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unicoin

1893 Half Pound

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unicoin

Good day all

Does anybody know what the 1893 half pound grade NGC XF45 

going rate is today?

 

 

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unicoin

Thanks Pierre,

Good heavens is this possible that the prices dropped like this.Not too 

long ago we were offered R250 000.00 and thought that is too low.

Is it worth it to keep it longer, will the price increase again?

Regards

Andrea

 

 

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Pierre_Henri

When selling very rare and very expensive coins on internet auctions, one must be very aware of many factors … 

Selling (listing) coins on sites like EBay and BidorBuy to get the ultimate exposure and prices, is practically a science. 

1)    The country you are selling the coins in - South African coins will probably do better in SA than in Great Britain – see earlier posts – this was a strong debate earlier on this forum.

2)    The time of the day the auction closes (nobody bid at 3 o clock in the morning or 3 o’ clock in the afternoon, so ending the auction between 7 and 10 during weekdays is probably the best time-slot)

3)    Day of the week (never on a Wednesday – unless it is specifically listed under the Crazy Wednesday auctions regarding BidorBuy) – otherwise it will compete with thousands of other coins. The best days are Thursdays and Sundays -- the worst are Fridays and Saturdays.

4)    Month of the year (the coin in question was listed to close on the 17th of December which is a bad time – many people have already left on holiday)   

5)    Picture and description – when pictures are faint and descriptions are below standard (I am not talking about the coin in question), the results will show it – personally – if I see the following on BidorBuy I cringe, and just do not click on the item – VERY RARE _ VERY RARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VERY FEW MINTED !!!!!! etc etc.

6)    The provenance of the item or the sellers’ history – very important – does his or her ratings show the person to be trustworthy delivering the goods?

Like I have mentioned above, selling (listing) coins on sites like EBay and BidorBuy to do well, is practically a science.

So it is very difficult to look at past results to determine the value of a coin in a certain period in time that was sold on an internet auction.

The same coin in the same grade could sell in the same week for a difference of a R100 000 because the person who listed that coin was not aware of the finer e-commerce details of marketing that coin.

It is really a science and all of us learn as we go along!

Pierre

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EWAAN Galleries
On 2/4/2018 at 10:15 AM, unicoin said:

Thanks Pierre,

Good heavens is this possible that the prices dropped like this.Not too 

long ago we were offered R250 000.00 and thought that is too low.

Is it worth it to keep it longer, will the price increase again?

Regards

Andrea

 

 

Yes thats why a terrible investment - no chance this coin is worth even close to R100k in todays times - and even if you can find a buyer at R100k you would have to buy him many dinners :)

The prices will not increase - numismatics is to collect and keep - definitely not worth keeping longer if you in it to make a profit...

 

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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jwither
On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 3:15 AM, unicoin said:

Thanks Pierre,

Good heavens is this possible that the prices dropped like this.Not too 

long ago we were offered R250 000.00 and thought that is too low.

Is it worth it to keep it longer, will the price increase again?

Regards

Andrea

 

 

Aside from the weak market, the supply in NGC and PCGS holders has increased, a lot.

The NGC census is 16 in XF-45 with 12 graded higher.  The PCGS population is nine with eight graded higher.  Probably some duplicates given the value but still not a low number for a coin with a reputation for being scarce or rare, especially since I doubt there are many buyers of this series who'll ever be interested in paying anything remotely resembling the prior price for a mid to higher grade circulated coin, regardless of what happens to the market later.

If this is a coin you have owned for dealer stock (I assume you are a dealer), you'll need to make that evaluation for yourself.  No one else can really make it for you.

I'd be inclined to get rid of that coin and put the money to use elsewhere.

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EWAAN Galleries
On 2/4/2018 at 7:22 PM, Pierre_Henri said:

When selling very rare and very expensive coins on internet auctions, one must be very aware of many factors … 

Selling (listing) coins on sites like EBay and BidorBuy to get the ultimate exposure and prices, is practically a science. 

1)    The country you are selling the coins in - South African coins will probably do better in SA than in Great Britain – see earlier posts – this was a strong debate earlier on this forum.

2)    The time of the day the auction closes (nobody bid at 3 o clock in the morning or 3 o’ clock in the afternoon, so ending the auction between 7 and 10 during weekdays is probably the best time-slot)

3)    Day of the week (never on a Wednesday – unless it is specifically listed under the Crazy Wednesday auctions regarding BidorBuy) – otherwise it will compete with thousands of other coins. The best days are Thursdays and Sundays -- the worst are Fridays and Saturdays.

4)    Month of the year (the coin in question was listed to close on the 17th of December which is a bad time – many people have already left on holiday)   

5)    Picture and description – when pictures are faint and descriptions are below standard (I am not talking about the coin in question), the results will show it – personally – if I see the following on BidorBuy I cringe, and just do not click on the item – VERY RARE _ VERY RARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VERY FEW MINTED !!!!!! etc etc.

6)    The provenance of the item or the sellers’ history – very important – does his or her ratings show the person to be trustworthy delivering the goods?

Like I have mentioned above, selling (listing) coins on sites like EBay and BidorBuy to do well, is practically a science.

So it is very difficult to look at past results to determine the value of a coin in a certain period in time that was sold on an internet auction.

The same coin in the same grade could sell in the same week for a difference of a R100 000 because the person who listed that coin was not aware of the finer e-commerce details of marketing that coin.

It is really a science and all of us learn as we go along!

Pierre

I must disagree with some of your answers....

 

1. The country does not matter. Heritage Galleries and DNW... etc have broken records on many South African coins. The SA market would not pay close to some prices even at the peak. 

 

2. Time of day does not matter on choice items. If the buyers wants it they will bid. 

 

3. Also day does not matter on choice items. 

 

4. Completely false - most heritage auctions are during the holiday Periods and attract a lot of attention. 

 

5. I agree the description and pictures play an important role. 

6. True

 

Lastly this coin won’t even fetch R100k forget a difference of R100k pal....

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EWAAN Galleries
1 hour ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

I must disagree with some of your answers....

 

1. The country does not matter. Heritage Galleries and DNW... etc have broken records on many South African coins. The SA market would not pay close to some prices even at the peak. 

 

2. Time of day does not matter on choice items. If the buyers wants it they will bid. 

 

3. Also day does not matter on choice items. 

 

4. Completely false - most heritage auctions are during the holiday Periods and attract a lot of attention. 

 

5. I agree the description and pictures play an important role. 

6. True

 

Lastly this coin won’t even fetch R100k forget a difference of R100k pal....

Almost all Sa lots on heritage auctions were at 4am-7am over the December holidays and many records were broken 

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Pierre_Henri
On 2/15/2018 at 1:31 PM, EWAAN Galleries said:

Almost all Sa lots on heritage auctions were at 4am-7am over the December holidays and many records were broken 

So South African numismatic sales are actually doing fantastic at the moment with so many records broken recently?

Didn't you ask a few days ago if the numismatic market is collapsing?

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EWAAN Galleries
33 minutes ago, Pierre_Henri said:

So South African numismatic sales are actually doing fantastic at the moment with so many records broken recently?

Didn't you ask a few days ago if the numismatic market is collapsing?

definitely not recently....few years back - did I use the term 'recently'?

 

Maybe 5 years back yes - you already know of the record sales :)

 

amazing how nobody can answer the question about the 1892 Pond in MS63 valued at over 120k? :)

 

 

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Pierre_Henri
3 minutes ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

definitely not recently....few years back - did I use the term 'recently'?

Yes you did - you said December - however if you are  referring to some Decembers many years ago then please just state that 

 

 

 

 

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EWAAN Galleries
1 minute ago, Pierre_Henri said:

Yes you did - you said December - however if you are  referring to some Decembers many years ago then please just state that 

 

 

 

 

Its an annual action - Which is every single year over December - January - you don't know of this annual World Coin Auction?

 

 

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EWAAN Galleries
50 minutes ago, Pierre_Henri said:

So South African numismatic sales are actually doing fantastic at the moment with so many records broken recently?

Didn't you ask a few days ago if the numismatic market is collapsing?

I made a mistake should not have asked about the Numismatic market collapsing - I should have stated that is has already collapsed in terms of prices and value......

I can admit my mistakes - I was wrong about many things in life.... Knowledge is your weapon :)

 

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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Pierre_Henri
14 minutes ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

 

 

Go with Allah and let there be peace ...

 

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EWAAN Galleries
2 minutes ago, Pierre_Henri said:

 

Go with Allah and let there be peace ...

 

Have you now accepted Islam?

As a christian would normally say God? - A muslim will say Allah - We all believe in one God still :)

 

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Coin Database

Here are the last 3 sales on public auction platforms:

15 April 2016 - XF45 - NGC - Heritage Auctions - R87,681
3 April 2017 - XF45 - NGC - CoinAuction (Johan Gouws) - R80,000
17 December 2017 - XF45 - PCGS - BidorBuy - R58,500

You can make your mind up as to value of the coin in XF45 graded condition.

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GROOVIE MOVIES
32 minutes ago, Coin Database said:

Here are the last 3 sales on public auction platforms:

15 April 2016 - XF45 - NGC - Heritage Auctions - R87,681
3 April 2017 - XF45 - NGC - CoinAuction (Johan Gouws) - R80,000
17 December 2017 - XF45 - PCGS - BidorBuy - R58,500

You can make your mind up as to value of the coin in XF45 graded condition.

Perhaps if that PCGS coin was put up between Sept and Nov when execs get their bonuses, it would have done better on auction...?

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Coin Database
37 minutes ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Perhaps if that PCGS coin was put up between Sept and Nov when execs get their bonuses, it would have done better on auction...?

Just my opinion, we can go this way, we can go that way, wonder about this, wonder about that, but the reality is that the prices are coming down, both here are abroad for South African coins. I have been following a certain listing for another 1893 1/2 Pond NGC graded XF45. This coin was listed at a Buy Now price of around R69k. It has been on eBay for the biggest part of 6-8 months. The coin simply did not sell. There were no interest in it at that price. The listing eventually ended and the seller decided to keep it and he told me they may consider platforms such as HA.

Here is the link - https://www.ebay.com/itm/very-scarce-key-date-1-2-Pond-1893-NGC-XF45-A12-/332520622359?nma=true&si=mC7VJA%2Fw2Bm6%2F6yYYciWpdkfsSE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I highly doubt they would have gotten a lot more if they placed the coin on auction in any prime times either.

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Coin Database
48 minutes ago, GROOVIE MOVIES said:

Perhaps if that PCGS coin was put up between Sept and Nov when execs get their bonuses, it would have done better on auction...?

Just my opinion, but no. It would not have made any difference. If they ever did get more, it would have been marginal. I have a post pending, but if approved, you will see I wrote about another XF45, NGC Graded on eBay that did not even sell the past 6-8 months at R69k.

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jwither
On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:33 AM, EWAAN Galleries said:

I must disagree with some of your answers....

 

1. The country does not matter. Heritage Galleries and DNW... etc have broken records on many South African coins. The SA market would not pay close to some prices even at the peak. 

I would say that the country where the coin is sold does matter, at least most of the time.  I am aware that record prices have been set in foreign auctions (such as your PR-66 5/-) in the past but have seen no evidence that it is remotely normal.. 

It is evident that SA buyers invariably pay more for most SA coins locally than elsewhere.  My observations are not statistical, but in the past when I used to pay attention, I would invariably see a Heritage sold coin offered here on BoB.  Only occassioanlly on eBay or a by a foreign dealer.

In a prior post here, I once estimated that there were/are maybe 5-10 foreign buyers of ZAR above $10,000, possibly excluding the 1874 Burgers Pond and Veld Pond.  And of these, it's hardly unrealistic that all are South African expatriates.  No, not scientific but at the time of my post, Heritage had only sold 96 SA coins over this value in their entire history and this one source easily accounts for well over half (if not most) of the SA coins sold elsewhere above this price point.  I didn't perform an analysis for $1,000 to $10,000 (currently the range covering an 1893 XF 1/2 pond) but don't see that the results will really be any different.

The only explanation I have for a SA buyer paying more locally than elsewhere is the increased risk of bringing the coin back into the country.  If it is something else, I don't know what it could possibly be.

What I believe happens is that usually a South African based consignor ships the coin to Heritage, a South African based buyer usually wins the auction and then Heritage ships the coin right back to South Africa.  Since the adoption of TPG, it is my contention that most of the better and scarcer South African coins (whether ZAR, Union or RSA) above a nominal price (say, arbitrarily $300 USD) have returned to South Africa because the price level is still higher than most other coinage and your buyers have the greatest affinity for it.

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EWAAN Galleries
16 hours ago, jwither said:

I would say that the country where the coin is sold does matter, at least most of the time.  I am aware that record prices have been set in foreign auctions (such as your PR-66 5/-) in the past but have seen no evidence that it is remotely normal.. 

It is evident that SA buyers invariably pay more for most SA coins locally than elsewhere.  My observations are not statistical, but in the past when I used to pay attention, I would invariably see a Heritage sold coin offered here on BoB.  Only occassioanlly on eBay or a by a foreign dealer.

In a prior post here, I once estimated that there were/are maybe 5-10 foreign buyers of ZAR above $10,000, possibly excluding the 1874 Burgers Pond and Veld Pond.  And of these, it's hardly unrealistic that all are South African expatriates.  No, not scientific but at the time of my post, Heritage had only sold 96 SA coins over this value in their entire history and this one source easily accounts for well over half (if not most) of the SA coins sold elsewhere above this price point.  I didn't perform an analysis for $1,000 to $10,000 (currently the range covering an 1893 XF 1/2 pond) but don't see that the results will really be any different.

The only explanation I have for a SA buyer paying more locally than elsewhere is the increased risk of bringing the coin back into the country.  If it is something else, I don't know what it could possibly be.

What I believe happens is that usually a South African based consignor ships the coin to Heritage, a South African based buyer usually wins the auction and then Heritage ships the coin right back to South Africa.  Since the adoption of TPG, it is my contention that most of the better and scarcer South African coins (whether ZAR, Union or RSA) above a nominal price (say, arbitrarily $300 USD) have returned to South Africa because the price level is still higher than most other coinage and your buyers have the greatest affinity for it.

Hi

I agree with most of your points. But bear in mind Heritage Galleries as we all know is the biggest in numismatics... they have broken many records In the past with coin sales way above $10k. I remember a 1892 proof penny sold also for almost $200k which is ridiculous and the buyers won’t ever recover his funds... if you go back and look at heritage sales over last 5 years you will see many records on ZAR proof and high mint state finest knows and yes you are correct most of those coins came back to South Africa as I personally know where quite a few of them are :)

 

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EWAAN Galleries
19 minutes ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

The only explanation I have for a SA buyer paying more locally than elsewhere is the increased risk of bringing the coin back into the country.  If it is something else, I don't know what it could possibly be.

I disagree here. Up to date many coins were shipped from Heritage and DNW to South Africa. I have never personally heard of not one single coin going missing... unless as we all know dodgy dealers can make up stories that coins go missing. The international auction companies ship very well and coins come into South Africa. Also there is not VAT on gold coins before 1962 so whoever has issue can take this to the reserve bank and the SA reserve bank will instruct SA customs not to charge this at all. All big coin dealers do this and won’t ever tell the collectors this obviously why would I tell a collector how to do if I can rather buy the coin as a dealer then sell to him at a profit once I get the coins from abroad...if I’m sitting on a goldmine I just keep quiet :)

 

 

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jwither
8 hours ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

I disagree here. Up to date many coins were shipped from Heritage and DNW to South Africa. I have never personally heard of not one single coin going missing... unless as we all know dodgy dealers can make up stories that coins go missing. The international auction companies ship very well and coins come into South Africa. Also there is not VAT on gold coins before 1962 so whoever has issue can take this to the reserve bank and the SA reserve bank will instruct SA customs not to charge this at all. All big coin dealers do this and won’t ever tell the collectors this obviously why would I tell a collector how to do if I can rather buy the coin as a dealer then sell to him at a profit once I get the coins from abroad...if I’m sitting on a goldmine I just keep quiet :)

 

 

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of it.  From 2006 to 2011, I shipped slightly over 100 packages to South Africa for the coins I sold.  One package was lost and it was one of the few that was not USPS Registered Mail.  It was USPS Express Mail (per the buyer's request, not my choice) which is actually handled by FedEx, though most probably don't know it.

If this isn't the reason, then I have no idea why South African coins invariably sold for less elsewhere than in your country.  Now that the price level is so much lower, it's possible that my observations either don't apply or far less.  I'm still aware of no evidence to indicate that foreign collector affinity for SA coinage is any more than it was, but the lower price level makes the coins a lot more competitive especially for US buyers who don't think twice of buying random coins at prices higher than all other collectors, as in not unusual up to maybe $1,000 USD per my prior post.

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jwither
8 hours ago, EWAAN Galleries said:

Hi

I agree with most of your points. But bear in mind Heritage Galleries as we all know is the biggest in numismatics... they have broken many records In the past with coin sales way above $10k. I remember a 1892 proof penny sold also for almost $200k which is ridiculous and the buyers won’t ever recover his funds... if you go back and look at heritage sales over last 5 years you will see many records on ZAR proof and high mint state finest knows and yes you are correct most of those coins came back to South Africa as I personally know where quite a few of them are :)

 

I was using Heritage as an example.  However, the only other auction firm I have seen with consistently high value South Africa consignments was DNW, but not anymore since the Bakewell sale.  The appearance of South African coins above even $1000 USD outside of these two firms isn't even noticeable.

I am remember the 1892 NGC PR-65 RB 1D.  The price was ridiculous but the distinction is that I am the only one here who stated so then.  I do agree with you though that, measured in purchasing power, the buyer will not recover their "investment" and neither will the overwhelming percentage and number of buyers who paid the hugely inflated prices near the YE 2011 peak, absent another bubble.

The only very valuable South African coins that I believe contain high appeal to foreign buyers (excluding expatriates) are these:

One: Many of the Pre-Union patterns, excluding the numerous varieties for the pennies and 2D;

Two: Burgers Pond

Three: Vend pond

The predominant reason for this is that all of the other coins don't have sufficient distinction and look alike.  Except for the US, hardly any collectors elsewhere give a "hoot" about the TPG grade and certainly will not pay the hugely inflated premiums for higher grades, whether currently or during the bubble.  For US buyers, I can see that they might buy the  coins I specifically listed in isolation, but keep in mind that regardless of the perception collectors in your country have of these coins, collectors elsewhere do not share it and these coins are very expensive and there are a very large number of coins which are scarcer or more prominent which sell for only slightly more or even a lot less.

In theory, I could see some of the Union patterns with appeal to specialists, but the coins aren't available for sale.  One example is the 1950 KGVI pound/sovereign.  Other Union or RSA, not really.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri
On 2/21/2018 at 5:32 PM, jwither said:

One example is the 1950 KGVI pound/sovereign.

What is the Hern number /reference of this coin?

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