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Clarification required from BoB regarding the ludicrous new fee structure

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Allstar
2 minutes ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

Have Bidorbuy being paying vat on commission all these years ? If so their commission 5% on R1000 = R50 less 14% R7 = R43 -not much considering the nonsense they sometimes have to put up with.

It seems Bidorbuy have gone from reasonable to unreasonable

If you look at your previous Bidorbuy fee's invoice it shows the breakdown and the vat portion, the 5% commission included the vat.

Some marketing idiot at Bidorbuy thought "Hey people are stupid if we release the new rates excluding the vat it'll make the insane increases look less insane and more palatable, no one will notice..."  Vat is non negotiable so the 8.75% commission is in fact 9.97% if stated as the commission were previously stated by Bidorbuy.

The final order value fees is also excluding vat its not 5.75% its 6.55%(incl vat).

Hence old rate 5%(incl vat) new highest rate 9.97%(including vat) + 6.55%(incl vat) on shipping

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Little Miss Muffet

Vat is already included in Post Office charges so I cannot see that charging us vat on postage is legal

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Best Bargains For All

Hi Miss Muffet.

I must totally disagree with you. The majority of sellers would have no problem with a reasonable increase in fees. But doubling the fees like this, as well as penalizing certain categories with a "super-tax" (the majority of which are low value items in those categories with already low profit margins), together with charging a percentage on the shipping costs and making us do all the calculations by not including VAT in the actual prices, all of this is unacceptable and is a slap in the face to us hard working sellers, the ones who actually pay BoB's salaries.

Also by forcing us to accept all payment methods and incorporating the fees for such into the commissions, they are severely reducing our profit margins.  A LOT of sellers operate on very small margins here, I am talking around 5% margins. How can these sellers take an extra 3.5% off of the margin to accept the credit card processing fees which are now mandatory? Do you really believe that these sellers who are the majority, are going to continue selling on BoB? No, because we will end up paying more than what we actually receive when everything is taken into account. A seller must be allowed to decide what payment methods he/she is willing to accept, based around the sellers own business model and profit margins, whether this is actually affordable or not for each seller individually. That is free market principle. This is not a communist state we are living in. It is a democracy where free market principle apply.

Auctions will completely die, especially the R1 auctions which are what attract 90% of buyers. BoB will become a site full of BUY NOW items, which will basically make it just another classified site like Junkmail, Gumtree or OLX, except with very high fees.

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Best Bargains For All
13 minutes ago, Allstar said:

If you look at your previous Bidorbuy fee's invoice it shows the breakdown and the vat portion, the 5% commission included the vat.

Some marketing idiot at Bidorbuy thought "Hey people are stupid if we release the new rates excluding the vat it'll make the insane increases look less insane and more palatable, no one will notice..."  Vat is non negotiable so the 8.75% commission is in fact 9.97% if stated as the commission were previously stated by Bidorbuy.

The final order value fees is also excluding vat its not 5.75% its 6.55%(incl vat).

Hence old rate 5%(incl vat) new highest rate 9.97%(including vat) + 6.55%(incl vat) on shipping

Exactly. But that is exactly what Bid or Buy is doing. This whole process from Bid or Buy smacks of greed and non-transparency

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Asha Craft
2 minutes ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

Vat is already included in Post Office charges so I cannot see that charging us vat on postage is legal

Bidorbuy tells us that we must charge actual shipping costs, with a tiny bit extra to cover bubblewrap etc. So if courier costs R90, add R5 for bubblewrap. So client is charged R95 for courier. Thats fair according to Bidorbuy. But now I have to increase that to R101.22 to cover BIDORBUY's share of the non-existent pie. So they are saying we may not add any charges, yet they are forcing us to break their rules, to cover the 6.65% they WANT and certainly cannot come from our pockets, so who loses?? THEIR BUYERS!!!!

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Allstar
10 minutes ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

Vat is already included in Post Office charges so I cannot see that charging us vat on postage is legal

The final value commission of 5.75% or 6.55%(incl vat) is charged on whatever the seller charges over and above the cost of the actual items ordered.

So that is whether you use the Post Office/Courier or charge a packaging/handling fee, insurance, whatever it is,  bidorbuy will now take 6.55% of what you receive from the buyer for those charges over and above the value of the goods.

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Little Miss Muffet

Also by forcing us to accept all payment methods and incorporating the fees for such into the commissions, they are severely reducing our profit margins.  A LOT of sellers operate on very small margins here, I am talking around 5% margins.

These must be high value items or volume.I need to sell at least at 150 % mark up to see a reasonable profit

I marketed for 20 years before joining bob 10 years ago/

Just would love to slap on a price

No more photographing,no editing,no listing, no posting no demanding buyers and most of all no supporting the SAPO--LovelyB|

Still trying to find out if this is legal and who gets this vat already charged by the SAPO

Vat is already included in Post Office charges so I cannot see that charging us vat on postage is legal

Edited by Little Miss Muffet

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Seeds for Africa

You would think with all the comments and general unhappiness with sellers - some of whom have been loyal bobbers for years that bob would at least have commented on this!!!!

Bidorbuy........... your silence is deafening!!!!!!!!!

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Little Miss Muffet

As I said

Sellers who have been on Bidorbuy for a number of years have built up a clientele and Bidorbuy may find they will try and bypass the fees.I am sure some users already do this

I know I could phone some buyers and offer them certain collectors items in order to bypass the fees.It is not something I ever do, or intend doing, but it could encourage this practice.

Just been asked

Thank you for your patience,Pamela.Have you got any more coins floating around.?.On auction or send me a short list,thanks.?.Nico.

Hi Yes nine 5/- came in yesterday--Will send images.Do you mind if we bypass Bob fee:D

Edited by Little Miss Muffet
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Best Bargains For All
11 minutes ago, Seeds for Africa said:

You would think with all the comments and general unhappiness with sellers - some of whom have been loyal bobbers for years that bob would at least have commented on this!!!!

Bidorbuy........... your silence is deafening!!!!!!!!!

I actually phoned BoB a couple of hours ago and informed then that we are awaiting their response to this outrage on the forum... And they obviously cannot be bothered

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zerohour

BOB replied to a similar question earlier today on social media. Here..

"We understand that this is quite a big adjustment, however there are many benefits of this new introduction. Please see below:

The reasons we are changing the fee structure is due to the following limitations of the old (current) fee structure:

1. The sliding scale fee percentage, which calculates the fee according to the sales value is complicated for customers to work out.
2. There are currently transaction fees attached to other payment methods including Credit Card, Discovery Miles, SnapScan and Mobicred.
3. There are also additional fees for buyers who pay with cash deposit.
4. It is restrictive for products with low margins such as computers where sellers struggle to sell the goods and use all the payment methods available to them.

The benefit of the new fee structure include:

1. It will be clearer what the fees include as there is a flat-fee per category and other charges.
2. There will be no payment transaction fees for sellers as this will now be included in the success fees
3. No cash deposit fees for buyers

In the past the success fee and payment fee was charged separately, these charges are now combined into one charge.

If you have any further questions or queries, please feel free to ask. We hope that over time you will find this new fee structure quite useful and beneficial"

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ATA STAMP CENTRE
33 minutes ago, zerohour said:

BOB replied to a similar question earlier today on social media. Here..

"We understand that this is quite a big adjustment, however there are many benefits of this new introduction. Please see below:

The reasons we are changing the fee structure is due to the following limitations of the old (current) fee structure:

1. The sliding scale fee percentage, which calculates the fee according to the sales value is complicated for customers to work out.
2. There are currently transaction fees attached to other payment methods including Credit Card, Discovery Miles, SnapScan and Mobicred.
3. There are also additional fees for buyers who pay with cash deposit.
4. It is restrictive for products with low margins such as computers where sellers struggle to sell the goods and use all the payment methods available to them.

The benefit of the new fee structure include:

1. It will be clearer what the fees include as there is a flat-fee per category and other charges.
2. There will be no payment transaction fees for sellers as this will now be included in the success fees
3. No cash deposit fees for buyers

In the past the success fee and payment fee was charged separately, these charges are now combined into one charge.

If you have any further questions or queries, please feel free to ask. We hope that over time you will find this new fee structure quite useful and beneficial"

Guess where ex BELL POTTINGER employees are now employed!!

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Allstar

Guys just a headsup, in the grand scheme of things almost no one is on this forum.

If you want to get attention to this outrageous increase you need to spread it on Facebook, Twitter etc, any platform outside of Bidorbuy where it will get wide exposure including in the media and to the public. Go forth and disseminate the info!!

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Johan

I have read the some of the comments on the forum and I think it is worth pointing out what has lead to these changes. The reasons for the changes in the fees are three fold and I will cover them all. 

1. Payments .

In order to provide users of the site with a better experience we have strived to break down the barriers of people doing business. One of the main drivers of this is offering the customer as many payment options as possible. These payment options would include Credit Card, EFT, Bob Bucks vouchers, Discovery miles, Bitcoin, S-Code, Mobicred etc. 

Thes payment methods have been widely embraced by both buyers and sellers and this is something that we intend to grow to lower the barrier of Buyers and Sellers doing business with each other. Most of these payment methods like Credit Cards, and Mobicred does have a processing fee that we currently levy on the full purchase amount, as this is the amount processed for the particular transaction. 

So currently if you sell an item for under R1,000.00 and the buyer pays with Credit card we will charge you a 5% success fee and a 5% Credit Card processing fee which will add to it costing roughly 10% to do the transaction. 

With the new fee rates depending on the category this exact same transaction would cost. 

- 8.75% + 14% VAT = 9.98% 

- 7.50% + 14% VAT = 8.55%

- 5.75 + 14% VAT = 6.56%

Depending on the category and the payment method this could mean that some transactions would cost less than what it currently does on the current fee structure. Users who do not offer more payment options than bobpay EFT would feel that fees are increased but they are now free to take advantage of the all the payment methods available on the site. 

With the new fee structure we are encouraging sellers to use more ot the payment options available to them so that they are more attractive to customers.

We as bidorbuy and the sellers who sell on bidorbuy also have to take into account that our and your customers are moving more and more away from Desktop devices and doing more shopping on mobile devices.  With this in mind there is clear data that show that these customers prefer to use credit card for payment and that more manual methods such as EFT cause drop off in sales and cart abandonment. Making the payment process more streamlined for these customers could lead to an increase in sales volumes which in turn should lead to higher turnover in a business. 

2. Shipping.

Shipping has been a long standing issue and we want to encourage sellers to offer more competitive shipping rate and even free shipping. Overcharging on shipping and hiding all sorts of extra costs in the shipping charges creates a poor customer experience. These changes in the fee structure will be advantageous to sellers who charge reasonable shipping rates. 

The sellers whose business model is geared around tricking buyers into committing to a sale based on a low item cost only to find out later that they have to pay a highly inflated shipping price will not be better off. Their business model is also not only  geared around circumventing bidorbuy fees and misleading customers, they also cause reputational damage to the marketplace which affect every seller on the platform.  

3. Economics.

The reason for these changes are also based on economics where we want to build a sustainable business, that is easy to use for the whole community where we can be competitive and provide the users with good value. 

Some users in this thread have pointed out that the fee structure is still considerably less that other marketplaces and we are also of the view that we offer sellers more flexibility to conduct business. We also have to be mindful of the cost of doing business and we need to position ourselves accordingly to ensure that the marketplace is around to be able to service our users. 

Conclusion:

I do understand that people are in many cases adverse to change and no one is particularly thrilled if they have to pay more for a service. That being said I am sure that most of our users will see the opportunities that are available to them and apply it to their advantage. 

I hope that this has cleared up some of the questions around the changes. 

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Allstar
1 hour ago, zerohour said:

BOB replied to a similar question earlier today on social media. Here..

"We understand that this is quite a big adjustment, however there are many benefits of this new introduction. Please see below:

The reasons we are changing the fee structure is due to the following limitations of the old (current) fee structure:

1. The sliding scale fee percentage, which calculates the fee according to the sales value is complicated for customers to work out.
2. There are currently transaction fees attached to other payment methods including Credit Card, Discovery Miles, SnapScan and Mobicred.
3. There are also additional fees for buyers who pay with cash deposit.
4. It is restrictive for products with low margins such as computers where sellers struggle to sell the goods and use all the payment methods available to them.

The benefit of the new fee structure include:

1. It will be clearer what the fees include as there is a flat-fee per category and other charges.
2. There will be no payment transaction fees for sellers as this will now be included in the success fees
3. No cash deposit fees for buyers

In the past the success fee and payment fee was charged separately, these charges are now combined into one charge.

If you have any further questions or queries, please feel free to ask. We hope that over time you will find this new fee structure quite useful and beneficial"

There is no benefits/usefulness/added value to this new fee structure.

Sellers would you like to save more than 50% on fees/commisions and have a slightly more complex formula for working them out or be charged 50% more and have it slightly easier to work out??

It's a no brainer!!!

They are framing this as a change to help sellers when in fact all it is is a money grab.

If this change was to help sellers it would be to offer more choice not railroading a non-negotiable and excessive fee increase across the board.

Edited by Allstar

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Asha Craft

Johan,

 

Point 1 and 3... fine, point taken.

Point 2: you are avoiding the fact that you are charging commission on shipping.

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Allstar
28 minutes ago, johan said:

 Users who do not offer more payment options than bobpay EFT would feel that fees are increased but they are now free to take advantage of the all the payment methods available on the site. 

2. Shipping.

Shipping has been a long standing issue and we want to encourage sellers to offer more competitive shipping rate and even free shipping. Overcharging on shipping and hiding all sorts of extra costs in the shipping charges creates a poor customer experience. These changes in the fee structure will be advantageous to sellers who charge reasonable shipping rates. 

The sellers whose business model is geared around tricking buyers into committing to a sale based on a low item cost only to find out later that they have to pay a highly inflated shipping price will not be better off. Their business model is also not only  geared around circumventing bidorbuy fees and misleading customers, they also cause reputational damage to the marketplace which affect every seller on the platform.  

3. Economics.

The reason for these changes are also based on economics where we want to build a sustainable business, that is easy to use for the whole community where we can be competitive and provide the users with good value. 

Some users in this thread have pointed out that the fee structure is still considerably less that other marketplaces and we are also of the view that we offer sellers more flexibility to conduct business. We also have to be mindful of the cost of doing business and we need to position ourselves accordingly to ensure that the marketplace is around to be able to service our users. 

1.Right there is the crux of the matter - if you are only offering bobpay EFT you are going to be royally screwed by this change and it's non negotiable.

I'm perfectly happy with bobpay EFT, if you are genuinely trying to help Sellers then give us an option to remain on the old fee structure or one revised to reflect that we only utilize EFT options.

2. The reasons given for charging a commission on shipping is ridiculous, courier delivery for instance is expensive, even if a seller makes no profit or the case which I often find myself in is making a loss on shipping. Now I will be further penalized for offering cheap shipping to buyers becuase I have to pay more than 6% commission on the shipping that I am already making a loss on, so I charge the buyer R300 for the courier delivery which ends up costing me R360(it's hard to know exactly the final volumetric weight) and now another R24 has to be paid to Bidorbuy for my efforts to help the buyer with cheap shipping. - How is that change in the fee structure advantageous to sellers who charge reasonable shipping rates. 

3. Economics, no overt reason has been given, Bidorbuy relies on technology, servers, etc to serve an enormous amount of people each day, that's the beauty of their business model, very low cost per transaction served, if anything IT costs have dropped over the years and not increased, them refining their software model and the hardware costs per transaction falling as server implementation becomes more efficient. This revised offering does not offer any value add in terms of Sellers protection or anything for that matter so from that perspective Bidorbuy can thumbsuck whatever they want to justify infrastructure costs to motivate the increase and we will be none the wiser whether those claims are legitimate.

What I can see is Bidorbuy probably decided eBay is doing just fine ripping off people with fees, so why don't we join them, the end.

Because I can see no significant value offering to motivate the increases, other than it being a baldface money grab by Bidorbuy, the owners of Bidorbuy that is, Johan I'm assuming just works there so this isn't directed at him personally.

 

Edited by Allstar

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ATA STAMP CENTRE
7 minutes ago, Asha Craft said:

Johan,

 

Point 1 and 3... fine, point taken.

Point 2: you are avoiding the fact that you are charging commission on shipping.

Point 1 not credible,yes for that specific transaction where cc is used,but same sale with direct eft would have cost 5% will now cost 8.55% on my category

And i am sure u know that cc and other payment methods do not make up bulk of payments ,my payments are around 90%eft and only 10% are other methods,so i save on 10% and lose mega on 90% of payments-u cant candyfloss that.

ALso u are penalising the good solid sellers that have always maintained reasonable shipping to try and justify the commission on shipping ,there is no justification,the sellers will increase their shipping because NO ONE will want to lose money on shipping and that cost to buyers will get higher and drive them away eventually,

point 3 is understandable but within reason,an increase can be ecpected but these increases are excessive,and thats all there is to it,no other way to put it

neil

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Johan
14 minutes ago, Asha Craft said:

Johan,

 

Point 1 and 3... fine, point taken.

Point 2: you are avoiding the fact that you are charging commission on shipping.

At this stage when using any of the other payment methods such as CC, Bitcoin, Discovery Miles etc. the payment processing fee is applied to full amount paid. With the new structure all the processing costs are included and that is why that change is there. Also as mentioned this change will also discourage users from inflating shipping costs in order to circumvent fees. 

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Little Miss Muffet

Vat on shipping??  A South African post office charge.Who benefits from the vat??when SAPO has already been paid vat.Only Sars

I find this difficult to accept.This cannot be legal

 

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Johan
6 minutes ago, ATA STAMP CENTRE said:

Point 1 not credible,yes for that specific transaction where cc is used,but same sale with direct eft would have cost 5% will now cost 8.55% on my category

And i am sure u know that cc and other payment methods do not make up bulk of payments ,my payments are around 90%eft and only 10% are other methods,so i save on 10% and lose mega on 90% of payments-u cant candyfloss that.

ALso u are penalising the good solid sellers that have always maintained reasonable shipping to try and justify the commission on shipping ,there is no justification,the sellers will increase their shipping because NO ONE will want to lose money on shipping and that cost to buyers will get higher and drive them away eventually,

point 3 is understandable but within reason,an increase can be ecpected but these increases are excessive,and thats all there is to it,no other way to put it

neil

I had a quick look at your transactions for the past year and if you look in the advanced search section under your sales and you look at online payments made vs credit card payments made I think the 10% CC vs 90% other payments is out by quite a bit. 

You can check me on that and let me know if I am off the mark. 

 

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Allstar
4 minutes ago, johan said:

At this stage when using any of the other payment methods such as CC, Bitcoin, Discovery Miles etc. the payment processing fee is applied to full amount paid. With the new structure all the processing costs are included and that is why that change is there. Also as mentioned this change will also discourage users from inflating shipping costs in order to circumvent fees. 

But the processing fee is still charged on the full amount, you even illustrated that above?

What you are essentially saying is that commission and processing fee's charged at 5%+5% costs more than if it's charged at one time at 10%.

Do you honestly believe that?

 

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Allstar
1 minute ago, johan said:

I had a quick look at your transactions for the past year and if you look in the advanced search section under your sales and you look at online payments made vs credit card payments made I think the 10% CC vs 90% other payments is out by quite a bit. 

You can check me on that and let me know if I am off the mark. 

 

It doesn't change the point he's making though, that if the bulk of your payments are received as EFT you are getting fleeced with the revised fees?

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Allstar
5 minutes ago, Little Miss Muffet said:

Vat on shipping??  A South African post office charge.Who benefits from the vat??when SAPO has already been paid vat.Only Sars

I find this difficult to accept.This cannot be legal

 

My dear lady please relax, what they are doing is not illegal, they are charging a commission(which includes vat) on what ever costs(which will included shipping) are added to the cost of the items ordered, it's got nothing to do with SAPO/the Post Office/the courier. They are obliged to charge vat with their fees, there is nothing wrong with them doing that, they are obliged to by SARS.

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lavenderhaven

As a large loyal seller who has rejected many offers to bypass the system we feel very let down by BOB. We charge less than the shipping charge that we pay in order to attract customers. We will now have to pay an extra  6.55% on these fees which will have to be passed on to the customer. Not only that but we have just just over two weeks to go through our extensive stock and adjust prices to continue to make some profit!  Our success fee is now going to be 9.97% + 6.55% on our shipping charges. And this business of charging rates + VAT seems as if we are trying to be conned into thinking the increases are less than they are. What upsets most people, we are sure is being charged commission on shipping charges. Perhaps a re-think BOB?

 

 

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