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geejay50

1894 Unc Halfcrown Forgery - Beware !!!

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geejay50

Hello all,

 

Please beware of item 261138576295 just listed by seller glorioustdung from China. It is a raw 1894 Halfcrown that looks like an Unc. It can be distinguished from the real coin by the straight sweep of the "4" instead of the curved one found in the real coin see pics below. We have been free of these Chinese forgeries for a fairly long time but they seem to have popped up again.

 

I have reported it to ebay and have notified the seller so it may disappear soon.

 

1894 South Africa 2 1 2 Shillings | eBay

 

Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4225[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4226[/ATTACH]

Edited by geejay50

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jicol

Thanks for alerting us Geejay.

 

Would be interesting to know if eBay do something to this Seller.

 

Jimmie

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JohnBenn

Well if the hat (name) fits wear it.:blink1:...glorioustdung

 

Ebay is not like BoB,they keep ignoring reports on forgers of stamp perfins,re-gumming, etc.They care about listing fees and that's it.

This is also why BoB is the place to buy and sell,they don't take sh#t.

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jwither

i do not believe it is entirely fair or correct to make that type of claim about eBay. Having no first hand experience in reporting a counterfeit coin, I cannot tell you how effective or diligent they are or are not. I agree with the sentiments you express to some degree because the same ones have been expressed by others on the NGC Message Boards, but it is NOT correct to claim or state that eBay completely ignores the selling of forgeries on their site. Probably, they are not as diligent as they should be and if any one of us knew their internal procedures, we might not agree with them. And I say this knowing how large corporations generally operate in the United States since I evaluate this in my profession for a living.

 

I have bought over 500 items on eBay (mostly coins) and many others have bought much more. To my recollection, two items were fakes as they came back with "questionable authenticity" from NGC. There was nothing from the image in my opinion to indicate that they were counterfeit. So though i obviously did not like it, I did not consider it eBay's fault. (Neither were from South Africa. One was a 1736 pillar 4R and the other was an 1862 4R from Ecuador.)

 

In the example Geejay provides, sure he should have reported it if he wanted to do so. But in my opinion, anyone who buys a coin like this ungraded from that kind of source is a fool. Any coin like that which sells for much less than its actual value is subject to the caveat "If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is" and if they pay the actual value, they might as well buy it from a known source. Most coins will eventually come up for sale later anyway because few are actually that "rare" except in a narrow, arbitrary and even artificial sense.

 

This is the way I handle this risk. I do not buy expensive coins from questionable sources and for the most part, I would consider a seller from China to be one unless I had a reason to believe or know otherwise. There are two Chinese dealers from whom I have bought several SA coins in the past without having a problem. They sell both graded and raw coins. Some or many of you may know them also but I consider them an exception.

 

The primary complaints I have seen on the NGC Message Boards about eBay are about their listing practices, but not specifically on counterfeits. For example, schill bidding or where a seller intentionally inflates the price by bidding on their own items or having someone else do it. I'm not sure it is illegal but I consider it unethical.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri

Well spotted Georg and thank you.

 

It is interesting to note that when Elias Levine's "The Coinage and Counterfeits of the ZAR" was published in 1974, almost 40 years ago, he states "... there are no forgeries of the silver series that the writer knows of ..." (see page 85 of his book).

 

The reason for this is obvious - the forgery money was "invested" in the big names of the ZAR gold coinage where big profits could be made – even then.

 

Nobody thought that counterfeiting, for example, a ZAR 1894 Florin would be of much use ...

 

Now we know different and so does the forgerers. Time is marching on. Maybe it is time for someone knowledgeable to revise Levine's book - who is up for that task?

 

Pierre

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JohnBenn
i do not believe it is entirely fair or correct to make that type of claim about eBay. Having no first hand experience in reporting a counterfeit coin, I cannot tell you how effective or diligent they are or are not. I agree with the sentiments you express to some degree because the same ones have been expressed by others on the NGC Message Boards, but it is NOT correct to claim or state that eBay completely ignores the selling of forgeries on their site. Probably, they are not as diligent as they should be and if any one of us knew their internal procedures, we might not agree with them. And I say this knowing how large corporations generally operate in the United States since I evaluate this in my profession for a living.

 

This is the type of thing I'm referring to - 373 posts and 100s of reports filed against the forger,yet nothing is done by ebay.

Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum • View topic - Something Fishy with "stamps_fishing" on eBay! FORGERIES!!

 

Then a member of the forum directs the forger to the thread (to try and stop him).He closes he's account and opens another.Still ebay does nothing.

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jwither
This is the type of thing I'm referring to - 373 posts and 100s of reports filed against the forger,yet nothing is done by ebay.

Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum • View topic - Something Fishy with "stamps_fishing" on eBay! FORGERIES!!

 

Then a member of the forum directs the forger to the thread (to try and stop him).He closes he's account and opens another.Still ebay does nothing.

 

I do not know exactly what eBay's monitoring procedures are, only that I am confident they have them because EVERY large firm of their size performs fraud monitoring in the United States to my knowledge. I would also expect that this fraud monitoring should include "pattern recognition". If they are not doing this or not doing it as they should to identify this type of account, then I would agree that they "dropped the ball".

 

Generally though, I think that people have unrealistic and in some instances, absurd expectations. eBay has three constituents they have to satisfy here: the shareholders, the sellers and the buyers and I would say they rank in that order which is EXACTLY what should be expected. My guess (and that is all that it is) is that eBay focuses fraud detection on areas such as copyright infringement or the sale of counterfeit goods such as Couch, Rolex and the like because they can possibly be liable for it. No such liability exists for the sale of counterfeit coins.

 

Coming back to this 1894 2/6 again, from the image it does not even have the appearance of what ZAR normally looks like anyway. I check eBay every day and did not even see this coin in my search results. But if I had, I would assume it is counterfeit because while not impossible, I would not expect a Chiense seller to have a raw "gem BU" 1894 2/6 for sale.

 

On Pierre's point, I'm not sure how prevelant the counterfeiting of SA coins is, though I agree that it is either exclusively or almost exclusively with the more expensive ZAR but I will say what I said here once before on this topic.

 

I do not believe that most SA coins can be profitably counterfeited because there is no volume in them. Sure, a counterfeiter might be able to sell one coin but they are not going to usually sell more than a few for "market price" or any meaningful sum because most collectors of this series know this coin is scarce and in the larger picture, there are not that many of them.

 

The most profitable coins to counterfeit are likely more common coins such as the US Morgan dollar and the Spanish colonial (Mexico) pillar dollar or cobs. Or a coin like the 1907 High Relief US $20 gold which is expensive (over $20,000 in UNC) but relatively common.The first two coins were made by the millions and still exist in large quanties. Each coin sells for much less than Pierre's examples, but thousands or even tens of thousands can be sold, maybe even in circulated grades, because the buyers are likely to be less knowledgeable (even non-collectors) and its appearance is not unusual. I can promise you that selling a thousand counterfeit pillar dollars at $200 or $300 each is far more profitable than selling the one or few 1894 ZAR 2/6 in "MS".

 

So yes, while I know you (and others) find this frustrating, the application of common sense is usually more than enough to avoid buying one.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
This is the type of thing I'm referring to - 373 posts and 100s of reports filed against the forger,yet nothing is done by ebay.

Postage Stamp Chat Board & Stamp Bulletin Board Forum • View topic - Something Fishy with "stamps_fishing" on eBay! FORGERIES!!

 

Then a member of the forum directs the forger to the thread (to try and stop him).He closes he's account and opens another.Still ebay does nothing.

 

I must say, ebay has had enough time now to deal with this problem and as John Benn has rightly said, they do nothing about it.

 

The seller makes every bidder private so that no one can have a chance of warning these bidders.

 

Ebay really doesnt care !!

 

Geejay

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jwither

No, eBay doesn't care. This is a business after all and not something else. eBay will "care" to the extent that it is necessary to maintain the confidence of their buyers and sellers and no more. Expecting anything more is unrealistic.

 

I cannot tell you why eBay has not acted in this instance and yes, everyone who has posted on forums such as this one is aware of these types of issues.

 

The point I was making in my prior posts is that if anyone takes REASONABLE COMMONSENSE precautions, the chances of them buying any counterfeit of significant value where they ALSO suffer a loss is low or even remote. In the example you gave (1894 2/6), what person with any common sense would buy a coin like that simply using the claims from the listing? My answer is that they would not and that if they did, it would be because they would be hoping to buy a coin for much less than its actual value. Someone who is knowledgeable in perpetrating a fraud is going to know this human tendency and exploit this form of greed.

 

Most people who suffer losses like this mostly bring it on themselves. They either think they can beat the odds and win a lottery. Or in even far more instances, they cannot be bothered to learn their field.

 

On another post here, I commented on a thread from the NGC Message Boards discussing the financial performance of coin collectors in the United States. Multiple posts were either lamenting that it was "impossible" to make money in coins or stated that it was virtually so. Aside from the fact that this is empirically false, the main point they were overlookng is that there is no reason to believe that most ever should. But as individuals, most do not because they cannot be bothered to make the effort to improve their chances of doing so. Based upon the posting history here, I see the same thing in South Africa. Its human nature and it exists everywhere.

Edited by jwither

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zarmaniac

Hi Georg

Bit of topic, but have you seen this shocking grading? I know NNC normally grades about 3-5 grades to high, but these are ridiculous?

I wonder if perhaps the seller did not replace the coins with lower grade coins?

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1892- 2 1/2 SHILLING -AU -VERY RARE SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1895- 2 1/2 SHILLING -AU -VERY RARE SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1892- 5 SHILLING -UNCIRCULATED -RARE--A SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1897- SHILLING -UNCIRCULATED -RARE--A SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

Regards

Werner

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Cold Sea

Hi Werner,

 

I have also noticed a banned seller back on e-bay. I suppose jwither is right when he says business is business as far as e-bay is concerned, and as long as they don't face possible lawsuits, they will look the other way. Apologies to geejay for another off-topic remark.

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geejay50
Hi Georg

Bit of topic, but have you seen this shocking grading? I know NNC normally grades about 3-5 grades to high, but these are ridiculous?

I wonder if perhaps the seller did not replace the coins with lower grade coins?

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1892- 2 1/2 SHILLING -AU -VERY RARE SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1895- 2 1/2 SHILLING -AU -VERY RARE SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1892- 5 SHILLING -UNCIRCULATED -RARE--A SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

SOUTH AFRICA ZAR 1897- SHILLING -UNCIRCULATED -RARE--A SOLID INVESTMENT COIN | eBay

Regards

Werner

 

Hi Werner,

 

Yes I fully aggree with you, NNC has made a mockery of grading recently. There was a time when they had at least some worthwhile unproblematic coins amongst their overall overgraded often cleaned coins but of late, they have been almost without exception terrible !!

 

Geejay

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jwither
Hi Werner,

 

I have also noticed a banned seller back on e-bay. I suppose jwither is right when he says business is business as far as e-bay is concerned, and as long as they don't face possible lawsuits, they will look the other way. Apologies to geejay for another off-topic remark.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I necessarily agree with eBay's current practices. Most likely, I would not if I knew them from the inside. The points I was making are these two:

 

As you said, it is a business and expecting eBay (or anyone else) to make more than a minimal effort to look out for the interests of buyers is not realistic at all.

 

Second, anyone who takes reasonable precautions and uses common sense should not suffer more than a relatively nominal loss, just as in the two examples I gave from my own experience.

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