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Clarification required from BoB regarding the ludicrous new fee structure

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ATA STAMP CENTRE
12 minutes ago, mrmouse said:

no problem with it ,will weed out the ripoff sellers hopefully,makes good business sense , if you dont understand economics , it will be a problem.

How do you come to this conclusion?

the "ripoff sellers " will just add the commission they now have to pay to BOB , to their postage and keep "ripping" off the buyers and now FEEL JUSTIFIED as BOB are complicit  and condoning this by ACCEPTING COMMISSION ON the ripoff postage!

Where is the understanding of economics in that?

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Asha Craft
Just now, ATA STAMP CENTRE said:

How do you come to this conclusion?

the "ripoff sellers " will just add the commission they now have to pay to BOB , to their postage and keep "ripping" off the buyers and now FEEL JUSTIFIED as BOB are complicit  and condoning this by ACCEPTING COMMISSION ON the ripoff postage!

Where is the understanding of economics in that?

Thank you. Totally agree

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mrmouse

quite clearly your costing is not up to whack ,commission is part of the package , you dont have to add it if you dont want to , thats up to you , i certainly will as would any other business , unless you like losing money .

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Asha Craft

Stop trolling. If you want to praise the new fee structure you are welcome to start your own thread.

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Allstar
5 minutes ago, Asha Craft said:

Stop trolling. If you want to praise the new fee structure you are welcome to start your own thread.

Yep, mrmouse is the forum troll.

Don't feed him people, just ignore his posts and reply to the previous replies

Edited by Allstar
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lavenderhaven

We have done an extensive check of last month's sales. Under the new rates our success fee will increase by 68.51% Because we sell in the Garden section we are also going to be charged the highest increase which will mean we will have to drop or considerably increase many of our low profit items. This will mean less sales - who is going to benefit?

We will also have to increase our postal and courier fees which will inevitably put off some from using Bid or Buy. again - who is going to benefit?

We notice that Bid or Buy administration is very quiet today - no responses. Are you having a re-think?

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Russalpcs

Hi all

I recently started using Pargo as a shipping option - at present they allow sellers to make R5 on each shipment, but I do have to buy courier bags at R1,60 each and then also print 2 waybills - with this increase on "Total order value" I will also be losing out on each parcel?

I have a similar extra charge on my other shipping options to cover costs like waybill printing, packaging costs ( bubble envelopes cost about R5 each now!) so I will have to increase my prices for the standard increase as well as shipping costs?

Russel

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Where are any of the major money generating sellers?why so quiet on this topic?I understand their commissions are only slightly up but they also have to pay the commissions on the shipping which will affect their buyers ,plus many of the smaller sellers that will now fall by the wayside do attract crossover buyers for many of the other categories than those that they sell in, so EVERYBODY WILL BE AFFECTED ,

neil

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dandashop
On 13/02/2018 at 7:19 PM, RiverValleyTrading said:

I would also like to suggest the following: 

A tool for sellers so that they can see what the fees will be before hand so that they can set the price of their items accordingly.  I feel that in trying to amke the fee calculation 'smarter' it has become far more complicated, and might scare away the seller who would just like  to offload all his old household items / goods. (This is the fun stuff I love to find on BoB

The price of an item is the most important thing to both a prospective buyer and seller and there should be absolutely no ambiguity or misunderstanding in how much the buyer will pay and how much the seller will receive. 

I have posted on this thread with links to a Fees calculator. Let me know if it works for you. 

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Serthentia Sales

And absolute silence from Bid or Buy, which is no different to slapping us sellers in the face with a big F@#K YOU

Absolutely disgraceful way to treat their customers

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Lack of response from sellers and buyers also is worrying,i think many did not check the fee rate card,they saw the misleading heading on the email trumpeting the flat rates and savings and never looked futher,when they do they going to be in for a nasty surprise.

Once BOB implements this there is no going back as then its too late,they will only realise after a few months that the income is dwindling and not increasing!!and by then sellers and buyers are out of business or have found different platforms to do business .

 

 

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Deonrick

this is the email i sent that BoB is ignoring. Spent the whole morning searching for email addresses. Was also promised 2 phone calls. 

I have also put a notice up on FB, and on My broadband., BoB keeps on deleting my notification auctions on BoB, but nothing stops me from mailing all my claienst about the new fees that ALL seelers are forced to hand over to the buyer. please comment!

Please do take serious note of my emials.
 
 

With example 1 above, the seller would only pay Bid or Buy R1000 x 5%, R50 Commission.
With Example 2 above, the seller would only pay Bid or Buy R135 x 5%, R6.75 Commision. 
In effect, the Seller has to give Bid or Buy, roughly, an additional 10% per order that is completed on the system. 
This does not take into account the South African Post Office increase coming into effect on the 1st April 2018, which again would push up the postage costs for the buyer and seller, and the buyer will have to carry this additional cost as well.
I have tried to get a fixed answer from Bid or Buy, but the following is what was received from Bid or Buy employees:
"The fees that we charge will now include all payment transaction fees and in some instances the fees we charge will be decreasing. We have also had a look a what is available in the market and our fees are still a lot lower than our competitors. The fee adjustment was also needed in the current trading environment to ensure that bidorbuy will be able to sustain and grow its offering to users."

"The reasons we are changing the fee structure is due to the following limitations of the old (current) fee structure:
1. The sliding scale fee percentage, which calculates the fee according to the sales value is complicated for customers to work out. 
2. There are currently transaction fees attached to other payment methods including Credit Card, Discovery Miles, SnapScan and Mobicred. 
3. There are also additional fees for buyers who pay with cash deposit.
4. It is restrictive for products with low margins such as computers where sellers struggle to sell the goods and use all the payment methods available to them.

The benefit of the new fee structure include:
1. It will be clearer what the fees include as there is a flat-fee per category and other charges.
2. There will be no payment transaction fees for sellers as this will now be included in the success fees
3. No cash deposit fees for buyers

In the past the success fee and payment fee was charged separately, these charges are now combined into one charge.

If you have any further questions or queries, please feel free to ask. We hope that over time you will find this new fee structure quite useful and beneficial."

"It might look like a rip off for now however when you look at it sellers will benefit from this because we are doing away with some charges."

Most sellers are of the view that Bid or Buy is having declining sales due to other media being available for people to make purchases on. 
BoB was asked 2 years ago to try and make the system more user friendly by doing the following:
1. Drag and drop for sellers, currently we need to upload the pictures to the system, then copy the link into an auction. That is why Buyers sometimes do not have enough pictures to view of the item they purchase.
2. Orders: The system currently automatically close orders after 7 days. This forces the client to make multiple EFT's to the seller/Bid or Buy, and the clients need to pay multiple postage fees. 
3. Sellers are forced to use internet, which increases our costs, to relist the item every 10 times. once an item closes after a week, the system automatically relists it for 10 more times. so instead of giving you, the client, more items to choose from, we need to spend time doing relistings daily.
4. Zoom. Bid or Buy is also lagging in a Zoom function like other international websites that they are trying to copy, and live up to. A zoom function will enable the buyers to see more detail of the item they are buying.
5. Sellers also want more advertising done, Sellers do most of the advertising for them!
If Bid or Buy left everything as is, and increased the Commision from 5% to 6% basic, there would not have been need for this. Most sellers would have absorbed the costs without the buyers being any wiser. 
I am doing this out of my own to make buyers aware of an impending price shock from Bid or Buy that sellers will need to carry down to the buyer as well. 
This is my opinion as a Financial Manager. This is only going to harm, Buyers and Sellers alike. Bid or Buy is not adding any value to the process from this price increase. 
Please feel free to ask questions below where Bid or Buy can track them please!

 
Kindest Regards
Deta Rossiter Bcom Fin Man. (UNISA)
 
 
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: deta rossiter 
To: Hello@bidorbuy.co.za <Hello@bidorbuy.co.za>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2018, 1:20:21 PM GMT+2
Subject: Fee Increase you are Demanding from me!
 
Seeing how you want me to fork out over R300 extra a month based on my previous sales figures.
I am also going to make demands implemented by the 1st march 2018. 
 
In exchange for the fee increase you are demanding from the 1st. i am demanding the following also from  the 1st March 2018
1. I want to have a relisting option of 99 times.
2. I want a make an offer option included in an auction  that relists.
3. I want a Free listing coupon that i can use monthly! not a once off listing fee coupon!
4. I want Drag and Drop image loading, Gumtree and OLX has it already, i have been asking now for the last 2 years.
5. I want better marketing. Advertising 1 week on Jacaranda, every 4 months, is not nearly enough. Email marketing is not the best strategy as the emails are deleted in any case. 
6. Better Zoom function, Much like Wix (Free selling website), Ebay has available to their clients.
7. Orders should be closed by the client themselves, and not closed by the system after 7 days. 
 
As i do more marketing for your website,  than what you do for your own website. Maybe i should start invoicing Bid or Buy for my time in getting clients to your website!
I have yet to talk to a seller who agrees with the so called "money saving" startegy of yours. You just want more money, for less work!
 
Kindest Regards 
Deta Rossiter 
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Deonrick
58 minutes ago, ATA STAMP CENTRE said:

Lack of response from sellers and buyers also is worrying,i think many did not check the fee rate card,they saw the misleading heading on the email trumpeting the flat rates and savings and never looked futher,when they do they going to be in for a nasty surprise.

Once BOB implements this there is no going back as then its too late,they will only realise after a few months that the income is dwindling and not increasing!!and by then sellers and buyers are out of business or have found different platforms to do business .

 

 

10:40 Deta Rossiter: this is the most pressing concern. There are a few sellers waiting for my feedback from BoB as well 
10:40 Morne van Zyl: This is only kicking in from the 1st of March.
10:41 Deta Rossiter: when will the phone call happen you think Morne?
10:41 Morne van Zyl: I will make sure a Category Manager contacts you.
10:41 Morne van Zyl: Today.
10:41 Morne van Zyl: I cannot confirm a exact time.

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Deonrick
4 hours ago, dandashop said:

I have posted on this thread with links to a Fees calculator. Let me know if it works for you. 

this is difficult if you have different sized items. 

And most do not even read shipping terms, never mind using a calculator

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Deonrick
23 hours ago, Russalpcs said:

Hi all

I recently started using Pargo as a shipping option - at present they allow sellers to make R5 on each shipment, but I do have to buy courier bags at R1,60 each and then also print 2 waybills - with this increase on "Total order value" I will also be losing out on each parcel?

I have a similar extra charge on my other shipping options to cover costs like waybill printing, packaging costs ( bubble envelopes cost about R5 each now!) so I will have to increase my prices for the standard increase as well as shipping costs?

Russel

Why i am with The Courier Guy, basically everything is suppled. And their rates are the cheapest in SA

 

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dandashop
1 minute ago, Deonrick said:

this is difficult if you have different sized items. 

And most do not even read shipping terms, never mind using a calculator

Yes, the exact cost will be difficult but at least you can get a rough idea of the fees. Hopefully, we won't have to use this calculator! 

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Deonrick
23 hours ago, lavenderhaven said:

We have done an extensive check of last month's sales. Under the new rates our success fee will increase by 68.51% Because we sell in the Garden section we are also going to be charged the highest increase which will mean we will have to drop or considerably increase many of our low profit items. This will mean less sales - who is going to benefit?

We will also have to increase our postal and courier fees which will inevitably put off some from using Bid or Buy. again - who is going to benefit?

We notice that Bid or Buy administration is very quiet today - no responses. Are you having a re-think?

Was waiting to see your reply. 

They are charging the highest volume in sales and R value with the highest commision. 

New fee.jpg

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Asha Craft

As I have posted on the Bidorbuy Facebook page as well: This commission that Bidorbuy is going to charge on shipping, will cost me an additional R21600 per year, based on the past 12 months. From me alone. For offering shipping to my buyers. I even offered to show Bidorbuy my courier statements. I charge the actual courier fee! If the package is 1cm thicker, I get charged an extra R35 by the courier company. Bidorbuy is acting is a disgraceful way and has made it very clear that they don't give a flying fk what we think.

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Deonrick
1 minute ago, dandashop said:

Yes, the exact cost will be difficult but at least you can get a rough idea of the fees. Hopefully, we won't have to use this calculator! 

i explain volumetrics in my shipping charges, a 10 year old can grasp it..

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Deonrick
On 2/13/2018 at 5:40 PM, johan said:

The point I am trying to make without going into specific numbers in a user's account is that when looking at the sales I do not think the vast majority is EFT as stated and I do expect that with these changes the amount of transactions using other methods will continue to increase. 

 

WIthout going into specifics...

I spent yesterday morning recalculating ALL of Dec and Jan sales. I will be paying R333.57 and R418.36 EXTRA. there is no saving anywhere. An average of R300 extra per month from me only, over what? 400 Sellers? R120 000 a month extra? PASELLA!

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Deonrick
On 2/13/2018 at 5:55 PM, johan said:

We are not charging Vat on postage. We are charging a fee to process the transaction. Final value fees is also added on when a user overpays on an order where they maybe want 2 items instead of 1 and did not update the order. 

The fee that we Charge is inclusive of VAT. 

I hope it clears it up. 

Not cleared up in the least

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Deonrick
On 2/13/2018 at 6:36 PM, RiverValleyTrading said:

I'm a seller on the site, and I would like to encourage further posts on this thread to propose solutions, as opposed to bashing the new policy. Let us work together to get better  understadning and bring about some sort of compromise and change.  

Therefore, to get the ball rolling, I would like to propose a suggestion regarding the final order fee as mentioned earlier in the thread by Johan.

His point was related to cases where the buyer would ask the seller to add in other items they forgot to order and just pay extra shipping, so the site loses out on the success fees. 

I can't say how much of this is going on, but  I do understand that in this case the process can be manipulated by the buyer and seller to avoid paying fees. However,  I do feel that the large majority of users on the site (buyers and sellers) value their feedback and ratings score much more than a saving fees for the odd transaction. I would say for the majority of orders, the difference between the items sales price and the final order cost is purely the shpping and handling cost. I don't think it is fair to sellers (and by logical extension buyers) to have to pay fees on shipping and handling costs. How else is the buyer going to get his items?

Therfore, I would like to suggest that the final order fee ONLY apply if the difference between the item sales price and the final order cost is above R150? (or some sort agreeable standard shipping charge).   

Secondly, I would like to suggest Bidorbuy set up some sort of agreement with courier companies / Post Office to help sellers lower shipping costs across the enitre site. 

Your thoughts? 

i hear you. 

But rather punish those ones only.

SAPO is cheap, but ineffective sometimes, Govt for you.

PARGO has too many expenses.

The Courier Guy is the cheapest and cash and or prepaid basis. 

Fastway is only prepaid, very expensive. 

Problem is that not all the sellers are in major centres

Who else will come to my house in stoffberg for a collection?

Leave t he rates as they were. just push up to 6%, and rather weed out the sellers that charge R30 per extra item, or R50 postage on a R1 winning bid?

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Deonrick
On 2/14/2018 at 8:33 AM, Best Bargains For All said:

Regarding Johan's statement that the commission charged on shipping fees now is to "prevent abuse of excessive shipping charges by sellers", I would like to direct everyone's attention to clause 6.3 of the listing policy which is already in place. This is 100% proof that Johan is outright lying to us, as a fair and just system to deal with excessive shipping is already in place.

6.3. Unreasonably high shipping charges on listings including insurance is not allowed. Shipping charges may only include the cost of delivery, packaging materials and insurance. bidorbuy in its sole discretion, reserves the right to charge a 5% penalty fee calculated on the total shipping amount to sellers whose shipping charges are deemed excessive, or to revoke selling privileges of infringing users.

Johan, you have been called out and caught out. The system is already in place to deal with excessive shipping. We, as the collective of sellers, contend and charge that your statement is dishonest, unethical and an insult to our intelligence. You are very well aware that this is nothing more than a money grab by Bid or Buy, who have seen ebay getting away with it for years and so believe that you can get away with ripping us off the same way. There is, however, a massive difference in the base of ebay compared to Bid or Buy, both in seller and buyer base. You will find that we will not bend over and take it up the tailpipe

packaging comes from my profit!

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Deonrick
On 2/13/2018 at 12:46 PM, Allstar said:

If you look at your previous Bidorbuy fee's invoice it shows the breakdown and the vat portion, the 5% commission included the vat.

Some marketing idiot at Bidorbuy thought "Hey people are stupid if we release the new rates excluding the vat it'll make the insane increases look less insane and more palatable, no one will notice..."  Vat is non negotiable so the 8.75% commission is in fact 9.97% if stated as the commission were previously stated by Bidorbuy.

The final order value fees is also excluding vat its not 5.75% its 6.55%(incl vat).

Hence old rate 5%(incl vat) new highest rate 9.97%(including vat) + 6.55%(incl vat) on shipping

i was informed that the vat is now EXCL incase the GOVT raises VAT!

 

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Deonrick
On 2/13/2018 at 4:03 PM, johan said:

I have read the some of the comments on the forum and I think it is worth pointing out what has lead to these changes. The reasons for the changes in the fees are three fold and I will cover them all. 

1. Payments .

In order to provide users of the site with a better experience we have strived to break down the barriers of people doing business. One of the main drivers of this is offering the customer as many payment options as possible. These payment options would include Credit Card, EFT, Bob Bucks vouchers, Discovery miles, Bitcoin, S-Code, Mobicred etc. 

Thes payment methods have been widely embraced by both buyers and sellers and this is something that we intend to grow to lower the barrier of Buyers and Sellers doing business with each other. Most of these payment methods like Credit Cards, and Mobicred does have a processing fee that we currently levy on the full purchase amount, as this is the amount processed for the particular transaction. 

So currently if you sell an item for under R1,000.00 and the buyer pays with Credit card we will charge you a 5% success fee and a 5% Credit Card processing fee which will add to it costing roughly 10% to do the transaction. 

With the new fee rates depending on the category this exact same transaction would cost. 

- 8.75% + 14% VAT = 9.98% 

- 7.50% + 14% VAT = 8.55%

- 5.75 + 14% VAT = 6.56%

Depending on the category and the payment method this could mean that some transactions would cost less than what it currently does on the current fee structure. Users who do not offer more payment options than bobpay EFT would feel that fees are increased but they are now free to take advantage of the all the payment methods available on the site. 

With the new fee structure we are encouraging sellers to use more ot the payment options available to them so that they are more attractive to customers.

We as bidorbuy and the sellers who sell on bidorbuy also have to take into account that our and your customers are moving more and more away from Desktop devices and doing more shopping on mobile devices.  With this in mind there is clear data that show that these customers prefer to use credit card for payment and that more manual methods such as EFT cause drop off in sales and cart abandonment. Making the payment process more streamlined for these customers could lead to an increase in sales volumes which in turn should lead to higher turnover in a business. 

2. Shipping.

Shipping has been a long standing issue and we want to encourage sellers to offer more competitive shipping rate and even free shipping. Overcharging on shipping and hiding all sorts of extra costs in the shipping charges creates a poor customer experience. These changes in the fee structure will be advantageous to sellers who charge reasonable shipping rates. 

The sellers whose business model is geared around tricking buyers into committing to a sale based on a low item cost only to find out later that they have to pay a highly inflated shipping price will not be better off. Their business model is also not only  geared around circumventing bidorbuy fees and misleading customers, they also cause reputational damage to the marketplace which affect every seller on the platform.  

3. Economics.

The reason for these changes are also based on economics where we want to build a sustainable business, that is easy to use for the whole community where we can be competitive and provide the users with good value. 

Some users in this thread have pointed out that the fee structure is still considerably less that other marketplaces and we are also of the view that we offer sellers more flexibility to conduct business. We also have to be mindful of the cost of doing business and we need to position ourselves accordingly to ensure that the marketplace is around to be able to service our users. 

Conclusion:

I do understand that people are in many cases adverse to change and no one is particularly thrilled if they have to pay more for a service. That being said I am sure that most of our users will see the opportunities that are available to them and apply it to their advantage. 

I hope that this has cleared up some of the questions around the changes. 

Point 1 only works if everything is on CC.

7 transactions a month on CC do not justify it....

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