1965 1c Afrikaans, Proof and Thick Flan

[zarmaniac 10]

Hi All

 

I see there is a 1965 1c Afrikaans PF62 Thick Flan listed on bidorbuy.

 

Thickness 1.7mm as appose to the 1.57mm.

 

Have you seen one?

 

www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/187677229/1965_1c_Thick_Flange.html

 

Not sure if we realize just how scarce this coin is. NGC has 7 graded in Proof, and two new business strike patterns recently discovered, graded as MS.

 

There are only 5 graded of the normal proof Afrikaans coins.

 

See NGC stats and photo of the actual double thick flan compared to a normal flan attached.

 

Hern puts a value of R20000 for the Thick flan and R7500 for the normal proof. Think this value is very low?

 

Your thoughts?

 

Regards

[Pierre_Henri 24]

Very interesting

 

These thick coins are called piedfort(s).

 

For those interested, here are more info

 

Piedfort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jwither 11]

R20000 is a lot of money for a coin which doesn't look much different from the "regular" coin.

 

Many (all?) of these low mintage RSA proofs have high catalogue prices but I don't believe they are as scarce as most in your country seem to believe, don't believe they will hardly ever sell for the Hern catalog prices as most Union or ZAR don't either and I can think of plenty of better coins to buy from both South Africa and elsewhere for the same money.

 

The NGC census is irrelevant to its actual scarcity as it (once again) assumes that most have been graded.

 

I don't know how many of these exist. I can cetainly tell you though that the reason for the low census counts for the regular proof issue is that the low value makes it a waste of money to submit it.

 

If you like the coin, go ahead and buy it. But to answer your question, no, I don't think the value is low at all and I certainly wouldn't pay R50000 for such a low grade proof which is exactly what this seller is offering.

 

In the past, there have been posts asking about the value of this type of coin. Even aside from the collecting aspects, there aren't very many big spenders of RSA and few who who randomly buy a coin just because of its narrow form of rarity. Supposedly "cheap" rare or low mintage coins are priced as they are for a reason. Most collectors do not find them compelling.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jwither

[johangou 10]

jwither you are welcome to your opinion but at a coin show in Durban I asked Eddie Absill and Michael Kaplan if they have ever seen one and both said no. Have you ever seen a 1965 1c in proof... So I would like to differ from you opinion that it was a waste of my money to submit this regular proof issue for grading And lastly should we now not look at NGC census as it is irrelevant .... Sorry dont agree here as well

[Cold Sea 1]

Just put the coin on auction with a R1 start, and the market will determine it's current value. A low grade Afrikaans cent sold for R1500 recently, but maybe the grade won't matter that much here.

[jwither 11]

jwither you are welcome to your opinion but at a coin show in Durban I asked Eddie Absill and Michael Kaplan if they have ever seen one and both said no. Have you ever seen a 1965 1c in proof... So I would like to differ from you opinion that it was a waste of my money to submit this regular proof issue for grading And lastly should we now not look at NGC census as it is irrelevant .... Sorry dont agree here as well

 

I think you have an inflated opinion of this coin, just as many others do both on this forum for any number of other South African coins and the NGC Message Boards for a large number of US coins.

 

Have I seen this coin before? No, not that I recall. But tell me this, what exactly is so interesting or compelling about this coin other than its narrow form of rarity? There are many other early RSA coins with either the English or Afrikaans legend which are similar to it. There are also many patterns which look essentially identical to the regular circulating coinage. I don't know how scarce all of them are but I don't think there is anything significant about them either. Across the South African series, there are a lot of coins which are also scarce and some rare. Are all of them significant? If so, based upon what?

 

On the NGC census, you can read my prior posts explaining the proper method to interprept the counts. I will add a link if you need it. There have been any number of contributors in my 6+ years here who have made comments similar to yours or who think likewise. I don't know exactly how scarce this coin is but regardless, there isn't any reason to believe the NGC census is complete for most coins outside of the United States. Those on this forum who have commented on this subject either don't know how to interprept the counts properly or intentionally misinterprept them and because they do it consistently, I conclude it is to exaggerate the likely scarcity and price potential.

 

When I made my last comments, I didn't know you bought this coin. You asked if others think this value is very low. My answer is that it isn't because:

 

1) Its rarity is a very narrow one based upon the legend which I don't believe is important to more than a minimal number of collectors at anywhere near the prices you quoted.

2) The series isn't very popular at all; and

3) Regardless of what coins any collector favors, to any impartial observer, it should be apparent that there are a vast number of others which have (much) better numismatic merits which sell for the same price or less.

 

What I am telling you here, its equally true of any number of coins outside of South Africa. In the United States, every rare coin is expensive because of the huge collector base. Elsewhere, most rare coins are cheap because few find them interesting. The rarity alone is irrelevant because the number of collectors who go out of their way to buy a coin just because of its rarity is very low.

 

If you don't see this, its because you are not familiar with how most collectors approach collecting. If most South African collectors think there is something significant about a coin just because it is rare, I believe they are the only ones who do so and it is one of many reasons which explains why collecting is much less popular than in many other countries.

Edited June 3, 2015 by jwither

[johangou 10]

Just put the coin on auction with a R1 start, and the market will determine it's current value. A low grade Afrikaans cent sold for R1500 recently, but maybe the grade won't matter that much here.

Pity I missed it I would have bought it

[johangou 10]

Uninteresting series yes but with a mintage of 185 I the Afr 1c proof surely it must be collectable. You now coments like yours makes lot of people not even want to look at the forum at all. I wish you well I am also leaving the forum

[testrarossa 10]

I might not agree with jwither on most of his posts like most people on here but I feel its good to have more than one perspective when discussing our hobby. If people want to listen to yes-men its their money wasted after all. Here's a couple links which I got from youtube and thou not related to the mentioned coin it gives me the impression of cheerleading rulling our hobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSjvMEWaiT

[Cold Sea 1]

If the price was right and the coin was so sought after, it would have been sold already. Why are the lucky few who belongs to the R50 000.00 buyer’s club not buying. Maybe they all have a thick flan already and the market is “saturated” for this coin in this price range. If that is so, the coin is overpriced, even though it is scarce. jwither’s take about grading this coin is worth thinking about. Will grading increase the value, or just confirm that it is genuine. I always take my hat off to Pierre and others with R1 auction starts, where the coins in demand nearly always find the “right” buyer with the “right” price, not an opinion price.

[jwither 11]

Uninteresting series yes but with a mintage of 185 I the Afr 1c proof surely it must be collectable. You now coments like yours makes lot of people not even want to look at the forum at all. I wish you well I am also leaving the forum

 

I did not say it wasn't collectible. What I am telling you is that it should be apparent from the available data that you apparently think this coin is a lot more significant than other collectors do, even within South Africa, never mind anywhere else..

 

If you own this coin, like it and concurrently don't care about the financial aspects, then it doesn't matter what you paid for it. Given the posting history in general on this forum, something tells me that this isn't remote;ly true and this is why you do not like what I wrote.

If you do own this coin and paid a "high price" for it, i don't believe it is a good financial value at all for either R20,000 or R50,000 and if you do not like this opinion, I don't know what else to say. I am certainly not going to agree with you just to make you happy. I call a spade a spade, whether anyone else here likes it or not.

[jwither 11]

I might not agree with jwither on most of his posts like most people on here but I feel its good to have more than one perspective when discussing our hobby. If people want to listen to yes-men its their money wasted after all. Here's a couple links which I got from youtube and thou not related to the mentioned coin it gives me the impression of cheerleading rulling our hobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSjvMEWaiT

 

Nobody has to agree with me, whether here or otherwise. As for "cheerleading", that is exactly what dominates this forum and has since I started posting here over six years ago. No one is completely objective but to say that I have been far more objective than those who consistently disagree with me is a huge understatement to put it mildly.

 

I know some of my comments are harsh but the main reason most do not like them is because I contradict their preferences for higher prices. If I was a "yes" man, then I am sure those who disagree with my views would change their mind tomorrow. What value is that?

 

Obviously, some of the difference between my position and others includes a difference of opinion. However, my opinions are far better supported than anyone else who posts here and have been since I started posting. I cannot even begin to tell you how many logical fallacies and factual inaccuracies i have read here which are complete balderdash. Many of the comments I have challenged and repudiated are completely baseless and have no merit whatsoever. Yet those who write these comments just "make it up" to try to convince others that the coins they own should be worth (a lot) more. I see no other motivation for it.

[jwither 11]

If the price was right and the coin was so sought after, it would have been sold already. Why are the lucky few who belongs to the R50 000.00 buyer’s club not buying. Maybe they all have a thick flan already and the market is “saturated” for this coin in this price range. If that is so, the coin is overpriced, even though it is scarce. jwither’s take about grading this coin is worth thinking about. Will grading increase the value, or just confirm that it is genuine. I always take my hat off to Pierre and others with R1 auction starts, where the coins in demand nearly always find the “right” buyer with the “right” price, not an opinion price.

 

Here is another analysis of this coin which puts it in what I think is its proper perspective.

 

The mintage of the 1965 1c with the Afrikaans legend is 185. ( i don't have my Hern catalogue with me, as I am out of town on business now.) If the catalog price is R20,000 and assuming it is accurate (which of course, it isn't), how does this compare to other South African coins of comporable mintage?

 

The 1937-1946 proofs have mintages of 104 to 150. I don't know how many of them survived but for the sake of discussion, I assume most for all do. If not, I concurrently assume that more of the 1965 do because it is more recent, though this might not be true.

 

Whatever the actual number, I can still buy any of these Union proofs for less than R20,000 except maybe in the better grades for a few of the 1937, probably the 2/- or 2/6 in a grade of 65 or better. Most for a lot less.

So now, why would I pay more for this 1965 1c just because the legend differs and prefer it over one of these Union proofs? Even if I personally preferred the 1965 1c, it should be obvious that most South African collectors do not and that it should sell for less. What exactly is so difficult to understand about this obvious logic? This is the type of illogical reasoning I have encountered on this forum over and over again since started posting here and I find it completely ridiculous.

 

Now what about the difference in the planchet? Sure, it is a novelty but is there any reason at all to believe that more than a handful of collectors will really care to pay a substantial premium over the "regular" coin which apparently according to the Hern catalogue, is already relatively overpriced? If there is a reason, what exactly is it?

 

My answer is that there isn't any reason at all. I know for the coin generically, there aren't remotely anywhere near 185 collectors who are willing to pay anywhere near R20,000 for it. For this particular specimen with the thicker planchet, maybe from a handful to as many as five, if that. And of those who are, given the mentality in your country which has an outsized emphasis on the financial aspects, they are almost certainly only likely to want it to sell it for more later. This is the reason why I question if there is even one real collector who wants it at R20,000 or R50,000.

 

In my prior posts, I have attempted to explain that it is collector behaviour which drives preferences, how they collect, the demand for a coin and with it, the price. Those who disagree with me disproportionately ignore this entire chain of logic, though none have ever said so.

 

Most collectors at least elsewhere are set collectors of one kind or another. If this is not true of South Africa, i believe your country is an outlier. I have never heard of collectors elsewhere who disproportionately collect random coins without some end goal (as in a set) in mind.

 

Those who buy the 1965 1c with the Afrikaans legend are almost certainly defining their sets by the Hern catalogue which is a common but actually arbitrary definition. If I collected RSA, I would use my own definition which may or may not include these language coins. If it didn't, I wouldn't give a hoot whether my set met anyone else's definition of completion or not. I certainly wouldn't buy a coin i consider exorbitantly overpriced (such as this one) just to meet some arbitrary definition of completion.

 

The same goes for this thicker planchet coin. No one needs it to complete anything. Other than its novelty value, I don't see why anyone would pay anything more than for one of the other 184 coins. From the standpoint of set completion, it doesn't differ from any number of errors, patterns or die varieties which aren't required for this purpose either. I also further suspect that the difference to most is so minor that either most (or even all) of the prior owners didn't even realize it differed from the regular planchet coins.

Edited June 5, 2015 by jwither

[jwither 11]

jwither you are welcome to your opinion but at a coin show in Durban I asked Eddie Absill and Michael Kaplan if they have ever seen one and both said no. Have you ever seen a 1965 1c in proof... So I would like to differ from you opinion that it was a waste of my money to submit this regular proof issue for grading And lastly should we now not look at NGC census as it is irrelevant .... Sorry dont agree here as well

 

I just noticed in your listing under "Q&A" you referred to our post exchange. Since apparently you find it necessary to do this, I will tell you and everyone else here that I think your ask price of R50,000 is a complete rip-off. And you can quote me on it too.

[johangou 10]

Jwither I challenge you to show you that you are wrong. The Cat for the Afr 1c in proof is R7500. I will buy all the NGC graded Afr1c proof coins from you for R20 000. Now put our money where your mouth is

[johangou 10]

I just noticed in your listing under "Q&A" you referred to our post exchange. Since apparently you find it necessary to do this, I will tell you and everyone else here that I think your ask price of R50,000 is a complete rip-off. And you can quote me on it too.

 

This price is double catalog and according to you a rip- off. I challenge you to get me 1965 1c Afr Proof NGC PF61 and better for three times catalog (R 7500). So I will pay you R21500 on a Buy now on BoB . I will even go further and Pay you R25 000 for a PF64 or better graded at NGC. The reason is also to hit your theory of grading for a six. People who do not grade sit with a coin that will grade au details hairlines in their collection. For a start please stop at 4 coins as I have only R100000 to spend now with you.......

[johangou 10]

I just noticed in your listing under "Q&A" you referred to our post exchange. Since apparently you find it necessary to do this, I will tell you and everyone else here that I think your ask price of R50,000 is a complete rip-off. And you can quote me on it too.

 

You will see I have added this coment on my listing....I am not a cheat or fly by night. The point is the coin is rare and if somebody don't want to buy at this price fine go and get it at a dealer ....if you can. What I wanted to get was discussion about the value of 1965 1c Afr coins and whaaw what a response I got

[Ni28 11]

Has anybody weighed one the thick flan coins to get the weight of these coins? As the normal 1c weighs 3 grams, a crude calculation of thickness ratios (1.57 mm and 1.7 mm) gives an approximate weight of 3.25 grams for the thick flan coin. How accurate is this? This is unfortunately one of the problems of TPG and encapsulation as the coin cannot be weighed until one cracks it out of the slab again.

 

I have been intrigued for quite a while why these thick flan coins were struck and could not find a satisfactory answer. For me, this is the fun part of the hobby trying to answer these questions and that is also why I am occasionally willing to pay the rather steep prices for these rare coins. The Coinage Act 78 of 1964 was published before the coins were minted and the act clearly stipulated the weight of the coin to be 3 grams with a maximum deviation of only 0.06 grams. There was therefore no reason to strike a pattern that will weigh more than 3 grams.

 

One possibility is that the thick flan coin was simply a mistake made by the Mint. The thickness of the 2c coin is coincidently 1.71 mm (Hern’s catalogue). Did the Mint accidently use the strips rolled for the 2c coin to punch a few 1c blanks and in the process gave us these rare 1c thick flan collectibles? Or did the Die and Medal Section at the Mint simply use whatever thickness copper alloy was available to test their new 1c dies? I will be very happy if anyone can shed some light on this.

 

I personally do not have a thick flan 1c in my collection after a ten year search and dearly want one. Will I be willing to pay the current asking price on BoB? Possibly. Will my wife kill me after the purchase? Most definitely!

[jwither 11]

Jwither I challenge you to show you that you are wrong. The Cat for the Afr 1c in proof is R7500. I will buy all the NGC graded Afr1c proof coins from you for R20 000. Now put our money where your mouth is

 

 

I don’t care what the catalog price is because it isn’t a real price and what you will pay for it isn’t either.And no, I am not wasting my time to go out and find a coin I don’t even want to meet your challenge,

 

The real measure of market value isn’t what you will pay for it but what it consistently sells for on the open market. Anyone including you can manipulate the price of a thinly traded coin like this one temporily. Is this your absurd point? If it is, good luck ever getting your money back because you will end up owning all of them and no one else will want them at remotely the price you paid for it.

 

When I posted my initial comments, I didn’t know you were the seller of this coin and I did not ask the original question. I opened the listing when zarmaniac posted his question but don’t have any idea who you are and didn’t even notice you were the seller. I gave my opinion of this coin’s merits as he asked and you do not like it. I don’t care that you do not like it because what I wrote is a reasonable analysis of what it is worth given its actual or likely scarcity and numismatic merits, whether you like it or not.

 

It isn’t my fault zarmaniac asked his question. It wasn’t my choice to buy this coin for what is likely a high price given the coins actual merits. I didn’t list it at an exorbitant price. And it it isn’t my problem the facts and logic contradict your perception of this coin and your personal preference.

 

If you want to prove your challenge, then make an open ended offer for this coin to anyone in your country and buy them from those who own them. Something tells me you will have plenty of sellers at your offer of R20,000. Then go ahead and list them on BoB so that everyone can see the result. I wish you luck.

Edited June 7, 2015 by jwither

[jwither 11]

You will see I have added this coment on my listing....I am not a cheat or fly by night. The point is the coin is rare and if somebody don't want to buy at this price fine go and get it at a dealer ....if you can. What I wanted to get was discussion about the value of 1965 1c Afr coins and whaaw what a response I got

 

. I never said you were a cheat.

 

You took exception to my initial comments because you see them as threatening your ability to sell your coin at your price.I have every right to answer zarmaniacs question and to provide my real opinion which is entirely appropriate, especially since I didn't even have a clue initially that you were the seller. I take exception to you bringing me into your listing which I think is inappropriate.

 

I don’t care if anyone buys your coin for this price or a lot more. Zarmaniac originally asked if it was worth this price and I said no. I gave my reasons which are entirely reasonable. Its my opinion but an entirely appropriate one.

 

Instead of debating me here, you chose to refer to our post exchange in your listing to supposedly discredit the opinion I provided. If you had a valid counterclaim to my prior comments, I presume you would have made it. As usual when I have had a similar debate with anyone here, you didn’t and the obvious reason is because my position is much better than yours.

 

If you think my position is so far off base,then instead of issuing a superficial challenge, tell me exactly why I am wrong in my assessment of this coin? Seriously, what exactly is so great about it that it should be worth more or a lot more than so many other coins which most collectors in your country consider better?

 

NZ28 said he might pay R50,000 for it. Well, you can negotiate with him and if he buys it, good for you. .

Edited June 7, 2015 by jwither

[johangou 10]

I don’t care what the catalog price is because it isn’t a real price and what you will pay for it isn’t either.And no, I am not wasting my time to go out and find a coin I don’t even want to meet your challenge,

 

Kip Kip Kip..... Now you change the subject... I offer you 3 times catalog You know you can no get this rare coin and then you bla bla bla . You are proved wrong this time Mr Forum. Cheers

[jwither 11]

Go buy this coin from everyone else and prove yourself right. The alternative I provided is a much better test than yours.

 

 

[johangou 10]

I want to put the Hatchet away. Normally I do not get cross so easily. But when you said an uninteresting series and this type of proof coins should not even be graded I lost it. The fact is the 1965 1c Afr in proof and the Thick flange is underrated compared to the brother the 1965 Eng 50c at R70000. Finish and klaar. So the Cat might be a little low and one can consider paying more for the 1c in proof. Yes R50 000 might be too much of a premium for my thick flange . But double Cat for the normal 1c in Proof is definitely not too high. I know of 3 guys that will jump if I advertise a 1965 1c Afr in proof for R20000. In the future please try and be shorter and stick to the point at issue with your coments. If you said my view is that R50 000 was a bit high I would have accepted your input. But then you bla bla a whole paragraph further about South African coins too expensive and grading is so bad and not even worth grading these coins....... I hope you will except my apology for losing it

[johangou 10]

 

I have been intrigued for quite a while why these thick flan coins were struck and could not find a satisfactory answer. For me, this is the fun part of the hobby trying to answer these questions and that is also why I am occasionally willing to pay the rather steep prices for these rare coins. The Coinage Act 78 of 1964 was published before the coins were minted and the act clearly stipulated the weight of the coin to be 3 grams with a maximum deviation of only 0.06 grams. There was therefore no reason to strike a pattern that will weigh more than 3 grams.

 

One possibility is that the thick flan coin was simply a mistake made by the Mint. The thickness of the 2c coin is coincidently 1.71 mm (Hern’s catalogue). Did the Mint accidently use the strips rolled for the 2c coin to punch a few 1c blanks and in the process gave us these rare 1c thick flan collectibles? Or did the Die and Medal Section at the Mint simply use whatever thickness copper alloy was available to test their new 1c dies? I will be very happy if anyone can shed some light on this.

 

I think this is great imput thanks. After this I must agree that the coin should be a pattern

And man do you have a sensible wife.....

[jwither 11]

I want to put the Hatchet away. Normally I do not get cross so easily. But when you said an uninteresting series and this type of proof coins should not even be graded I lost it. The fact is the 1965 1c Afr in proof and the Thick flange is underrated compared to the brother the 1965 Eng 50c at R70000. Finish and klaar. So the Cat might be a little low and one can consider paying more for the 1c in proof. Yes R50 000 might be too much of a premium for my thick flange . But double Cat for the normal 1c in Proof is definitely not too high. I know of 3 guys that will jump if I advertise a 1965 1c Afr in proof for R20000. In the future please try and be shorter and stick to the point at issue with your coments. If you said my view is that R50 000 was a bit high I would have accepted your input. But then you bla bla a whole paragraph further about South African coins too expensive and grading is so bad and not even worth grading these coins....... I hope you will except my apology for losing it

 

Yes, we all get emotional sometime. I wasn't trying to pick on you but there is a reason why I write the posts I do, the blatant bias on this forum You can go read the recent replies I provided to this unsubstantiated promotion if you have not done so.

 

In this topic, I wrote my initial posts in haste because I didn't check my data. I still don't think this coin is worth anywhere near this price but I mixed it up with the English version of the coin. This is the coin I wouldn't bother grading.

 

As for the prices of South Africa coins generally, yes I do think most of the coins favored by those who post here are overrated and overpriced. Why would I (or anyone else) believe otherwise given their actual merits? They are cheaper than those in the US but the US is an aberration and all of you should know by now I have the same opinion of these coins since I do not buy them.

 

On your last comments, what you apparently don't see is that all of these "off language" coins are overrated versus far preferred Union and ZAR by the standards of collectors in your country, not mine. Comparing your coin to the others don't change it.

 

I don't know how often you read this forum but if you missed my prior posts, you apparently don't know that there is no reason to believe any of the prices. Hern just makes them up, just as the US Krause guide does for its "world coin" catalogs. There is no evidence anywhere that Hern's prices are consistent with what most coins sell for except by accident, buyer ignorance or because the lowest value coins sell at a fixed price in a dealer shop. If there is, I have not seen it.

 

As I told you, if someone really wants your coin for their collection, I have no reason to tell them otherwise and I did not.

Edited July 5, 2015 by jwither