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Pierre_Henri

SA Union Coins of King George VI shine on BidorBuy ...!!

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geejay50
First and foremost a happy 2013 to all collectors!

 

The Mandela bubble is now slowly deflating and this in return has messed up the prices for all coins including the Union series. Once you burn yourself with fire you won't do it again...

 

When I went out on my search to start filling my Union gaps I came across quite a few people who unbeknownst to me where bullshitting me regarding price/rarity etc (a few of the bigger, well known collectors included). I fell for this and still went ahead and bought the coins with my limited knowledge. For example selling a 1923 1S MS62 to me for R12000? How do you as fellow collectors feel about this? Could this tactic of selling at a seriously over inflated price to a fellow collector perhaps be the cause of the downfall of coin prices?. I met some really honest collectors that were more than willing to assist with providing more information and help regarding building a Union collection.

 

... conditional rarities are a real waste of money. That obsessional drive to always upgrade to the highest pop has become really bizarre to me. I play the same game but I can not get it over my heart to keep burning myself time and again. I also believe that this hobby is prone to the more "obsessive compulsive" personalities and it is exactly this that feeds the fire.

 

The future of Union coins seems a tad hopeless to me at this point in time and I have considered a few times to stop collecting and sell my series and to play around with only the Moderns but my obsessive compulsive side keeps lighting the fire each time I try to kill it. Hopefully this might overshadow the other negative possibilities mentioned above regarding future price drops. The obsessive "collector" will always light a second fire?!

 

One last example, the exact two coins were sold on heritage and then on BoB.

 

we should open a new Thread: SA Union Coins of King George VI "that FAILED" on BidorBuy ...!! This will perhaps give us a more transparent picture of what is really happening.

 

Hi SA Coinage,

 

My sympathies to you for your losses. I have had to take some big losses as well and so have we all.I have also made good money especially if I have caught the market in a flat spot or especially with a raw coin of high quality bought relatively cheaply that graded highly.

 

It is sometimes hard to see coins that were fetching high prices at decent grade at Heritage now fetching far lower prices in our local Bob market. That I think has a lot to do with the frenzy that Heritage's skillful marketing creates and we must learn to do our simple homework WITH COOL HEADS before the auction , lobby other collectors and set limits in our bidding based on previous sales. That information has been made available by the hard work done by SA Coinguide this year and we must all be grateful for this sales based data base. It also has given the one on one pressure salesman less room to rip off gullible buyers. To my knowledge this type of SA Coinguide analysis has never been done before in the world.In November 2012 there were 84 paid subscribers to SACoinguide, there are now 182. That is good for the long term future of our market.

 

I think the instability of prices has a lot to do with the speculators in the market who dont hold collections, have no lasting love for the hobby and give no information of value back to nurture this fragile market. They simply follow the money trail and will offload their coins where they can make a profit and create glutts which in turn depresses the price for subsequent sellers. These speculators are especially evident in the Modern Mandela type derivative where everybody knows the coin is not scarce despite blatant lies but there is a soulless boring buy sell differential that drives the sales regardless.The coins themselves have boring perfection and irritatingly high grades thanks to modern machinery (a bit like McDonald Burgers). Oh how I love the roughness and the individuality of the really old say 18th century hammered mint state silver coin- see pic.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4372[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4373[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4374[/ATTACH]

 

There HAS to be a long term future financially for such coins provided we dont pay too much at start.Such a coin was minted in Holland in the year of the start of the French Revolution when Holland started becoming a puppet state of the French and the VOC was near its end due to corruption ('Vergaa'd Onder Corrupsie'). People were executed then en masse in France - there is tangible History here and magic - an academic side which adds to the appeal. Graded numbers - two . Impressive !

 

 

The teaching of History in schools also does not support the old coin market as it is definitely not in the interests of the ANC government to talk about anything other than its own narrow struggle past. So children coming out of schools know nothing about the 150 years of VOC rule, Anglo-Boer War,Creation of Union etc - its no longer fashionable. These are our future and we rely on them reading their way into the past. We can also look at it this way that suppressing this rich Heritage in education may make it more attractive in the long run when the pendulum swings back.

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

58f5a74544fa4_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Logo.jpg.56a27b80827fff7b3878d8f1cc7568fd.jpg

58f5a74549bf8_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Obv.jpg.b31d64cee2b2cd3520c426b0c90f6597.jpg

58f5a7454eb2f_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Rev.jpg.bc8772f3011a10b6a767cd222719c0de.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

SA Coinage,

 

You are correct that there are few if any pure collectors who spend "big money" on coins without considering the financial aspects of their purchases. My opinion is that there are exactly ZERO such people but I cannot prove it because it is not up to me to define other people's motives.

 

What I will say though in this post is that there is a BIG difference between using common sense in determining what to pay for a coin and the comments I see here and many of the prices which have been discussed for any number of SA coins. (The same is true of US coins especially but I do not discuss them that often because this is a SA coin board.) There is no logic in the prices I have analyzed in many of my posts, only pure rationalization and speculation.

 

Let me take an example from the recent Heritage sale since Geejay brought it up. The coin is question is the 1939 NGC MS-63 2/ which sold for $2585. I own this coin in NGC AU-58 and Geejay sold another recently on Bob for less than R1500. Regardless that there are many AU-58 in the census today and RELATIVELY few MS, this price difference is absolutely absurd. My prediction is either a) the buyer of this Heritage coin will lose a substantial proportion of their "investment" at that price. Or, b) whether they do or not it will be a very poor "investment" and that it will badly under perform an AU-58 because the difference in quality between these two grades is not significant at all most of the time.

 

A "real" or "pure" collector will not ignore the financial aspects but I do not see them paying these absurd premiums either. Instead of paying this absurd price for the MS-63, I would think that a real collector would either save the difference or use it to buy coins which are VASTLY superior to both an AU-58 or MS-63. Geejay mentions that Dutch coin. It could be that one which probably costs less than this price difference. It could be others that I have mentioned such as my Spanish colonial pillars. Or, it could be one such as that Byzantine MS (ungraded) coin which I profiled here before which sold for a paltry $700 in the same sale. ANY of these coins would be VASTLY better than an exorbitantly overpriced coin such as the 1939 NGC MS-63 2/ at $2585 because there is NOTHING significant in such a coin except for the label on the holder..

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jwither

Geejay,

 

There are several topics you bring up in your post that I would like to evaluate.

 

First, I do not think most of the bidding "frenzy" originates in a source like Heritage. I agree that this applies to the most prominent and expensive coins but these are not the ones most "investors" (much less collectors) buy because they cannot afford them. I expect that it mostly occurs on BoB and secondly eBay with cheaper or much cheaper coins where most buyers acquire SA coins and ultimately lose their money. Many others are not subject to bidding at all because they occur through private sales, just ones that are still exorbitant based upon the use of false assumptions or buyer ignorance.

 

Second, while the the Coin Guide SA is unquestionably a useful source and presumably the best one available, it is only so in a limited way. The reason for this is that it is only raw data which must be used by the buyer or seller in the context of overall market conditions and other numismatic factors. You use the example of prior sales. I want to emphasize that this is hardly or even mostly sufficient as the many many numerous examples I have provided should illustrate. Someone paying an absurd or exorbitant price simply because the same (or like) coin sold for a similar price is hardly a "savy" buyer or seller.

 

Third, you mention the influence of speculators as an unstable influence on the market. What you do not mention are two additional considerations. First, was anyone complaining about these speculators (that is, "investors") when prices were rising? The obvious answer is NO. And second, what about the assumptions and thinking which did and still does influence if not dominate how coins are bought and sold in your country today? Assumptions like these (some overlap exists between them):

 

First, a completely unrealistic perspective on what SA coins should be worth based upon what collectors and even most "investors" can actually afford to pay given their likely incomes, net worth and liquidity.

 

Second, an absurd and distorted price structure which to my knowledge does not exist in ANY other market and never did.

 

Third, the fiction (shared with the United States) that there is something significant about "conditional" rarities when in actuality there is none.

 

Fourth, the fiction that there is any significance, other than the grade is higher and the coin presumably "better", about coins that grade MS-60 or better versus those in lower grades when in actuality there is none. This is primarily and especially true versus coins in grades of AU-58 and even AU-55 which may actually be higher quality than a lower grade MS. I can positively confirm that this belief does not and never did exist anywhere else, EVER.

 

Fifth, the universal or near universal assumption that SA coins (mostly Union) are actually scarcer, especially as a generic MS or even specific MS grades, than they almost certainly really are in many if not most instances.

 

These are the five 'big" assumptions that seem to underlie the SA coin market today to which I could probably add a few others of lesser importance. I also believe that some of these assumptions were purportedly taken from the United States whether they actually applied or did not. I say this because though some of them do or may partially, the distiction between South Africa and the United States is that as absurd as I find the pricing of a vast number of US coins, the fact of the matter is that, even as a relatively illiquid market, it is vastly more liquid than the one in SA or anywhere else. It is far more liquid because there are usually many more (potential) buyers near the current price.

 

This last comment I make leads me to your last point. Under stable economic conditions (hardly a given), yes I agree that the coin you just profiled should retain its current value. But like the vast majority of coins, I do not think much of its "investment" prospects though I admit this comment is made without knowing anything about Dutch coin collecting. I make this comment in the context of European coins from this period and even earlier periods generically. To my knowledge, there is no "investment" market for most such coins whether from the Netherlands if not practically every other European country.

Edited by jwither

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jwither

There are three other recent sales to comment on, one on BoB and two on eBay.

 

Today, NCCE sold another 1928 NGC MS-66 BN farthing but this time for $427 which is slightly more than DOUBLE the prior ones in my last post. So how much is this coin really "worth"? Someone tell me because I consider chasing these grades a fool's game, even aside from their dubious numismatic merits, given the frequently wildly unpredictable prices from one sale to the next..

 

The second coin is a 1932 NGC MS-67 BN farthing which sold for $1527. Checking recent prices from the Heritage NYINC sale, BoB and even eBay, I can safely state that I can easily find dozens if not hundreds of SA coins which are better "investments" than this coin at this price.

 

Lastly, I noticed that Pierre sold a 1938 NGC XF-40 2/ for a paltry R1000 or about $110 USD. I recall seeing only one coin better, an NGC XF-45 which NEN sold for $495 in 2009 and which they acquired from the September 2008 DNW sale. Yes, this grade is an average one and the coin (from the image) is not particularly appealing (though not that bad either). But once again, most collectors of Union do not have this coin at all. I do not own it and never have.

 

The next rhetorical question I have is this, is there something wrong with these prices or what?

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Hi Guys ,

 

Union coins still seem to attract interest especially in Finest known grade. I am sure some of you noted the following sale for a 1931 Pf66Cameo Florin R68,500.(11 bidders) Please see link

Graded Coins - 1931 SA Union 2 Shilling NGC PF66 Cameo # Mintage: 62 Only # Hern's Price R65 000 # FUN on FRIDAY # was sold for R68,500.00 on 1 Feb at 15:01 by EWAAN Galleries in Johannesburg (ID:87454648)

 

Geejay

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jwither

Geejay,

 

There are a few (very few) Union coins at least that are now generating strong interest. I believe ZAR is somewhat better but I do not know how much because I pay much less attention to them. But even here, the prices of "collector" coins seem to have collapsed from what I have seen in recent Heritage auctions. I can provide examples if necessary.

 

On the Union side, several other 1931 proofs also closed recently for strong prices. The shilling in PR-65 sold for R88,000 which makes no sense given that this coin is smaller, in a lower grade and not a cameo while the 2/ is a 66 CAM. Since I do not consider the 1931 proof set more desirable than any of the other KGV except for the 1923 and maybe the 1936, I think these coins are either overpriced or vastly overpriced.

 

The 1929 6D in MS-63 sold for R15500 and a 1944 1D in MS-63BN has a current bid of almost R5000. I'm not interested in either coin but both are very scarce and I consider the prices relatively strong but still reasonable.

 

Most of remainder I have tracked are either weak, very weak or absolutely pitiful. Some are so pitiful that their prices somewhat surprise me (a confirmed "pessimist") given that I do not see economic conditions as being that bad by my standards. Maybe they are worse in SA than I think but regardless, globally I expect them to ultimately get much worse (yes, than 2008) and this just shows how little foreign demand there is for these coins if others like me have no interest even at these lower levels. Here are some examples:

 

A 1926 1D NGC MS-63 sold for R3000. The census is much higher now than a few years ago but not absolutely large. I expect that at the peak a few years ago, this coin would probably sell for at least three times this price if not more or a lot more. I recall seeing a 1926 1/2D MS-62 sell on eBay for over $2000 a few years ago and the scarcity does not differ that greatly between the two. I believe a 1928 1D MS-62 sold for somewhat but not that much more recently, like in the vicinity of R5500. I sold an MS-63 for $800 in 2009.

 

A 1939 1d NGC MS-64 RB sold for R1800. I sold one like it (and maybe even the same coin) for $450 in early 2011.

 

A 1948 2/ PCGS MS-63 sold for just under R3000. I sold an NGC in the same grade for $500 in early 2011.

 

Following up on my prior posts above on the 1943 1/, an MS-64 just sold for a patry R916 or about $100. This versus $1035 for the MS-65 which is a preposterous price difference. I sold TWO MS-64 in 2010 for $300 each. And by using the word paltry, it is not because I think this price is too low today. I do not believe it deserves a higher one. Only that the MS-65 price is absurd and that I was correct to get rid of the two I owned.

 

A 1925 NGC XF-45 2/6 sold for about R700 (R732 I believe) or about $80. I would have to check, but this looks like the exact coin I sold for over $800 in 2006 or 2007 on eBay.

 

I believe that you mentioned selling a 1944 NGC XF-40 1/ a few years ago for about $1500. Sometime in the last year, I believe one sold for about R3500, an absolutely pathetic price for such a scarce coin..

 

Still many other coins failed to sell at all and the opening prices were not even that high either. One such example was the 1927 1/ NGC XF-45. I think this particular coin is overgraded (I see too much wear on the reverse for my liking) but the coin appears to have good eye appeal and as I have stated before, it's not like most collectors have a better example. Most do not own it at all..

 

Overall since I completed selling most of my better South Africa (almost all Union) coins in early 2011, most have lost value or a lot of value. It has only been the much better ones which have held or increased from the prices I obtained. A few examples of these are 1931 6D NGC PR-66, 1929 6D NGC MS-64 and 1932 NGC 1D MS-63 BN. But even here, I suspect that this is still only mostly true because I was selling from outside of SA, did not sell them on Heritage or a similar source and sold them too low in private sales when I should have sold at least some of them through open bidding.

Edited by jwither

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EWAAN Galleries

I think all the 1931's sold at bargains if compare to other union and zar coins listed on bob....

 

See this:

 

Graded Coins - *#* 1933 HALF CROWN NGC SLABBED XF 40 *#* for sale in Johannesburg (ID:90163701)

 

Graded Coins - *#* 1892 FIVE SHILLING DOUBLE SHAFT NGC SLABBED AU 50 *#* for sale in Johannesburg (ID:90168032)

 

Now you be the judge!

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SA COINAGE

1931 Proof Tickey

 

.......

Edited by SA COINAGE

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jwither
I think all the 1931's sold at bargains if compare to other union and zar coins listed on bob....

 

See this:

 

Graded Coins - *#* 1933 HALF CROWN NGC SLABBED XF 40 *#* for sale in Johannesburg (ID:90163701)

 

Graded Coins - *#* 1892 FIVE SHILLING DOUBLE SHAFT NGC SLABBED AU 50 *#* for sale in Johannesburg (ID:90168032)

 

Now you be the judge!

 

The comparison you are attempting to make is not valid at all and I consider it a form of rationalization.

 

The reason it is not valid is because the prices you are referencing are simply "wish list" prices based upon the Hern catalog, at least for the 1933 2/6 which has been listed on BoB without sellling over and over again. As I have pointed out many times, the prices in Hern are usually not based on anything at all for the more expensive coins, except by coincidence.

 

And by coincidence, what I mean is that it is likely that the buyer only pays that amount because it is printed in the catalog; not that the catalog actually listed the value because the coin sold for this price first. I am sure that if the publisher of the catalog is reading this comment (or my prior ones), that they, the dealers who still use these fictional prices and the sellers on BoB who also still use it do not like them because they can no longer overcharge buyers like they could before. Well, too bad because the evidence for my claim is far more supported than the opposite.

 

Given that you sold a 1933 2/6 in PCGS AU-55 for all of R15500 a few months ago, why would you compare the prices on the 1931 proofs you sold to an ask price (which is pure fantasy) instead of the real one in your prior listing? Listed at R1 in a no reserve auction like your coin, an XF would probably actually sell for at most R5000 today (versus this R45000 ask price), maybe even less. Do you see what I mean? That makes no sense at all.

 

I am not trying to pick on you but the comparison you just made is not atypical of what I have seen here in the past. Almost everyone seems to use an argument, no matter how weak it is, to try to support the idea that prices are reasonable or should be higher even when the opposite is true. In this instance, only ACTUAL sales prices are valid and based upon what these coins have ACTUALLY sold for, I do not see how you or anyone else could conclude that the 1931 proofs are not overpriced versus at least a circulated 1933 2/6 and by extension, every or practically every other coin like it.

 

Using a common sense evaluation of each coin's merits in terms scarcity, grade and relative desirability, far from being bargains even in a relative sense, the 1931 proofs either are or are among the most overpriced Union coins at this time and have been since I started collecting Union in 1998. The only others that compete for this dubious distinction in my opinion are other coins that have also been historically over rated. These include the 1923 proof set (all coins in the set), the 1949 proof 1/, the 1959 5/ and a few others such as the 1950 proof 2/ and 2/6.

 

In the examples that I used in my last post, some of them I think are relative bargains, but primarily because they now sell for so much less than they did at their peak a year or more ago. I do not know how many others agree with this comment or not, but I suspect that no one comments on it because in practically everyone's opinion, low or lower prices are "bad" news.

 

No, the actual bad news is paying more or an absurd price for a coin in the past that could have been bought for less later; buying a coin at an absurd price when prices were rising and then losing value later like so many have found to their detriment. This is a perfect example of the herding impulse in human behaviour which most follow no matter what market anyone wants to bring up. It is the primary reason why most lose money over and over again.

Edited by jwither

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EWAAN Galleries
Would you be willing to reveal what the 1931 Proof 3d sold for?

 

 

Im sure many are dying to know what it sold for. Firstly what proof have you got that the tickey has been sold? It could still be in my collection. Secondly if has been sold I would need to ask the buyer if I can post on the forum the price he paid. ;)

 

no further comments.....

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EWAAN Galleries
The comparison you are attempting to make is not valid at all and I consider it a form of rationalization.

 

The reason it is not valid is because the prices you are referencing are simply "wish list" prices based upon the Hern catalog, at least for the 1933 2/6 which has been listed on BoB without sellling over and over again. As I have pointed out many times, the prices in Hern are usually not based on anything at all for the more expensive coins, except by coincidence.

 

And by coincidence, what I mean is that it is likely that the buyer only pays that amount because it is printed in the catalog; not that the catalog actually listed the value because the coin sold for this price first. I am sure that if the publisher of the catalog is reading this comment (or my prior ones), that they, the dealers who still use these fictional prices and the sellers on BoB who also still use it do not like them because they can no longer overcharge buyers like they could before. Well, too bad because the evidence for my claim is far more supported than the opposite.

 

Given that you sold a 1933 2/6 in PCGS AU-55 for all of R15500 a few months ago, why would you compare the prices on the 1931 proofs you sold to an ask price (which is pure fantasy) instead of the real one in your prior listing? Listed at R1 in a no reserve auction like your coin, an XF would probably actually sell for at most R5000 today (versus this R45000 ask price), maybe even less. Do you see what I mean? That makes no sense at all.

 

I am not trying to pick on you but the comparison you just made is not atypical of what I have seen here in the past. Almost everyone seems to use an argument, no matter how weak it is, to try to support the idea that prices are reasonable or should be higher even when the opposite is true. In this instance, only ACTUAL sales prices are valid and based upon what these coins have ACTUALLY sold for, I do not see how you or anyone else could conclude that the 1931 proofs are not overpriced versus at least a circulated 1933 2/6 and by extension, every or practically every other coin like it.

 

Using a common sense evaluation of each coin's merits in terms scarcity, grade and relative desirability, far from being bargains even in a relative sense, the 1931 proofs either are or are among the most overpriced Union coins at this time and have been since I started collecting Union in 1998. The only others that compete for this dubious distinction in my opinion are other coins that have also been historically over rated. These include the 1923 proof set (all coins in the set), the 1949 proof 1/, the 1959 5/ and a few others such as the 1950 proof 2/ and 2/6.

 

In the examples that I used in my last post, some of them I think are relative bargains, but primarily because they now sell for so much less than they did at their peak a year or more ago. I do not know how many others agree with this comment or not, but I suspect that no one comments on it because in practically everyone's opinion, low or lower prices are "bad" news.

 

No, the actual bad news is paying more or an absurd price for a coin in the past that could have been bought for less later; buying a coin at an absurd price when prices were rising and then losing value later like so many have found to their detriment. This is a perfect example of the herding impulse in human behaviour which most follow no matter what market anyone wants to bring up. It is the primary reason why most lose money over and over again.

 

 

Unfortunately we have no control over R1 auctions - lets say if you had listed the 1931 shilling and it sold for a high price -would you then say the buyer overpaid for the coin? - I don't think so!

 

We list items at R1 starts and let the bidders decide what coin sells for (completely out of our control)

 

At least we give bidders a fair chance to bid with NO DISCRETE LISTINGS on any of our R1 start auctions (Unlike other sellers)

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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jwither

To answer your last question, my answer is yes. I would consider the coin overpriced if I sold (at least) the 1931 proof 1/ at this price because whether the coin is mine or someone else's is irrelevant. A coin is either RELATIVELLY overpriced or it is not and this is based upon its merits as a collectible as MOST collectors see it, not me or you specifically.

 

If you or anyone else do not believe this claim or find it hard to believe, then consider that while I was selling most of my SA coins (including all of the better ones), I was simultaneously making the same kinds of comments I am making now on this forum. I sold most of my coins from late 2009 to early 2011 and started posting here in August 2009. And aside from this, I use(d) the same user name on this forum that I use on eBay as a seller, so its not like I was trying to deceive anyone by speaking out of both sides of my mouth. Anyone who bought from me knew that I had the opinions I have expressed here or at least had the opportunity to know. In no instance did I EVER claim that any price I asked for or received represented a reasonable or compelling value while at the same "bad mouthing" the coin here or to anyone in private.

 

Also, I was not criticizing your auction format. To be clear, I have never seen ANY of your auctions where I or anyone else could say that you have attempted to overcharge a prospective buyer. I see many ask prices such as the examples you used which are pure fantasy but this is not true of your auctions.

 

Nevertheless, regardless of the fact that these coins sold at these prices and therefore are/were technically worth these amounts, yes they are still overpriced. The fact that you sold these coins in a no reserve auction format indicates that this was its true value at the time the sale concluded. But then, the same could be said of any number of other coins which sold both recently and in the past for prices that I consider excessive or absurd and anyone can see that they were also overpriced because subsequent prices have crashed from prior levels.

 

As I have attempted to explain on many occassions, there is no absolute value. And since there is not, a coin (or anything else) can only be compared to other coins (or in limited instances, also other items from other collectible fields) based upon its scarcity, quality and desirability.

 

People's opinions on the factors to use and the weight to apply to each of them will vary. But I can tell you that in this instance, if a collector of Union, South African coins generally or even collectors generally were offerred the opportunity to acquire this 1931 1/ versus any other number of coins that I could mention as alternatives, the alternatives would be selected over this coin by a landslide.

 

Both here and the NGC Message Boards, I have used many such examples in the past. On the NGC Message Boards particularly, some have objected to this methodology and tried to claim it has no merit. While it is of course subjective, i consider such claims to be completely spurrious. Collectors and yes "investors" (subconciously at least) make these choices all the time.

 

The fact of the matter is that if the criteria I am using is not valid, then by extension no coin (or anything else for that matter) is, was or can ever be overpriced. A coin will always be "fairly" valued regardless of how absurdly high or low it sells for at any point in time. This is EXACTLY the logic (if it can even be called that) which most here apparently try to use to justify any number of absurd prices which I have criticized here on numerous occassions.

 

In the instance of the 1931 proofs, here are the recent facts. First, the different denominations you sold were for prices which varied much more widely than is representative by each coin's merits.

 

Second, ALL of these coins sold for vastly more than the 1936 proofs you also recently sold when in actuality, the numismatic merits of the two dates are essentially identical. Or are you (or anyone else) going to try to claim that the full 1936 set you bought from Heritage and resold as individual lots on BoB should be worth about the same or even less than this one 1931 NGC PR-65 1/? If so, that idea is plain crazy.

 

I do not know how much the other KGV proof dates would sell for now aside from the 1931 and 1936. But from the recent sales available to me, I'm confident that the 1934 would sell for less and I think it's also likely that some or even many other dates would also. These coins are both scarcer and more desirable than the 1931.

 

As I have pointed out before, the only real explanation for the inflated opinion of the 1931 proof set is first, it has always sold for a premium given its scarcity. (This dating back to at least 1950.) And second, it has probably sold for more because buyers have considered it "better" because the 1931 silver circulation strikes are essentially impossible to buy, aside from the 6d in low grades. Since a proof is not a substitute for a business strike, there is no logic to the current or prior price structure that I can see. If anyone else can come up with one, I am just dying to hear it.

 

As to how this impact the future prices of these coins, I do not know. My opinion is that first, this set (the 1931) will continue to carry a premium because of what I just described, regardless of how illogical it is in actuality. But second, that for the 1931 1/ at least, that at this price it is such a poor value that the current owner is virtually assured of either losing a lot of money upon resale or at minimum doing far worse with it economically than they could have with other coins.

 

Perhaps the buyer does not care but given the price paid, I doubt it. Most likely, if the buyer is reading this post, they probably both do not like these comments and do not want to hear it. The correct reply to this objection is that logic is logic whether it is pleasant or not. If anyone wants to make a case that somehow it is a reasonable or great value, I'm all ears to hear it. I do not think anyone can do so by a long shot.

Edited by jwither

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EWAAN Galleries

What a joke!

 

Hi All

 

Today was just one of the funniest days. I went into Scoin shop in Brooklyn Mall. Scoin are registered SAAND dealers.

 

What caught my eye was a 1892 5 Shilling Single Shaft NGC graded XF45 displayed in the shop window. We all know that the value of this coin is estimated at between R2000 - R3000 maximum.

 

They have the coin marked at R85 500-00. :rolleyes:

 

At that price you could probably buy the finest known in UNC.....

 

Now with these kind of mark ups should SAAND not do something about this as they claim to have a code of conduct. I don't think such a coin will ever sell at this price ever and if does then a complete rip off.

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jwither

Yes, I agree with you. The price is a complete farce and no, I do not believe it will sell at that price ever in today's purchasing power..

 

Speaking of an organization like SAAND, I'm not sure what purpose organizations like this serve anymore. And in saying this, I have the same opinion of the US Professional Numismatics Guild (PNG) and its internatIonal equivalent, the International Association of Professional Numismatists (IAPN). I have not read any of these codes of conduct and since I do not buy from or even need to deal with its membership, the whole subject is irrelevant to me.

 

Years ago, membership in these organizations was meant to instill confidence in the buyer. Its the same reason most US dealers were members of the ANA and the PNG was just a more exclusive club. Today, most buyers do not need dealers at all. In some and usually very limited instances, they are still useful but it depends upon what you are collecting and how much money you have to "invest".

 

In the US, collectors and "investors" can easily find almost any US coin. The main benefit US dealers provide is in finding coins which are properly graded or are superior for the grade since most US coins are so common. Or, sometimes having a dealer represent you at public auction to inspect the coin and possibly recommend a bidding strategy can also be useful. Dealers such as Mark Feld (a former NGC grader and frequent contributor on the NGC Message Boards) provide this service and at a very small mark up to their cost which they make compensate for with volume.

 

Others also function as an "investment" adviser. Scott Travers is an example. He is a recognized collector advocate who is no longer a dealer but is paid on commission to find coins and has also published many books and articles. Others such as Legend Numismatics (the joint buyer of the 1794 PCGS SP-66 dollar) both sell coins and provide advice.

 

With South African coins or the other series I collect, I do not see that many dealers are in a position to help buyers find coins they cannot on their own most of the time. The only exception to this would be that they might occasionally know who the owner is of a particular coin and be able to approach them on behalf of a prospective purchaser for coins that are not officially for sale. For example, if I ever wanted to buy the 1729 pattern "crowned M" (Madrid) pillar eight reales, I would contact auction firm Calico or Heritage. They might know and have a professional relationship with the current owner.

 

Otherwise, I consider buying from them a waste of time outside of venues like BoB or eBay. My SA collection before I sold most of it and that of many other collectors is/was better or much better than what practically any dealer has in stock at any given time, especially since I suspect that many of the more expensive ungraded coins (which is most from my observations) in their inventory are actually NGC "details" coins that should be avoided like the plague at the absurd ask prices I have seen. The same applies to dealers who carry the other coins I collect.

Edited by jwither

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jwither

I am far too big of an optimist. Just above, I speculated that a 1933 2/6 in EF/XF would sell for at most R5000. Well, the verdict is now in as an NGC AU-50 just sold for this price. If resold, this coin could sell for more (or less) given the unpredictability of prices from one sale to the next, But since this last price is what this coin is now "worth" (as the perpetual optimists never fail to claim when prices are exorbitant), the XF-40 in the link above with an ask price of R45,000 is probably worth in the range of R3000 to R4000, regardless of what the Hern catalog includes.

 

These prices would be quite a bit less than the implied price of an XF 1925 2/ based upon the USD $440 I paid for the PCGS VF-25 late last year, but not out of line with others such as the 1927 NGC XF-45 1/ which sold on eBay last month for $201 or the 1925 2/6 and 1928 1/ in the same grade which both sold for less than $100 each. The 1925 2/ in the same grade should sell for somewhat more than a 1933 2/6, but not that much more.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri
I am far too big of an optimist. Just above, I speculated that a 1933 2/6 in EF/XF would sell for at most R5000. Well, the verdict is now in as an NGC AU-50 just sold for this price. If resold, this coin could sell for more (or less) given the unpredictability of prices from one sale to the next, But since this last price is what this coin is now "worth" (as the perpetual optimists never fail to claim when prices are exorbitant), the XF-40 in the link above with an ask price of R45,000 is probably worth in the range of R3000 to R4000, regardless of what the Hern catalog includes.

 

These prices would be quite a bit less than the implied price of an XF 1925 2/ based upon the USD $440 I paid for the PCGS VF-25 late last year, but not out of line with others such as the 1927 NGC XF-45 1/ which sold on eBay last month for $201 or the 1925 2/6 and 1928 1/ in the same grade which both sold for less than $100 each. The 1925 2/ in the same grade should sell for somewhat more than a 1933 2/6, but not that much more.

I was the under-bidder on the 1933 AU50 2/6- and only saw the listing Friday night shortly before it closed and sold for R5005.00. The 1933 2/6- is not a scarce coin in lower grades but in AU they are really scarce. I can really kick myself as my own specimen is only a VF30.

 

The whole collectors market is in the doldrums at the moment but as I have stated so many times before, for eagle eyed collectors this is the BEST of times. "Investors" are loosing all the way at the moment but true collectors (buyers) have seldom seen more happy times.

As both a collector and a dealer I am currently caught between a rock and a hard place - maybe I should call myself the Bipolar Numismatist? LOL.

 

Pierre

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jwither

I agree with you. But how many others who either post here or are reading these comments do you think have the same opinion? My answer is a distinct minority because the collectible aspects are either secondary to them or not a consideration at all.

 

As I explained in one recent post, there are only two logical root causes for the current price weakness. The first is one that you and a few others have provided before, that poor economic conditions in your country have reduced the financial capacity of buyers to pay prior prices. Well, if this is true, then this means two things. First, since this does not keep foreign buyers from paying the prior prices, it means that the foreign demand at the margin is so weak that SA "investors" can (for all practical purposes) forget about them driving prices higher later or else they would provide price support now. The second is that the financial profile of the SA "investor" is one primarily of limited means because both current and prior prices for most SA coins are trivial for any person with any resources to mention.

 

The second is the one I provided in my opening paragraph and which is related to the culture of collecting in your country. For a market where the financial aspects are so important, outside of the more expensive ZAR and handful of the others, the prices of most SA coins might seem either low or very low. Of course, the only other market that I see as placing the same emphasis as yours is the United States. Many Australian coins, some from Russia and some modern Chinese coins are also expensive or very expensive, but I'm not sure they are representative of those markets.

 

Otherwise, the truth of the matter is that everywhere else you look, the prices of most coins are not that high at all, even for very scarce items that are easily as scarce or even scarcer as practically any South African coin. This is only logical because coins are first and foremost a hobby and most hobbyists either cannot or will not spend the ridiculous prices which exist in the US or which apparently a disproportionate number of those in SA apparently believe that SA coins should be worth.

 

Since I first came into contact with SA collectors, the perception I have is that a consensus exists that SA coin prices are going to resemble those in the US, but just at somewhat lower levels. Sure, it is not impossible but it isn't likely either. The US is not a normal market but an aberration. It is all of the other markets which are normal price wise and from a value standpoint, US coins are in deep outer space and defy common sense which is why I do not buy them.

 

To the extent that SA prices do end up resembling those from the US, I would expect that it will be far more true of ZAR than Union and RSA. They are more expensive now and I expect them to stay that way. I have written more about Union in my posts because it is my area of focus, but I suspect there are a lot more real collectors of ZAR. This might sound counter intuitive (in some respects) because the prices are higher or much higher but that is precisely my point. The prices are higher because there are more real collectors who are dedicated to the series and actually care about real collecting, not just how much of a return they can get on their "investment".

 

To conclude this post, I will say the same thing I have said before. If SA numismatics is ever going to develop the way I presume real collectors should prefer, a disproportionate number of coins cannot be out of reach to most buyers. This is exactly what would happen if the expectations which seem to exist in your country come true. Additionally, for the hopes of "investors" to come to pass, quality coins such as scarcer AU should sell for more and a lot more if MS grades are going to increase in price and stay there. If there isn't a meaningful collector base who want these and even some lower circulated grades badly enough, what reason is there to believe that a larger number are going to pay much higher prices for "investment" coins?

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Pierre_Henri
To conclude this post, I will say the same thing I have said before. If SA numismatics is ever going to develop the way I presume real collectors should prefer, a disproportionate number of coins cannot be out of reach to most buyers. This is exactly what would happen if the expectations which seem to exist in your country come true. Additionally, for the hopes of "investors" to come to pass, quality coins such as scarcer AU should sell for more and a lot more if MS grades are going to increase in price and stay there. If there isn't a meaningful collector base who want these and even some lower circulated grades badly enough, what reason is there to believe that a larger number are going to pay much higher prices for "investment" coins?

 

As I do all my buying and selling (or 99% of it) on BidorBuy, I am oblivious to the needs, passions and deep or shallow pockets of "other" collectors out there of the series I collect (Union 1923 to 1952).

 

A while ago, I had a discussion with John Mckensie, whose father had Don's Coins next to the Jaffes’s City Coins for decades in Tulbagh Square in Cape Town.

 

I asked him how many Union collectors there were in Cape Town in the 1970s (the heyday of those dealers then) and he said around 200 or so. Remember that was way before the World Wide Web.

200 serious coin collectors in Cape Town 30 to 40 years ago?

 

Today I count my BidorBuy clients buying and selling Union coins (even ZAR included) in Cape Town at say 20 or so.

 

So the number of collectors has fallen from 200 to 20.... OR do we only meet 10% of them on BoB - the rest do not "do" internet collecting? Or if they do, use other websites that I strongly would think is not the case?

 

I really do not know what to think – do the big coin dealers in SA with physical premises corner the other 90% of the market or did the number of collectors just shrink with a huge percentage in a few decades time?

Pierre

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jwither

I do not know the answer to your question but I appreciate that you provide the answers that you do because I learn something from many of them. I wish others who could likewise also would but almost no one ever does so.

 

The answer to this question at least partly depends upon the definition of "serious collector". If the definition is simply a function of how much money someone spends, then there are probably more today than there were in the 1970's or 1980's, even accounting for price changes. On the other hand, if the definition is defined as the number of collectors who really are interested in collecting and not just whether they can make a windfall by buying and selling them as "widgets", then I suspect that there could be fewer or far fewer as your anecdotal evidence indicates. And by real collecting, I am talking about someone who also wants to complete their sets and is actually interested in learning more about the coins. As I have written many times, If the comments I have seen on this board are representative of how most coin buyers think in SA, then I do not see that there is much interest in real collecting at all.

 

As an outsider and someone who has limited contact with your collecting community, the best evidence to me is the apparent lack of interest in circulated coins. I presume that SA collectors historically preferred better coins and by this, I mean from a standpoint of real quality and not just what the label on the slab states. But in other markets where collecting either is or seems to be popular, this preference does not mean that most collectors who cannot afford the better coins do not still collect those which are not as good.

 

I see essentially no evidence of this at all because if this were true, the prices of circulated coins should be somewhat or even a lot higher. Or if this assumption is incorrect, then the most logical conclusion is that the potential buyers, most cannot afford even these coins. I say "most" because there is also the possibility that, since prices are so much higher than they were ten years ago, that "oldtimers" still want these coins but refuse to pay the current prices. This, even though they are lower or much lower than a year or two ago, because they were used to paying so much less before.

 

Probably it is some of both but much more of the former than the latter. I mean, of all the examples that I have used, is someone going to try to tell me that there are not more collectors who do not need coins like the 1927 and 1928 1/ in XF-45 for their collections? I find that impossible to believe. Or, if many already own them, then these coins are actually much more common than the concensus claims.

 

No, the conclusion that I draw is that this type of coin is no longer "good enough" and that most collectors (the overwhelming majority) do not want them. Many or most do not really want them, the balance of collectors cannot afford them while "investors" would rather buy a ridiculously overpriced graded MS, regardless of how crummy the coin actually looks, because it is (supposedly) a better "investment". Unlike the United States, apparently most South African collectors do not care about completing their sets. What other explanation is there?

 

In the United States, "key dates' from the series that I call "perenial collector favorites" sell for hundreds of dollars even in lowly circulated grades like G-4 or AG-3 and thousands of dollars in higher circulated condition. Coins such as the 1877 Indian Head cent, 1909-S VDB and 1914-D Lincoln cents, 1926-S Buffalo nickel, 1916-D Mercury dime, 1901-S Barber quarter, 1916 Liberty Standing quarter, 1921 Walking Liberty half dollar and many Morgan dollars (e.g., 1889-CC and 1893-S). None of these coins are remotely scarce yet they still sell for more or a lot more than practically any Union coin and most ZAR. Though prices are lower or much lower, widespread demand apparently exists in markets such as the UK and for the Spanish colonial coinage I collect.

 

Regardless of what the likely answer may be, the lack of interest in these coins is "bearish: from the standpoint of those who want higher prices which seems to be practically almost everyone who posts here. I am not aware of one single market where the prices of "conditional rarities" (whether in slabs or not) and MS generically sell for the astronomical prices SA "investors" desire while the balance of the other coins sell for piddling or insignificant amounts. Absent price bubbles which are only temporary, I consider the chances of that happening on any sustained basis to be extremely remote as evidenced by what has happened to most SA coin prices in the last year or two.

 

As for the dealers, I often wonder how the Brick & Mortar (B&M) shops can stay in business. In the US, a post on the PCGS Coin Forum claimed that the US dealer directory recently listed 8000. That seems too high to me though presumably, it includes those without a physical presense and maybe even part time dealers. Given the costs of running a traditional coin shop and the increased competition made possible by the internet, I'm surprised that most of those that currently still exist manage to survive, however many it may be.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri
I do not know the answer to your question but I appreciate that you provide the answers that you do because I learn something from many of them. I wish others who could likewise also would but almost no one ever does so.

 

I think the general profile of the average coin collector in South Africa have changed tremendously since the 1970s.

 

In those days, the average collector was probably a late-middle aged white male (50 to 60) or older, whereas the average age today would be 35 (probably Indian or White but could be any race) I guess.

 

Why? - three reasons ...

 

The one is the so-called Mandela coin frenzy that brought "everyone" into the game - from "94 year old Ouma Sannie from Sannieshof old-age home" to "19 year old Kortbroek from Kakamas". It seems like "everyone" jumped onto the coin bandwagon since 1994?

 

The second reason is the Internet phenomena that must have brought in thousands of new collectors to a hobby that was rather "closed" to a relative few in previous decades. The generation X included.

 

The third reason is the opening up of our country since 1994 that has seen previously disadvantaged (and younger) people now entering the main stream economy and the hobbies (like coin collecting) that goes with it.

 

Maybe a fourth reason could be overseas people that "like" the country more since 1994? How many foreign collectors would have bought a 1965 Van Riebeeck Afrikaans R1 coin then vs. a more modern Nelson Mandela R5 coin now?

 

Whatever the reason(s), I am sure that the average age of collectors in this country has dropped in the past decade(s) vs. MOST international countries where the average age of a coin collector just seems to go up and up (getting older and older)

 

So in THAT sense we South Africans actually have something to be VERY happy about.

 

Pierre

 

BTW - if anyone wants a Justin Bieber autograph for their collection do NOT contact me - I am to old for that sh*t...

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Patricia_Gert

Good day all,

 

Ok, I confess, I am one of the guilty ones ;-( I regularly read the forum but rarely post, mostly due to time constraints…

 

On jwither's comment:

 

Probably it is some of both but much more of the former than the latter. I mean, of all the examples that I have used, is someone going to try to tell me that there are not more collectors who do not need coins like the 1927 and 1928 1/ in XF-45 for their collections? I find that impossible to believe. Or, if many already own them, then these coins are actually much more common than the concensus claims.

 

Beside the world economic state and the fact that collectors will mostly use "spare cash" (which are limited) for buying coins , I think there are another reason for this: Union collectors are currently spoiled for choice. Every week many brilliant unc Union coins are offered and sold on Bidorbuy, with many (most?) of these selling for less than R1000, or even less than R500. These are mostly the more common dates, but for anybody building a collection this is a great opportunity at acquiring these coins at affordable prices. Most new collectors will rather pay R500 for a MS64 union coin then pay R1000 for a XF45 union coin simply because of an incomplete frame of reference, i.e. perfect knowledge of scarcity and relative value does (mostly) not exist in the SA coin market. This is more true of the newer collectors.

 

Another factor in my opinion: the census figures are mostly far from complete and catalogue values vs what coins sell for in an open market is extremely confusing, so it is very difficult for newer collectors to figure out what is actually scarce and not just made out be scarce by the catalogues etc. (just search for "scarce" on the coins and note section on Bidorbuy and you should see what I mean…).

 

In my opinion, most numismatic buying decisions is based on assumptions of scarcity, current value and potential future value. Which in instances can lead to large price variations on the same or very similar items.

 

Kind regards

Gert

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jwither

Pierre,

 

I agree with the points you make in a generalized sense. I think the explosion in ZAR prices can partly be attributed to the end of apartheid by removing the stigma of SA coins with foreign collectors. On the other hand, I have no evidence of it, but I do not see that this has happened for Union (or RSA) coins at all. For Union, I think it probably happened first because the increase in ZAR prices and the preference for TPG conditioned "investors" in your country to get used to paying more and second, at least partly from the research Alex has published.

 

But what I just described has little bearing on how willing those outside of SA are going to pay for these coins except selectively. The reason for this is if you look at how SA coins are priced today, the price structure (even with the absurdities I have described elsewhere) resembles that of the US more than anywhere else. Just this week, I replied to a post on the NGC Message Boards about the pricing and (supposed) rarity within one US series (special designation strike "full step" and "conditional rarity" Jefferson Nickels). The link is below.

 

9 Years of Value Difference---- - Collectors Society Message Boards

 

As I described in this post, almost no non-US collector collects coins in this manner (I have never heard of even one) or is going to pay what can only be called an absolutely absurd and exorbitant price for what is in actuality an extremely common coin but collected as 'rare' by applying narrow and in my opinion, completely arbitrary standards of rarity. Generic TPG grading is not as bad, but the same principle applies which is the primary reason why I do not believe the lopsided majority of collectors outside of SA are going to pay many of the current prices for Union or ZAR now, much less the much higher prices which apparently many or most in your country think should occur. To the extent that it does, it's likely to be almost exclusively South African expats and a few from the US who I believe buy a disproportionate number of TPG non-US coins regardless of origin.

 

This does not necessarily mean that foreign collectors will not pay the far more modest prices for the circulated examples I just used, but I am not aware of any evidence that they do in any quantity. On the post 1994 coins, I am sure that some foreign buyers also acquire these coins for the reason you state (especially one with Mandela's portrait), but I do not see that they will pay any substantial premium for it. The mania to which you refer, I would be amazed if it was not entirely of local origin. A lot more than before? Probably, but not in large absolute numbers.

 

On your other points, I hope that all of these factors have brought in many new collectors. But unlike most who post here, it isn't because I equally hope it will cause prices to explode higher. Contrary to what I think most believe, what I see is an excessive amount of speculation which is what caused prices to increase as much as they did. Long term steady price appreciation is or at least can be healthy for a hobby. Price bubbles from excessive speculation which result in large proportional losses for many or most newcomers can only be described as a negative and this is exaclty what i believe has recently happened in your country.

Edited by jwither

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jwither

Gert,

 

I think what you say is true to a certain extent of new collectors, but it certainly does not explain why the presumbly still relatively numerous longer time collectors who I believe mostly do not own these better circulated coins do not buy them for what are actually either low or ridiculously low prices. The same applies to affordability. Yes, maybe there are some or even many who know the coins are scarce but who do not have the money, but I find it hard to believe that this explains either the current pricing or the pricing structure.

 

When I first started collecting Union coins, the census counts were really low and I was not aware of either BoB or most public auctions (such as DNW). Heritage I knew but they did and still do sell few. I learned first hand by trying to buy the coins myself and when I could not find them even though the Krause prices were modest or very low, it was then that I knew they were scarce. I could find almost nothing I considered worth buying before 2004 or thereabouts. The SA based collector presumably had an easier time during this period (1998-2006) and ironically because of it, may have learned less than I did.

 

Today, I do not see that what should be the sufficiently numerous relatively knowledgeable collectors and 'investors", including those who started in 2006 after Union became more available as a result of TPG and rising prices, have what I described as an "excuse" or reason. As I have written many times, I think that most of these coins are more common or a lot more common than most in your country probably believe, but most are not common or that common in absolute terms. I primarily write the opinions I write on this board because I have a completely different opinion than most here on what the actual scarcity (whatever it actually is) means for what these coins should be worth.

 

For circulated "collector" coins specifically, by this I mean that unless the number of real collectors (as opposed to "investors") is so low or most are so broke, then there are still likely nowhere near enough "key date" coins such as a 1927 NGC XF-45 1/ to go around for everyone who both does not own it and can afford it.

 

I agree with you that many collectors, including experienced ones, make the mistake you describe. Yes, I have made it by buying more common coins first. Historically, it is usually better to buy the scarcer ones first both because the common coins can be bought more easily later but also because the prices of "key dates" tend to go up much more. Many US collectors will tell you that they made this mistake and either had to "pay up" later or were priced out of "key dates" completely.

 

But then what I describe, this assumes that SA collectors actually want to complete their sets. The anecdotal evidence available to me indicates that most do not really care. Because if they did, then they could always buy the coins I am profiling now and then buy a better one later. This is a common practice in the US (and elsewhere to my knowledge) and is an entirely logical approach if real collecting is your goal.

 

On the other hand, if you are an "investor" and your goal is to only or mostly make a windfall, then what I see makes perfect sense, except for the pricing structure which is absurd for SA coins. Historically, buying lower grade coins is not as profitable as acquiring their higher grade counterparts. (This comment of course being subject to the caveat of not paying too much which is apparently something a disproportionate number of SA "investors" were/are either unaware of or did not bother to consider.)

 

Buying lower grade coins first and then upgrading later typically results in "slippage". The real collector will accept it (within reasonable limits based upon their situation) because making a profit is not their primary motive and they are willing to treat it as a potential consumption expense. The "investor" will either do it less often or not at all. The difference between the US and South Africa in the buying and selling of circulated coins is that, in the US, there is enough real collector demand where someone can buy "key dates' (and even many other coins) in decent (and sometimes even very low) circulated grades and still make money while in SA apparently, the collector cannot. The combination of everything I describe now and in prior posts is what leads me to logically conclude that "investing" is (far) more important in your country than real collecting among a disproportionate number of coin buyers

Edited by jwither

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jicol

Wonder if another angle is crime in South Africa.My background is more of collected than investor and I have been collecting on and off South African coins since the mid 1980's.I had a robbery a while ago and some coins I received just two days before were stolen.

When I reflected on this and combining the volatility of the market plus the risk I decided to over time sell off what I have and stop collecting.As an investment it is obviously to risky and as a hobby what good is it if you have to keep everything at the bank and cannot take them out and look at it every now and then.

Wonder if others had the same experience and decided to also put their coins on an already thin market.

 

Jimmie

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Ron888

Hello Jimmie,

 

I avoid to buy coins locally and I dislike getting coins thru mail. If necessary I have a physical address in a business center. Although there were two attempts of bunco to get valuable coins from me (worth about 2500 to 3000 Euros).

 

I live in Germany and if you look back in German history I ask myself: What is a 1000 Mark banknote (1910) from the Kaiserreich worth today? You can get them for a few Euros. What are the billion Reichsmark bills from inflation Weimar times worth today? Nothing, only tourists buy them. What are banknotes from East Germany (DDR) worth today? A few Euros but only if you find a buyer...

 

I have e.g. a ZAR 1892 halfpond in AU condition. What is this coin worth today? I don´t really know... But even for halfponds in much lower condition people pay much more money today than I paid for my coin. Yes, there are alway ups and downs in the market. But halfponds and ponds in AU/Unc condition have been always in demand for world gold coin collectors. And as far as there are rich people worldwide there is a demand for these coins.

Just look at Cyprus, a member of the Eurozone. Today (Saturday) it was announced that there is a ´"bailout". Banks in Cyprus are closed on monday. And if they open again on thuesday, there is 6,75 percent one-time tax on small deposits. The tax is 9.9 percent on Cypriot bank deposits of more than 100,000 euros... And what we see in Cyprus now, will happen to more countries in Europe and worldwide.

 

All Western countries are drowning in a sea of debt, including South Africa. In these times gold or gold coins are always a lifeboat.

 

Just my personal view! Kind Regards Ron

Edited by Ron888

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