Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
geejay50

Is SANGS a reasonable option to NGC in Coin Grading ?

Recommended Posts

geejay50

Hi Guys,

 

I think someone has to address this subject as graded coins have become the benchmark around which coin values are determined along with the respective pop reports and scarcity. I have noticed some coin sellers will market a high graded SANGS coin with an NGC pop report reference to scarcity as if the SANGS graded coin features within the NGC pop report !!!!

 

SANGS is IN South Africa, relatively cheap, markets itself as "understanding" South African coins better than the USA third party graders. This sounds an attractive option indeed as long as the grading standard is similar.

 

NGC has become more expensive especially with the weakened Rand and the coin needs to be of a certain value and quality to be worth the cost.Safety of shipping is an issue too although in over ten years of grading using couriers, I have yet to lose a coin.That includes Veldponde, Burgers Ponden , Single Shaft Ponden etc. They have all gone and come back. NCS is also a valuable option not offered by SANGS and coin conservation can make a huge difference to coin grade appearance and value. The NGC coin grader is an independent person and is not contactible by the coin owner such that the grading cannot be influenced.The grader may also not have a collection of his/her own or be involved in the rare coin market. At SANGS this has not been the case. So does this all matter ??

 

Well I have recently sent a number of SANGS graded Union coins away to NGC (removed from SANGS capsules) on behalf of another person and would like to to draw a comparison between SANGS grade and NGC grades fetched to give the market a chance to make their own decisions.We need numbers to form a valid opinion.NGC grade is given first then the SANGS grade in bracketts. I must add that there were two SANGS coins that I did not send because in my view they didnt have any chance of an NGC grade.

 

1929 2/6 NGC AU55 (AU55)

1931 2/6 NGC Fdetails surface hairlines (VF30)

1925 Florin NGC VF details surface hairlines (XF40)

1935 Two Shilling NGC Unc details surface hairlines (MS64)

1936 Two Shilling NGC MS64 (MS62 - undergraded)

1923 1/- NGC AU details surface hairlines (MS62)

1930 1/- NGC AU53 (MS61)

1930 1/- NGC Unc details surface hairlines (MS62)

1927 6d NGC AU53 (MS62)

1929 6d NGC AU58 (MS61)

1928 3d NGC AU details surface hairlines (MS61)

1936 3d NGC MS63 (MS64)

 

In summary of the 12 formerly SANGS coins sent , 6 graded , 6 did not because of NGC ajudged cleaning (surface hairlines). Of the 6 coins graded one was undergraded by SANGS, one equal to the NGC grade and four overgraded by SANGS.

 

I hope this helps the cash strapped SA collector to make up his/her own mind?

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Geejay,

 

I don't pay attention to the price performance of SANGS holdered coins except in isolation, don't own any and don't ever have any intention of submitting any.

 

I will be interested in seeing how many replies you get to this topic, as you may remember how many contributors came here to defend this service when it was first launched. I found the responses on both sides simultaneously interesting and amusing.

 

It should be apparent that regardless of whether the NGC (and PCGS) or SANGS grading is "accurate", the market has collectively determined that coins in NGC (and PCGS) holders are preferred. The price variances prove it and the best example was that SANGS MS-63 Burgers Pond which later ended up in a PCGS MS-64+ holder and which Heritage sold for about $100,000 USD more than its prio sale at DNW.. This was exactly my prediction when the service launched because as I stated at the time, a (prospective) buyer has zero reason to prefer a SANGS coin with an identical grade. They have nothing to gain and potentially something to lose.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zarmaniac

Hi Georg

 

SANGS are definitely more lenient on hairlines, but I have found their grading to be on par with the last batch we have sent to NGC.

Here are some of my examples of SANGS graded coins sent to NGC.

1892 Pond Double Shaft MS64 - NGC MS64

1892 1/2Pond MS64 - NGC MS63

1892 1/2Pond MS63 - NGC MS62

1892 5/ SS MS63 - NGC MS63

1892 5/ DS AU58 - NGC AU58

1895 1/2Pond AU58 - NGC MS62

1895 2/6 MS62 - NGC Surface Hairlines

1896 2/6 MS62 - NGC Surface Hairlines

1896 3p MS66 - NGC MS66

1896 3p MS62 - NGC MS64 after NCS

1896 2/6 MS65 - NGC MS63

1902 Veldpond MS62- NGC AU58

1902 Veldpond AU details - NGC MS63

1888 Pattern 1d MS64 - NGC MS63

1928 2/6 MS61 - NGC MS63 after NCS

1935 2/6 AU58 - NGC AU55

1936 2/6 MS62 - AU58

 

So out of 17 coins only 2 did not grade, 4 graded better, 7 graded lower and the rest were the same.

 

Regards

Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Werner,

 

Thanks for the great input. The coins you mention are mostly ZAR and the ones I sent Union exclusively. I am not sure that SANGS grade the same for these two issues and that they are comparable.

 

Also the coins I sent were some of the early SANGS coins to be graded I think. Graders have changed at SANGS I believe and their standard may be improving.

 

Even so at the end of the day it seems that one will want such high quality coins to be in an NGC capsule with an internationally recognised pedigree but if you can pick them up at a discount in a SANGS capsule why not do so ? Decent raw ZAR / Union coins are mostly unobtainable these days.

 

I remember being at an open auction of ZAR and Union coins all in SANGS capsules two years ago and at that time the twenty or so gold ZAR coins went all unsold because they were all not what their grades suggested and had problems. In my limited experience, one can go through many SANGS graded coins before one can find some that will meet the standards of NGC/PCGS. The coins that you mention above must represent a small minority of SANGS graded coins that you sifted out to be worth the cost and delay of sending to the US.

 

This is not to say that NGC or PCGS are without issues but they do seem to hold a higher standard overall.

 

Regards

 

Georg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

Sela, Sela

Edited by Pierre_Henri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
republikein

I have seen so many coins in SANGS holders (on BOB) with surface hairlines ... coins that will never grade at NGC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Republikein,

 

I have been in general disappointed with SANGS and their grading standards with a few exceptions that are sometimes undergraded to really confuse but give opportunities to the sharp eyed observers.

 

Here is an example currently on the market http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/19825...INT_STATE.html

 

This coin wont even get AU at NGC/PCGS that is if they forgive the scratch above the head of Lady Cape. There is frank wear across the cheek and shoulder of George V and loss of some of the jewels. Even the fields have wear with only some edge lustre remaining. I would give this one XF40 at best and VF35 at worst !!

 

If we are proudly South African , we can only be ashamed of these shoddy standards of grading.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

VF-35 looks charitable to me for that 1927 1/-. It's hard to tell from the image but the only thing going for it that I can see is that the color appears to be natural because most of these coins are "white" whereas based upon the age, it should expected that a larger percentage should be toned.

 

In any event, I don't see that the coin is worth anywhere near R8,000. I suspect this coin in an NGC or PCGS holder with what in all likelihood is the properly assigned grade of VF is currently worth less than $100USD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gabriel 1
On 9/18/2015 at 7:26 AM, geejay50 said:

If we are proudly South African , we can only be ashamed of these shoddy standards of grading

Has anyone ever approached SANGS for comment on this issue?, I am a fairly new collector and have started using SANGS as I believe in supporting our local experts. I am concerned that this will come back to bite me. If we work with them rather than against them I believe that they will improve. Perhaps some you guys should meet with them and point out their mistakes. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dcdoberman

Yes, SANGS sucks. .

 I've only been collecting coins for a couple of years ,but have received SANGS graded coins which I  consider greatly overgraded and after reading the above comments am convinced I'm right. I buy coins to complete sets and therefor open the holders once received. I buy these graded coins as this service,  I  was led to believe, would assist in 'sight unseen ' problems when buying online.  ( this has been true as far as NGC and PCGS is concerned )

I have found it extremely easy to open the SANGS holders , sometimes without any visible damage to holders.......

So yes SANGS sucks for at least one of the following reasons , but more likely both.

1. They are really simply just incompetent graders.

2. Their holders are not up to the task and coins are being exchanged and sold on to unsuspecting newcomers to this hobby, which I have found to have so many unsavoury characters it would scare off a Somalian pirate.

I think the monetization of the hobby is part of the problem and the grading aspect has increased this side of the hobby with people not really interested in the hobby just trying to make a buck. 

P.S. I also believe that any dealer should not be a collector as this is clearly a conflict of interest.

Regards

Des

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
KahlilG
37 minutes ago, dcdoberman said:

Yes, SANGS sucks. .

 I've only been collecting coins for a couple of years ,but have received SANGS graded coins which I  consider greatly overgraded and after reading the above comments am convinced I'm right. I buy coins to complete sets and therefor open the holders once received. I buy these graded coins as this service,  I  was led to believe, would assist in 'sight unseen ' problems when buying online.  ( this has been true as far as NGC and PCGS is concerned )

I have found it extremely easy to open the SANGS holders , sometimes without any visible damage to holders.......

So yes SANGS sucks for at least one of the following reasons , but more likely both.

1. They are really simply just incompetent graders.

2. Their holders are not up to the task and coins are being exchanged and sold on to unsuspecting newcomers to this hobby, which I have found to have so many unsavoury characters it would scare off a Somalian pirate.

I think the monetization of the hobby is part of the problem and the grading aspect has increased this side of the hobby with people not really interested in the hobby just trying to make a buck. 

P.S. I also believe that any dealer should not be a collector as this is clearly a conflict of interest.

Regards

Des

 

 

Des,

 

I have to agree with you on some of your points raised. I short SANGS performers just really awful if compared to more tried and tested grading companies. In most cases, SANS assign outrages grades to coins. TWo years ago about via a reputable dealer I bought to scarce Union coins.both coins were graded at SANGS as MS64. Immediately after I received these coins I realized the incorrect grading made on the two coins. it was horrendous. So after getting home, a decided to phone the dealer, he informed me that we are welcome to bring our lawyers into the picture. then we can sort it our like businessmen. I told this dealer that Just for the sake of proofing poor quality standards by SANGS these coins will be sent to NCS then NGC for grading. The outcome from the NGC route was to be expected. One coin AU details and the other AU58. After receiving these coins back from NGC, I started making some noise. Once again I was told about lawyers, and the dealer then suggests that I return these coins to him, who will have these two coins graded at SANGS as MS64 again. According to this dealer, I could them at least sell these coins and make my money back. This to me was a shock, how could that dealer feel that it would be ok to take premium money for ?iffy" coins, then have the grades proven wrong by NGC, then have them regraded by SANGS as MS64 in order for me to sell these coins to some unsuspecting new coin collector.

This was such an evil deal, how could I have "screwed" someone else for my own benefit knowing these two coins were problematic coins.

I also believe that certain people working for SANGS are also collectors. I think that practice is a dubious practice, and have even heard that graders are allowed to grade coins from their own collections.

In, my opinion SANGS is a no-no, and nobody should even consider buying of sending coins tho SANGS for grading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dcdoberman

Yes, from your post it seems SANGS sucks to a even higher degree I thought possible.

I will therefore henceforth disregarded all SANGS grades and only purchase these "graded" coins as if they are raw and therefore no bid unless very clear and high quality pics are included and they're from trustworthy seller. 

P.S. I also don't understand why collectors send coins for grading. Should this not only be dealers doing so as to sell on as sight unseen.

Regards

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gabriel 1

Again I ask, has anyone approached SANGS for comment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 2:36 PM, dcdoberman said:

Yes, SANGS sucks. .

 I've only been collecting coins for a couple of years ,but have received SANGS graded coins which I  consider greatly overgraded and after reading the above comments am convinced I'm right. I buy coins to complete sets and therefor open the holders once received. I buy these graded coins as this service,  I  was led to believe, would assist in 'sight unseen ' problems when buying online.  ( this has been true as far as NGC and PCGS is concerned )

I have found it extremely easy to open the SANGS holders , sometimes without any visible damage to holders.......

So yes SANGS sucks for at least one of the following reasons , but more likely both.

1. They are really simply just incompetent graders.

2. Their holders are not up to the task and coins are being exchanged and sold on to unsuspecting newcomers to this hobby, which I have found to have so many unsavoury characters it would scare off a Somalian pirate.

I think the monetization of the hobby is part of the problem and the grading aspect has increased this side of the hobby with people not really interested in the hobby just trying to make a buck. 

P.S. I also believe that any dealer should not be a collector as this is clearly a conflict of interest.

Regards

Des

 

 

In my experience, South African buyers seem to take the approach that third party grading makes "sight unseen" buying low risk.  For those of you who hope US buyers will inflate the price level by buying Union or ZAR, US collectors don't treat most coins this way.  Discriminating collectors won't do it for NGC or PCGS, the latter which is preferred for US coinage.  It predominantly applies to "widgets", or coins which are common or incredibly common, such as an 1881-S Morgan dollar which when I last checked, had a combined population count of about 370,000.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:44 PM, KahlilG said:

Des,

 

I have to agree with you on some of your points raised. I short SANGS performers just really awful if compared to more tried and tested grading companies. In most cases, SANS assign outrages grades to coins. TWo years ago about via a reputable dealer I bought to scarce Union coins.both coins were graded at SANGS as MS64. Immediately after I received these coins I realized the incorrect grading made on the two coins. it was horrendous. So after getting home, a decided to phone the dealer, he informed me that we are welcome to bring our lawyers into the picture. then we can sort it our like businessmen. I told this dealer that Just for the sake of proofing poor quality standards by SANGS these coins will be sent to NCS then NGC for grading. The outcome from the NGC route was to be expected. One coin AU details and the other AU58. After receiving these coins back from NGC, I started making some noise. Once again I was told about lawyers, and the dealer then suggests that I return these coins to him, who will have these two coins graded at SANGS as MS64 again. According to this dealer, I could them at least sell these coins and make my money back. This to me was a shock, how could that dealer feel that it would be ok to take premium money for ?iffy" coins, then have the grades proven wrong by NGC, then have them regraded by SANGS as MS64 in order for me to sell these coins to some unsuspecting new coin collector.

This was such an evil deal, how could I have "screwed" someone else for my own benefit knowing these two coins were problematic coins.

I also believe that certain people working for SANGS are also collectors. I think that practice is a dubious practice, and have even heard that graders are allowed to grade coins from their own collections.

In, my opinion SANGS is a no-no, and nobody should even consider buying of sending coins tho SANGS for grading.

Your experience doesn't surprise me, though I don't live in your country and have had very limited dealings with local dealers in South Africa.  From review of listings on Bob and South African dealer websites, I do know though that there is a culture of trying to rip buyers off.  I don't look on BoB much anymore but when I do and did, I see fantasy ask prices repeatedly and the ask prices by dealers were frequently an absolute rip off as well.  In some instances at least, I suspect or know that the ask price was supposedly justified using the fictional Hern list price, regardless that the actual market value is a miniscule fraction.

The dealer conduct you describe doesn't inspire a lot of confidence either, unless you left something out.  The only factor in their defense is that you shouldn't have removed the coin from the holder unless you had their prior consent (in writing) to do so and still return the coin.  In the US, this would be enough to negate any return privilege but you never mentioned whether a return period applied.  This is normally necessary to protect dealers by preventing buyers from damaging or switching coins and then trying to return it.  With an actually scarce coin though, I would still expect that the dealer should be able to confirm it was the con they sold and whether it remained in the same condition.

The behavior I describe along with the losses "collectors" experienced during the bubble, it scares potential future collectors away.  And yet I still read posts here (both explicit and implicit) expressing surprise why more prospective collectors couldn't just wait to pay hugely inflated prices and end up as bag holders later, all just so current owners can make a profit.  That is really shocking, isn't it? 

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Manfred1
On 9/17/2017 at 9:44 PM, KahlilG said:

I also believe that certain people working for SANGS are also collectors. I think that practice is a dubious practice, and have even heard that graders are allowed to grade coins from their own collections.

In, my opinion SANGS is a no-no, and nobody should even consider buying of sending coins tho SANGS for grading.

I'll submit my half cent opinion ...

Firstly, all TPG have issues ... i own a coin graded by one of the two top companies, that was incorrectly labelled. Can not remember the correct details but it was in the line of a 3d labelled as a 6p. If you want detail i can provide it at a later stage.

I totally agree with "jwither" ... i only recently started to buy graded coins on BoB. I have very limited opportunities to get my coins graded, and therefore try to buy them graded. (I'm Namibian and not South African)

The only time i will buy a coin graded by SANGS is when the price is reasonable for that coin. I will automatically lower the grading by one, and then consider the slab as protection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Posted (edited)

Hi Manfred,

Thanks for your post, I agree totally with you that all TPG companies have issues and that NGC for example does make mistakes. I certainly do not always agree with "jwither" and do not want to get into interminable discussions.

The difference is that NGC will firstly LISTEN to one's complaint and secondly fix that mistake AT THEIR COST

To prove this I recently had some similar mistakes made to the legend on a few coins in a parcel sent for a friend. NGC corrected the mistakes AND paid for the fedex costs of shipment.

The only inconvenience was the delays in sending back.

I have been sending coins to NGC and PCGS on a cost basis for others in our area for more than 10 years. The last parcel of 45 coins arrived at Sarasota a week or two before Hurricane Irma. There were some anxious collectors at the time but all well. I have not lost a coin in all that time.

If SANGS had to correct all the mistakes they have and will make they would go out of business. The extent of those mistakes are way in excess of the mistakes made by NGC and PCGS. Let us keep perspective and not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Geejay

 

 

Edited by geejay50
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×