Administrator deletes bid.

[TribalTrade 10]

I had a multiple listing auction yesterday on the Crazy Wednesday Promotions.

 

Other Small Appliances - 12 x "RESEAL AND SAVE" UNITS - Cordless Plastic Bag Heat Sealer - Keep your food fresher for longer! was sold for R30.00 on 8 May at 21:46 by TribalTrade in Vereeniging (ID:98846248)

 

On 8 May at 10:51 a buyer (rodriq) placed a bid. The auction closed last night with all the winners.

This morning at 03:59 I get an e-mail:

 

This bid has been deleted from your auction. Reason given: Deleted by Administrator. If the buyer has asked for bid/purchase to be deleted we are required to remove the bid according to the Consumer Protection Act. We do apologise for any inconvenience caused.

 

This is not right! Surely the process of SNC should now have been followed, as the auction closed with winners? I never received a request from this buyer to delete his bid.

 

Does Bidorbuy have the right to delete bids from a sellers auction? If they are just the platform for trading, and the deals are done between buyer and seller as always stated, then surely the seller must comply to the law and delete the bids themselves?

[Guest MacMuffin]

Hi there,

 

in some rare cases a user is able to double-submit the same bid - this happens rarely. In your case the buyer rodriq submitted the same bid type and we deleted the duplicate bid. You will notice that rodriq has still a winning bid.

[TribalTrade 10]

Thank you for clearing that up. I do see that the buyer still has an order to complete.:weird:

I would still appreciate clarity on my last question in the thread.

 

Do we as sellers have any recourse to deny a bid deletion if requested?

I have noticed that there are buyers abusing the CPA. They will place bids on numerous similar items at the very start of the auctions. When the auctions gets closer to closing time, then they look at where their winning bid is the lowest. Then suddenly a question comes through to delete the bid!

 

While we are on the topic, let's get this over and done with...

If a bid has been placed by a buyer, and I delete it, then the other winning bids drop in value. I feel that the winning bids should not drop, as this has serious financial implications, especilally if the auction is close to an end. Bidorbuy does not drop the price of a winning auction if a seller are found guilty of shill bidding, then why should the winning bids drop in value if a bid gets deleted?

 

Your feedback will be appreciated.

[Guest MacMuffin]

Cuan will answer in more detail - but full detail about the CPA is discussed here: http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/selling-bidorbuy/13213-consumer-protection-act-how-you-going-change-your-business.html

[qball 12]

Thank you for clearing that up. I do see that the buyer still has an order to complete.:weird:

I would still appreciate clarity on my last question in the thread.

 

Do we as sellers have any recourse to deny a bid deletion if requested?

I have noticed that there are buyers abusing the CPA. They will place bids on numerous similar items at the very start of the auctions. When the auctions gets closer to closing time, then they look at where their winning bid is the lowest. Then suddenly a question comes through to delete the bid!

 

While we are on the topic, let's get this over and done with...

If a bid has been placed by a buyer, and I delete it, then the other winning bids drop in value. I feel that the winning bids should not drop, as this has serious financial implications, especilally if the auction is close to an end. Bidorbuy does not drop the price of a winning auction if a seller are found guilty of shill bidding, then why should the winning bids drop in value if a bid gets deleted?

 

Your feedback will be appreciated.

 

In short, no. The bidder has protection under the CPA to have a bid deleted/removed before the auction ends, as stipulated in section 45 (3) - stating the following:

 

A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer announces its completion by the fall of the hammer, or in any other customary manner, and until that announcement is made, a bid may be retracted.

 

This in our view means either you as the seller or ourselves can remove the bid. The problem comes in when sellers are not online and they receive a request to remove the bid, it goes ignored or unanswered, so we will remove the bid if the bidder requests it.

 

Your second comment makes no logical sense, in that, if there are no higher bids, how are we to increase the bids when the leading bidder is removed/bid deleted? It must therefore go back to the original bid amount that the runner up bidder had placed prior to being outbid (this would include autobids), we cannot increase the runner up bidder's bid without his consent or him placing another, higher bid. Regarding shill bidding, it would be up to the bidder to take legal action against the shill bidder/seller, but again, we can only work off bids the bidders were willing to bid, we cannot drop it, as the other bidders were willing to bid that amount. We cannot award the outbid runner up the lower winning bid amount as the auction was tampered with/interfered with, as this may also affect more than one runner up/multiple bidders. In our view the auction is null and void due to the interference with the bidding.

[qball 12]

Should a bidder repeatedly ask for bids to be deleted, we can issue them with a cautionary note, however, we also need to recognise that we cannot just discriminate or penalise the bidder under the CPA, as it is a right to have a bid retracted.

[TribalTrade 10]

A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer announces its completion by the fall of the hammer, or in any other customary manner, and until that announcement is made, a bid may be retracted.

 

This in our view means either you as the seller or ourselves can remove the bid. The problem comes in when sellers are not online and they receive a request to remove the bid, it goes ignored or unanswered, so we will remove the bid if the bidder requests it.

 

So in other words, Bidorbuy is the "auctioneer". I can live with that. I still feel that Bidorbuy should then contact the seller first by telephone to inform him of the deletion, and if the seller is not available, then proceed. This gives the seller the opportunity to do damage control , instead of being caught unaware. If it is a big auction, and the runner-up bid drops so low that I am not prepared to sell at that price, I would like to delete the auction and re-list.

 

Your second comment makes no logical sense, in that, if there are no higher bids, how are we to increase the bids when the leading bidder is removed/bid deleted?

 

Maybe you do not understand my question. If there are multiple units on the auction, like with my sample listing in the first thread, and you delete the 6th highest winning bid, will the top 5 winning bidders bids also drop in value?

 

Should a bidder repeatedly ask for bids to be deleted, we can issue them with a cautionary note, however, we also need to recognise that we cannot just discriminate or penalise the bidder under the CPA, as it is a right to have a bid retracted.

 

I will send you the name of the bidder that I refer to for investigation. I do not know since when the perception started that ONLY A BUYER suddenly have rights, because there is a CPA! We as sellers / businesses and business owners must surely also have some say / rights in the matter. I think it is seriously time that Bidorbuy starts re-evaluating the importance of the sellers rights, as they are the ones bringing in the finances.

 

Do I have the right to delete the auction if one of the buyers requests that a bid gets deleted, and it impacts negatively on my sale?

[qball 12]

So in other words, Bidorbuy is the "auctioneer". I can live with that. I still feel that Bidorbuy should then contact the seller first by telephone to inform him of the deletion, and if the seller is not available, then proceed. This gives the seller the opportunity to do damage control , instead of being caught unaware. If it is a big auction, and the runner-up bid drops so low that I am not prepared to sell at that price, I would like to delete the auction and re-list.

 

 

 

Maybe you do not understand my question. If there are multiple units on the auction, like with my sample listing in the first thread, and you delete the 6th highest winning bid, will the top 5 winning bidders bids also drop in value?

 

 

 

I will send you the name of the bidder that I refer to for investigation. I do not know since when the perception started that ONLY A BUYER suddenly have rights, because there is a CPA! We as sellers / businesses and business owners must surely also have some say / rights in the matter. I think it is seriously time that Bidorbuy starts re-evaluating the importance of the sellers rights, as they are the ones bringing in the finances.

 

Do I have the right to delete the auction if one of the buyers requests that a bid gets deleted, and it impacts negatively on my sale?

 

We will not be contacting you. By the time we get responses, or feedback from a seller it's too late. therefore interfering with the bidders rights. You will receive email notice of the bid being removed.

 

You may not delete the auction, as the other bids are valid and legal.

 

The CPA has been around for awhile now, I strongly recommend you get up to speed with it.

 

Your rights do not supersede those of the bidder or consumer.

 

Regarding your question about multiple quantities and bidders, it should not, it will give the next bidder who comes along, the opportunity to bid the same amount as the first 5 winning bidders.

[Colin_P 10]

This gives the seller the opportunity to do damage control , instead of being caught unaware. If it is a big auction, and the runner-up bid drops so low that I am not prepared to sell at that price, I would like to delete the auction and re-list.

 

If you place an item up for auction you should set the reserve price such that you are not at risk. In my opinion you don't have the right to cancel an auction just because the bidding doesn't go your way. As a buyer I would be never bid on anything you list if you did that to an auction I was bidding in.

 

 

I think it is seriously time that Bidorbuy starts re-evaluating the importance of the sellers rights, as they are the ones bringing in the finances.

 

Actually, the buyers are providing the finances, the sellers are providing the items for sale. Without buyers no-one will make a cent. You just have to look at the percentage of auctions which end with no winners / bidders to realise that sellers and items for sale are not the scarce resource on BoB, the buyers with cash to spend are. Understanding that doesn't require too much business acumen.

[TribalTrade 10]

This thread has a heading: "FEEDBACK TO THE BIDORBUY TEAM", not "FEEDBACK TO THE COLIN P TEAM".

You are not even suppose to comment on this thread, if you know the Forum Rules,

 

If you place an item up for auction you should set the reserve price such that you are not at risk. In my opinion you don't have the right to cancel an auction just because the bidding doesn't go your way. As a buyer I would be never bid on anything you list if you did that to an auction I was bidding in.

 

The issue here is with multiple listings in an auction. I know that I must comply with the CPA, and have done so since its inception. If a buyer requests for a bid to be deleted, and the bid price FALLS as a result of this, then I have a right to stop the auction. It is because of that buyer that I will loose financially. I have sold many items at a loss, because I honor every bid!

 

The CPA is actually there to protect consumers from bad business behaviour and misrepresentation of products and defective merchandise. I can not just sit back and loose financially just because a buyer decides that he does not want an item any longer. In this instance I as a seller have not crossed any lines or broken any laws. If I delete an auction just because I did not reach my price, then I am guilty.

[Colin_P 10]

This thread has a heading: "FEEDBACK TO THE BIDORBUY TEAM", not "FEEDBACK TO THE COLIN P TEAM".

You are not even suppose to comment on this thread, if you know the Forum Rules,

 

I didn't navigate here by going through the thread, I navigated here by clicking on the new posts button, and so have never seen that rule. If the admin wants to delete my posts then I have no problem with that. I assume you have reported my post to them?

[TribalTrade 10]

@Colin - No hard feelings. I am just a bit flabbergasted at the non-responsive positive attitude from Bidorbuy towards my concern.

 

You may not delete the auction, as the other bids are valid and legal.

 

I will accept the bids as valid and legal, if the bid price does not decrease. Where did this rule of decreasing the bids come from? This is not regulated in the CPA. Those bidders were prepared to pay the bid price that they placed, and should stay as such.

 

I once had a situation where Bidorbuy blacklisted a buyer and deleted his bid, and as a result the winning bidders price dropped from R100 to R1! Now if Bidorbuy deletes a bid without consulting with the seller, the same thing will happen.

Edited May 9, 2013 by TribalTrade

[qball 12]

If you delete auctions because bids are lowered you will receive a warning and possible account restriction.

 

These are our terms of use.

[TribalTrade 10]

If you delete auctions because bids are lowered you will receive a warning and possible account restriction.

 

These are our terms of use.

 

Cuan, you fail to give me answers... just threads, because you can.

 

Let me give you my final point of view on the matter:

If I buy something from Game, and I get home and do not like what I bought, I will return the item to them. They do not loose financially.

If I buy something from Game, and I get home, open the box and find a damaged product inside, I return the item to them. They will get a credit from their supplier. They do not loose financially.

The fact remains in many scenarios, that business will not loose financially if a buyer returns goods.

WHY THEN SHOULD I LOOSE FINANCIALLY IF A BUYER DECIDED MINUTES BEFORE THE CLOSE OF AN AUCTION THAT HE DOES NOT LIKE THE PRODUCT? I did everything right. I presented the products exactly, and paid my dues in fees when I did the listing. This does not make sense to me, and I will surely make a study of this.

 

Maybe there are some other clever law fundies on the Forum that can give their input?

Were the law not intended to give the buyer the opportunity for deletion ONLY IF HE IS THE LEADING BIDDER?

[qball 12]

I have given you very clear and succinct answers, not threats. If you do delete auctions, that is the action that will be taken against your account, for contravention of our terms of use.

 

Your Game example cannot be used here, it is not an auction. Even if a bid is deleted your auction is generally still running. Auctions by their very nature are a risk, unless you set a reserve or a minimum start amount with which you will be happy to accept. If you cannot accept this risk then I advise you to sell on Buy Now or start your auctions off at an amount that you are willing to accept. Even if a bidder bids an amount that is not high enough in your view and no bids are deleted, you are still liable to sell the item at that amount.

 

The law allows the bidder to retract his bid, the auction and the remaining bids are still open and must remain so.

 

The law is quite clear as outlined earlier, no matter if you are the leading bidder or not.

[Little Miss Muffet 83]

The problem with a bid being deleted is that if the bidder has multiple bids on the auction all his bids get deleted and the price can drop radically.

Example

Bidder 1----R10

Bidder2 --- R20

Bidder 3---R30

Bidder 1---R40

Bidder 3---R50

Bidder 2---R60

Bidder 3---R70

Now bidder 3 wants his bid deleted. He has bid 3 times so the price drops from R70 to R40=The bids Bidder 1 & 2 have made

This is also open to abuse since bidders can push the price up with a bidder and can then get him to have his bids deleted in order to drop the price.

In fact the price of R60 does not go back to the next winning bidder .I think this is what tribaltrade means by multiple units on the auction.

Edited May 9, 2013 by geewhizz

[TribalTrade 10]

Auctions by their very nature are a risk,

 

Yes, but it is a calculated risk. I know more or less what price I should reach on a no-reserve auction. If I make anything less, then my gamble did not pay off.

Cuan, be honest with youself, and answer this question:

If you place a R100 000 car on a R1 auction, and an hour before close you get Bidder 3 like above to cancel his bid, and your price suddenly drops wit R40 000, are you going to sell?

 

Every auctioneer out there complies with the CPA, BUT they also have a set of rules and regulations on their own guiding that auction. I think it is time that Bidorbuy starts creating a set of regulations in line with the CPA, to protect sellers from abuse.

[Lukeness 10]

That's why auctioneers have reserve prices.

If you start the auction at R1, with no reserve, you are committing to selling the item for whatever price it sells at, even R1. The bid deletion simply takes the price back to where it would have been had the bid not been there in the first place.

The biggest downside is that that bidder may very well have put off other potential buyers with the high bids, resulting in a lower price than you may have got otherwise as those buyers may have moved on. Unfortunately, this is an inevitable side-effect of the CPA requirement.

[qball 12]

Yes, but it is a calculated risk. I know more or less what price I should reach on a no-reserve auction. If I make anything less, then my gamble did not pay off.

Cuan, be honest with youself, and answer this question:

If you place a R100 000 car on a R1 auction, and an hour before close you get Bidder 3 like above to cancel his bid, and your price suddenly drops wit R40 000, are you going to sell?

 

Every auctioneer out there complies with the CPA, BUT they also have a set of rules and regulations on their own guiding that auction. I think it is time that Bidorbuy starts creating a set of regulations in line with the CPA, to protect sellers from abuse.

 

We will not be doing this. You assume this risk every time you auction goods off.

[Little Miss Muffet 83]

Yes, but it is a calculated risk. I know more or less what price I should reach on a no-reserve auction. If I make anything less, then my gamble did not pay off.

Cuan, be honest with youself, and answer this question:

If you place a R100 000 car on a R1 auction, and an hour before close you get Bidder 3 like above to cancel his bid, and your price suddenly drops wit R40 000, are you going to sell?

 

Every auctioneer out there complies with the CPA, BUT they also have a set of rules and regulations on their own guiding that auction. I think it is time that Bidorbuy starts creating a set of regulations in line with the CPA, to protect sellers from abuse.

 

In the case of a car or high value item it would be best to allow the sale to go through then file an SNC then offer it to the previous highest bidder.

I still think this is open to abuse. It is easy for someone to get a friend to put in multiple bids then ask for them to be deleted

I was caught like this once and never again.