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1893 Half Pound

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EWAAN Galleries
21 hours ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Good evening.

I would like to add to the comment of government seizing gold coins such a krugerrands or numismatic coins such as veld ponde etc. Though government has not hinted at confescation of precious metals and it is not "likely" or conceivable in today's age of unbacked fiat currency, another way this could become a reality is in the form of property expropration without compensation. Yes this has been the topic at the heart of South African politics over the last few months, or ever since the ANC government lost three major metros, Pretoria, Johannesburg and Port Elizabeth. It is none other that a smoke a mirrors beating of the drums to rally in response to loss of support. The common wording being thrown arround is land expropriation without compensation, but the truth is if ever a bill gets proposed to parliament, it will be worded as a "property expropriation without compensation" bill that gets passed. This was the view of a pominant politcal analysist that made it quite clear that property in this sense does not only apply to land, but to anything of ownership by a person, whether a house, car or even business or investments. This is the evil of this expropriation debate, as now everybody is talking about land, but the door is open to any and all possibilities. Not all expropration will take place on a open to wide scrutiny and on a public platform, and on a national scale. Such a bill opens the door to expropriation by any corrupt official of any property on a small town, village or municipal scale. This is where your krugerrands or veld ponde are at risk of confiscation. 

regards Robert

Land expropriation is definitely not same as property expropriation... and in my personal opinion I think the blacks do deserve the land they asking for :)

think about it they own less than 4% of land in this country which is quite sad...

years ago I thought Malema was a mad man. Today I actually salute him :)

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jwither
1 hour ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

Land expropriation is definitely not same as property expropriation... and in my personal opinion I think the blacks do deserve the land they asking for :)

think about it they own less than 4% of land in this country which is quite sad...

years ago I thought Malema was a mad man. Today I actually salute him :)

In the United States, most land is owned by the US federal government, at least west of the Mississippi River.

How does it differ there?

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EWAAN Galleries

72% - White

15% - Coloured

5% - Indian

4% - African

4% - Other

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testrarossa
11 minutes ago, jwither said:

In the United States, most land is owned by the US federal government, at least west of the Mississippi River.

How does it differ there?

It doesn’t. The government owns the biggest %.

 

3 minutes ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

72% - White

15% - Coloured

5% - Indian

4% - African

4% - Other

That maybe be correct for land in private hands. Not when government controlled land is taken into consideration.

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GROOVIE COINS
1 hour ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

Land expropriation is definitely not same as property expropriation... and in my personal opinion I think the blacks do deserve the land they asking for :)

think about it they own less than 4% of land in this country which is quite sad...

years ago I thought Malema was a mad man. Today I actually salute him :)

I agree fully. Land should be available to all. There are about 50mil South Africans, and 5million foreigners who share this country. Through out colonial times people who wanted to remain free of European rule were pushed to the extremities. In Apartheid millions were confined to bantustans that were a fraction of the land they own before. So yes all people are entitled to land, however to take away from one and give to the other without compensation is theft. The same theft that took place under colonialism by right of conquest. Two wrongs don't make a right. Take away the farmer's land for nothing and he is wounded as well. Take the Cape for example. What right to I have to go to some vineyard (There any many around here) and go and say my ancestors owned this land and claim it for nothing, when that farmer's family has been working the vineyard for 350 years? Property expropriation without compensation is theft and just because many are now singing this song, doesn't make it any less of an injustice. 

regards Robert

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admin

Hi All,

Please take note that Politics and Religion will not be allowed to be discussed on the bidorbuy forums. I will open this thread in an hour so discussions about the thread topic can continue.

Thank you for your co-operation and understanding in this regard.

Andries

Thread open. Thank you. 20h17

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EWAAN Galleries

Okay. Many thanks. Let’s get back to the topic. So the 1893 halfpond has declined more than bitcoin?

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EWAAN Galleries
On 2/20/2018 at 12:11 PM, Coin Database said:

Just my opinion, but no. It would not have made any difference. If they ever did get more, it would have been marginal. I have a post pending, but if approved, you will see I wrote about another XF45, NGC Graded on eBay that did not even sell the past 6-8 months at R69k.

Yes it has lost much more than the bitcoin crash... the 1893 halfpond xf45 was selling for 300k to 500k a few years back.

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jwither
4 hours ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

Yes it has lost much more than the bitcoin crash... the 1893 halfpond xf45 was selling for 300k to 500k a few years back.

When did it sell for this price range?  I just checked the Heritage archives and the highest sale was $19550 USD for an XF-40 (in the vicinity of R280,000 now) on January 3, 2012.  Granted this is a US sale and not in South Africa but this is at the peak of the bubble.

If by "a few years back", you mean within the last five, that's just a "stupid money" price to pay such a coin.  So is the Heritage price I just quoted.  Converted to USD at the then in effect exchange rate, R300K to R500K might have been as much as $50,000 USD. 

The coin is moderately scarce but only "grade rare" and isn't even numismatically competitive versus other South Africa coins in this price range, never mind coins from elsewhere.

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EWAAN Galleries
33 minutes ago, jwither said:

When did it sell for this price range?  I just checked the Heritage archives and the highest sale was $19550 USD for an XF-40 (in the vicinity of R280,000 now) on January 3, 2012.  Granted this is a US sale and not in South Africa but this is at the peak of the bubble.

If by "a few years back", you mean within the last five, that's just a "stupid money" price to pay such a coin.  So is the Heritage price I just quoted.  Converted to USD at the then in effect exchange rate, R300K to R500K might have been as much as $50,000 USD. 

The coin is moderately scarce but only "grade rare" and isn't even numismatically competitive versus other South Africa coins in this price range, never mind coins from elsewhere.

I know of many dealers that sold in SA for 300k - 500k and I personally paid 420k for a AU50 few years back when I just got started and into coins. I didn't know much then so had to pay school fees and it was a terrible coin more like xf40 overgraded by PCGS...yes I think on international auctions was about 300k to 350k they were getting 

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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jwither
5 hours ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

I know of many dealers that sold in SA for 300k - 500k and I personally paid 420k for a AU50 few years back when I just got started and into coins. I didn't know much then so had to pay school fees and it was a terrible coin more like xf40 overgraded by PCGS...yes I think on international auctions was about 300k to 350k they were getting 

All I can say is "wow" as I had no idea anyone ever paid that price for it.

I remember at one point, the TPG population count was in the teens for this coin with maybe one in MS.  This was around 2012.  Today, combined population count is 81 with 45 in XF-45 or better.   Some duplicates are presumably included but I see no reason to believe most coins in this grade or higher have been submitted multiple times.  Yes, it is the "key" date in a popular series but there must be several hundred at minimum in existence, including "details" eligible.

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EWAAN Galleries
9 hours ago, jwither said:

All I can say is "wow" as I had no idea anyone ever paid that price for it.

I remember at one point, the TPG population count was in the teens for this coin with maybe one in MS.  This was around 2012.  Today, combined population count is 81 with 45 in XF-45 or better.   Some duplicates are presumably included but I see no reason to believe most coins in this grade or higher have been submitted multiple times.  Yes, it is the "key" date in a popular series but there must be several hundred at minimum in existence, including "details" eligible.

Yes this is one expensive hobby in South Africa....

 

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jwither
7 hours ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

Yes this is one expensive hobby in South Africa....

 

You misunderstood the intent of my post.

I didn't say "wow" for the reason you gave but because it's hard to believe that anyone would pay that kind of price for a coin with its credentials which are not particularly distinguished.  It is exactly the same sentiments I hold for more US coins than I care to name here.

I will agree with you on one thing though from your post.  Despite that I consider the prior price vastly inflated, I do agree that an above average proportion of the buyers were probably more collector than financial buyer.  I make this statement because it is a circulated coin and though it's expensive, it is the "key" date of the short half pond series and I don't see as many financial buyers spending this much on a circulated coin.  This is a sentiment I apply to coins generally.

Though I would never pay it, at it's current value below MS, it's "reasonably" priced.

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Pierre_Henri

Usually, when one burns your fingers terribly, you turn against the whole hobby, as if the hobby turned against you.

Nobody forces anyone to collect this or that. 

It is one's own  choice.

Follow the "lekker" of collecting and not the profit.

Since way back when, the old guard told everyone that to collect coins for a profit is simply nonsense

To collect coins for the "lekker" (enjoyment) is all it is about...

Maybe we must ask Andries to open a second numismatic category on the forum where the majorly can discuss matters of true numismatic interest...

Then we can leave this current forum for those who are only interested in how much this or that coin is worth or how much one can make selling this or that coin. 

Really, I am sure the vast majority of coin collectors collect coins for the joy of it. 

Pierre

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EWAAN Galleries
4 minutes ago, Pierre_Henri said:

Usually, when one burns your fingers terribly, you turn against the whole hobby, as if the hobby turned against you.

Nobody forces anyone to collect this or that. 

It is one's own  choice.

Follow the "lekker" of collecting and not the profit.

Since way back when, the old guard told everyone that to collect coins for a profit is simply nonsense

To collect coins for the "lekker" (enjoyment) is all it is about...

Maybe we must ask Andries to open a second numismatic category on the forum where the majorly can discuss matters of true numismatic interest...

Then we can leave this current forum for those who are only interested in how much this or that coin is worth or how much one can make selling this or that coin. 

Really, I am sure the vast majority of coin collectors collect coins for the joy of it. 

Pierre

I’m not turning against the hobby at all... and yes nobody forced me to collect. I loved and enjoyed my rare coin collection for a nice long period of time. I’m just stating facts....The same can be said about Bitcoin. When one burns their fingers they turn against it :)

 

 

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jwither
24 minutes ago, Pierre_Henri said:

Really, I am sure the vast majority of coin collectors collect coins for the joy of it. 

Pierre

I agree.

However, even when this forum was a lot more active, there were few topics or posts about collecting and disproportionately about the financial aspects.

This included auction previews and results, TPG grading and questions asking how much some coin was worth.  It's expected that posts will invariably include these subjects but here this is the majority.

One of the apparent difficulties with discussing actual numismatic topics is that the limited variety of coinage in your country which most collectors want to buy, there is limited reference material and most in your country apparently don't know much about it.

Specifically, I am referring to the ZAR and Union series.  Most numismatic posts here are for ZAR with a few others covering various tokens and the Gricqua coins.  That's a narrow subject matter which given the limited knowledge of most collectors, doesn't leave much to discuss.  When these posts occasionally appear, I don't have much (if anything) to add either because I don't have access to the research since it isn't on the web and isn't available in print where I live.

In the US where the PCGS Forum and Coin Talk are quite active, participants discuss a much wider variety of topics.  US coinage is much more varied but US collectors also collect coinage from everywhere while South Africans don't appear to be active collectors of anything else except maybe Southern Rhodesia.

On US coin forums, participants also discuss their collecting experiences a lot more (even proportionately) than I have seen here.  I see these topics and posts here occasionally but nothing more.

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