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Mandela R5 collectors

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Rare NotesCoins

Please watch or Pvr Carte Blanche this Sunday evening to watch what youre collection has been doing moneywise. You will also see what they are really worth.

Regards​

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Pierre_Henri

I Hope SA Coin is watching (and their clients that buys their so called excessively rare Mandela R5 coins)

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I N Collectables

I second that Pierre, it's absolutely shocking that they could carry on this sham for this long.

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Cold Sea

#mandelacoinscammustfall

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Pierre_Henri

Due to the Rugby, I missed Carte Blanche - what happened?

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geejay50

Hi Everybody,

 

Before this program was aired on TV , I was approached by Carte Blanche to speak on behalf of collectors and agreed. They did not come back to me for their own reasons.Over the phone then they asked me how we assess "Rare" I referred them to the NGC pop report where there have been in the case of Mandela 2008 Birthday coins, over 200,000 graded most in Mint State and 11 in MS69. Even in MS69, this is not very rare as we in Rare Coins understand it compared to say a Mint State 1927 Halfcrown where there are a total of 5 in MS and this has not changed for the past 7 years. PCGS has graded another 2 MS69 2008 Birthday Coins so there are 13 conditional rarities.

 

The main victim in the program who bought the 3 coins for R1.12 million (R373,333 each) should have got the projected growth and buy back from SA Coin IN WRITING duly signed by witnesses. That is the lesson for everybody out of this obvious scam. I won a High Court Case against a dealer by the name of Bert Gemelgo (see Google) who also offered to buy back an 1893 Halfpond and Finebeard Burgerspond if they did not grade but in writing. Well he tried to avoid the guarantee but lost in court and again on appeal.

 

That was 9 years ago but he had done similar to twenty other mostly elderly defenseless people.An investigative journalist by the name of Christina Gallagher exposed that side of things in a Sunday Newspaper. He had to close down and is no longer selling coins to my knowledge.

 

The couple who were 'urged to buy quickly' because the price of the coins was rising quickly (without apparently showing them objective proof of sales !!! ) was so typical of the modus operandi of the pressure salesmen.

 

Mr Mark T Anderson was unable to come up with a single buyer of his inflatedly priced birthday coins who had actually made money out of them let alone the buyer who so called paid R2.5 million for one. This argument of 'they dont want to it to be known ' does not ring true . It may be the one or the other buyer but it cant be true for all buyers.Is it not in Mark's overwhelming interest to show the country that money CAN be made from these coins??? Then we might believe some of what he says.If people have been conned with baseless inflated prices and false buy back promises,they have a right to compensation that he cannot call 'nastiness' as he does. We collectors need to stand together as one to clean up this market. This sort of bad publicity gives us a bad name.

 

If one looks at Heritage Auction Archives (Texas) , there have been 3291 South African Coin Lots sold over the last 7 or so years involving several million rands and much of the cream of our Rare coins. A search just done reveals not a single Mandela 2008 Birthday Coin as having been sold there. There have been just four lots of Proof Inauguration Coins sold involving 7 coins in the past 7 years (Pf68 - 69) and the prices have come down from $146 in 2012 to $36 and $48 in August 2015 to $58 in the most recent auction in September 2015 (prices fetched per coin excluding transport and SA VAT) Grading Costs at NGC at the moment are about $33 including courier costs. We are looking at no big profit in the sales of these coins of late. How can SA Coin predict doubling in prices fetched ? - in fact a crash in prices has happened.

 

I would challenge SA Coin to put one of those MS69 2008 Birthday coins on a public auction like bidorbuy on a R1 start and see what the public will pay for it. That will be the test of its true value.In fact if my memory serves me, there was one sold by EishGK a year or so ago on Bidorbuy, just cant remember the price.

 

It was around 5 to 7 years ago when Mr Mark T Anderson was impossible to beat on ebay auctions when good quality ZAR coins were on sale. I must admit defeat in every auction I attempted to win against him even at uncomfortable hours of the morning. He knows very well what really rare coins are as I do. I have no issue with that but how can he pretend a shared pop 1 (13) modern coin with a mintage of over 22 million and lots more to be graded is rare ?

 

Lets let a free market decide.

 

Well done Carte Blanche for exposing this - you have served the public interest.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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coinoisseur

I was also contacted by Carte Blanche to do an interview but could not go to JHB to do it. However, I also gave them my views over the phone and read out numerous SMS's and emails I received from people who were conned into buy Mandela coins as an investment only to find out that they were worthless. The biggest problem is that innocent people with no knowledge coins are the ones being caught. So the message must be passed to as many people as possible warning them of the dangers in investing hard earned money into false investment. Unfortunately, because of this, the entire coin market has to suffer.

 

Cheers

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Pierre_Henri

Maybe the Consumer Protection Act can give some cover here? I mean, how can you say that you have sold a coin for R2.5m with the sole intention of procuring new buyers, BUT when asked who you sold it to, you are unwilling to do that?

 

But on a different note - about a decade ago, that very Mark Andersen from SA COIN responded on this very forum to a question of mine on his R5 scam --- He replied that he is above suspicion and that ... wait for it ... helicopters are hovering above Mandela's house which is a few houses from his mothers house a few blocks away in the same street.

 

I was gobsmacked and asked him what the hell he was smoking ...

 

If you go back to the archives of this forum to around 2005/06 - you will find that post...

 

Save a country - harpoon a numismatic fraud

 

Pierre

 

 

 

.

 

Edited by Pierre_Henri

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Little Miss Muffet

It is shocking to know that some people have no conscience.I would find it difficult to take R500 for something worth R100 never mind a million.

I believe in Karma,albeit in a different way.

I watched the Carte Blanche and looked at him and thought "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"

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geejay50

Hi Everybody,

 

I would like to ask Carte Balnche why they did not interview SCoin Shop (SAGoldCoin Exchange- Alan Demby) and the similar type of unrealistic Mandela Coin and Medal Prices they ask? Those prices are not the upshot of a public auction but the same baseless thumbsuck that Mark Anderson uses. For example I was offered a One Ounce Gold Mandela De Klerk Coin by SAGCE for R50,000. The same coin was sold on Bidorbuy for R19,000 by Pierre Henri two months ago and so forth. SAGCE is also just like SA Coin unwilling to buy back what they sell. They use the silly argument that they will only buy back if they need the stock which in these oversold times is never.

 

My own answer to this is that SA Gold Coin Exchange has a very cosy relationship with the SA Mint and is offered these Mandela items at prices that make their resale markup very high.Any public interrogation like Mark Anderson went through will expose this and Carte Blanche does not want to do this because it may embarass both parties with the SA Mint being part of the ANC Government. Carte Blanche itself is answerable to the same government so they are careful not to stand on the toes that belong to the same foot.

 

The magazine Personal Finance in 2012 did not have the same restriction as Carte Blanche and exposed all parties involved ..please see "Fools Gold : Are Medallions worth more than their weight in gold?"

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither
It was around 5 to 7 years ago when Mr Mark T Anderson was impossible to beat on ebay auctions when good quality ZAR coins were on sale. I must admit defeat in every auction I attempted to win against him even at uncomfortable hours of the morning. He knows very well what really rare coins are as I do.

 

I have never bought anything from SA Coin Co but I did contact them once and it was over seven years ago. It was when the ZAR population (census) counts were much lower and these coins were a lot harder to find in NGC and PCGS holders.

 

I mentioned to them (this being one of their coin brokers who obviously knew nothing about coins) that I owned an 1892 NGC MS-64 RB PL 1D and an 1898 PCGS MS-65 RB 1D. This broker firstly told me that my 1892 was the "second best" because of the grade. He had no awareness of the significance of the PL designation.

 

Next, he offered to sell me another 1892 MS-64 and 1898 MS-65 for $2500 USD each. Shocking and dismaying as it was, I passed on that once in a lifetime opportunity.

 

So if you want to know why he was paying strong prices for those eBay coins, I can only guess its because at the time the supply per the census counts limited their inventory. Or equally likely as I have pointed out dozens of times, the prices were lower because the sale occurred outside of South Africa.

 

Whichever it was, we can all be sure whatever he bought was offered at an astronomical mark-up because the 1892 @ $2500 then was at least double its real price and the 1898 probably about six times.

 

 

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jwither

Another point I will make is that the criticisms I read here, I see exactly the same practice by sellers of Union coins on BoB. I limit it to Union because I don't check ZAR anymore and haven't for a long time.

 

In the many years I have looked ta BoB listings, the number of Unions coins listed at rip-off prices are more than I can remember. Only a few were at "big money" amounts such as the examples used here but the mark-ups were and are exorbitant. Some of these coins have been listed for years and it should be obvious that unless the Rand experiences massive depreciation and coin prices increase to (partly) compensate for it, the only way these coins will sell at the ask price is by duping a clueless buyer. My guess is that the (supposed) justification for it if questioned on it, the seller would hide behind the fantasy prices in the Hern Guide since I presume some of these listings use the fictional catalog price.

 

Interesting how I don't recall anyone here ever mentioning that.

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jwither
The biggest problem is that innocent people with no knowledge coins are the ones being caught. So the message must be passed to as many people as possible warning them of the dangers in investing hard earned money into false investment. Unfortunately, because of this, the entire coin market has to suffer.

 

Cheers

 

I suspect it makes less of a difference than you believe. It certainly doesn't help but I don't believe it remotely accounts for what has happened to the price level since YE 2011.

 

This happens in the US both today and in the past and I specifically recall it throughout the 1980's after the 1979/1980 metals boom. There is no possibility to prove it one way or the other but I don't see that any of these people were real collectors anyway. A very low percentage presumably could have become one later but in the US, these :"investors" are at least buying real numismatic coins (Morgan dollars and generic pre-1933 US gold). Those who participated in the national Mandela's mania (whether through the SA Coin Co or on BoB) are buying pocket change.

 

Additionally, for those who did buy ZAR from them (the SA Coin Co), I don't see much difference between these buyers and those who bought at inflated prices elsewhere, despite the example I just gave myself a few posts above. It is a matter of degree and not kind. A more than insignificant percentage must have lost their proverbial shirts whether they bought their coins from the SA Coin Co, on BoB, eBay or even Heritage given the absurd prices many of these coins fetched when they sold and what they are actually worth now. As one example, a few years ago, I profiled a 1931 NGC PR-65 Shilling which sold on BoB for the equivalent of about $9000 USD. A few weeks later, DNW sold an NGC PR-66 for about $3200.

 

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rohini
On ‎2015‎/‎10‎/‎30 at 7:11 AM, geejay50 said:

Hi Everybody,

 

I would like to ask Carte Balnche why they did not interview SCoin Shop (SAGoldCoin Exchange- Alan Demby) and the similar type of unrealistic Mandela Coin and Medal Prices they ask? Those prices are not the upshot of a public auction but the same baseless thumbsuck that Mark Anderson uses. For example I was offered a One Ounce Gold Mandela De Klerk Coin by SAGCE for R50,000. The same coin was sold on Bidorbuy for R19,000 by Pierre Henri two months ago and so forth. SAGCE is also just like SA Coin unwilling to buy back what they sell. They use the silly argument that they will only buy back if they need the stock which in these oversold times is never.

 

My own answer to this is that SA Gold Coin Exchange has a very cosy relationship with the SA Mint and is offered these Mandela items at prices that make their resale markup very high.Any public interrogation like Mark Anderson went through will expose this and Carte Blanche does not want to do this because it may embarass both parties with the SA Mint being part of the ANC Government. Carte Blanche itself is answerable to the same government so they are careful not to stand on the toes that belong to the same foot.

 

The magazine Personal Finance in 2012 did not have the same restriction as Carte Blanche and exposed all parties involved ..please see "Fools Gold : Are Medallions worth more than their weight in gold?"

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

HI Geejay

 

Carte Blanche did an interview with Alan Demby earlier this year. Any way i can get in touch with you to discuss Scoin. I would like to know more about the case you won because i intend on taking scoin to court soon.

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