as VISA and MASTERCARD chargeback rgulations state that the full onus of proof is on the merchant alone. A friend of mine in the UK who sells on ebay has had this happen a few times (and with actual chargebacks, not paypal buyer protection) and his packaging is fully monitored by CCTV. The proof from that is not enough for banks if the buyer says that the goods are not the same and submits photos of the item he replaced in the box.

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