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Fake coins hurts our hobby

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Are you talking fakes on all coins or only on ZAR coins? the reason i ask this question how many sellers has the knollige to know it is a fake?? even SANGS and NGC has made those mistakes in the past where they will grade a coin and then it was a fake, SANGS picked up a veldpond from NGC that was a fake, so for the man in the street it is not so easy to know it is a fake. To ask a couple of coin collectors to get there view regarding it is a fake or not wont be helping as the gaint NGC makes mistakes.

Edited by bok2004

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I still say, as with Sammy Marks, allow the seller to list their fakes truthfully and BOB's your uncle.



I do not necessarily agree, but what a comment : -


"BOB's your uncle ..."


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Cold Sea

Hi Mike,


I think jwither sums it up far more eloquently than I will ever be able to. I remembered an article I read before. In it, Marx from SA Coin was quoted as saying amongst others the following:


We can't give a guarantee that we will secure the same price the buyer paid, but our client base is 30 000 people. Another distinction Marx points out between the R2.5-million sale and the Bid or Buy price of just over R50 000: online sales are to the general public, whereas when a client of SA Coin wants to sell a coin, the coin is listed and the customer base made aware, which helps keep prices intact.


And to add insult to injury:


Market value, he says, "is the overall accepted sense of the value of a coin among dealers who have experience in the field".


Or in other words, shut up stupid and join our church. On the flip side and in the same article Morne commented:


Try explaining to a 60-year-old guy that the R200 000 he spent on these coins is worth only R8 000. They will never buy coins again because people rip them off so badly.


My point is that some sellers, which include Union and modern conditionals, are trying to sell some items so high, that the item is used only as a tool to transact, and in the end is not a real asset. In other words, they are being ripped off. This then can only be a scam and is as good as a fake (a matter of degrees as jwither put it). With successful sales of these comes attention and the fakes will appear, with the blame, albeit indirectly, partly at the door of unscrupulous dealers. Remember, they determine market value.



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Correct Derick.


I believe the R2.5MM was for an NGC MS-69 2008 Mandela 5R. I find the comments you quoted from the SA Coin Company absurd and if they have a client base of 30,000 paying these inflated prices, I suspect that essentially none of them are collectors and all of them are "investors". I recall communicating with them once through email when SA coins were much harder to find than they are now. They didn't even know or at least acknowledge the difference between the 1892 NGC MS-64 RB PL penny I used to own and one without the designation. I also remember the prices they quoted me for ZAR were absurdly inflated and I would never buy anything from them.


i also agree that anyone who gets ripped off per the examples you provided is done with coins. But I also think that a similar argument could made to many who bought coins at the peak 2011 inflated prices even when the price was the "real" one. That is why I have stated on multiple occasions (more times than I can even remember) that the prior market was artificial, not healthy and not sustainable. Yet it is exactly what I think most who read my posts actually want.


Sometimes though, what is and isn't a rip off is not clear cut and subtle. To illustrate my point, I am going to use the eBay listing below, A 1727 Spain PCGS MS-63 Segovia 2R. (This coin is not from Seville and I specifically told the seller this while subtly implying that their price was absurd.)


I would consider this listing typical of many I have seen both on BoB and eBay. It is factually correct but misleading to anyone who knows what is actually being sold. The coin is a "pop 1" in the PCGS census and the color appears to be "original" (as opposed to "white" as so many of these coins are) and therefore, a "premium" coin for the grade by US standards.


At the same time, the coin is probably not "rare". I own two like it and I paid about $500 for each one within the last ten years. The 2R is easily the most common from this series even in high grades and those from the 1720's are the most common dates though I cannot tell you exactly which ones are more common than others. I do not see that it matters though because the number who collect them by date and MM must be very low. It's probably bought almost exclusively as a "type" coin. Also, the seller ignored the NGC census and conveniently failed to mention that most buyers of this coin do not like graded coins either, which is why the census counts are so low.


In my opinion, it can probably be bought in the vicinity of $500 at public auction today (such as on Heritage) and maybe its a $650 or $750 coin at "retail", at most. (Heritage recently sold a 1726 "M" NGC MS-64 1R for about $300 earlier this year, a coin which is smaller but probably of similar scarcity.)


If this were a coin that was actually rare, then I would say that even at 2+ times "retail", it could be reasonable. I say this because sometimes there are coins which are not high priced but very hard to find and prospective buyers should expect to pay a strong or very strong price if they want it.


This coin does not fit that description and 95% (if not more) of the coins in the Union and ZAR series do not either, regardless of the grade. Whoever ends up buying this coin at anywhere near $1475 is going to be "buried" in it, just as those who paid the 2011 prices for Union and ZAR are today.



Edited by jwither

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