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SANGS Grading -- Inferior to NGC??!!!

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Even a beginner can see that the SANGS coin has been polished.It has lost the attractive lustre that the NGC coin still has and was minted with.

 

You be the judge - pics dont easily lie.

 

Geejay

 

Hmmm this reminds me of why I left this forum... a lot of mud being thrown by a handful of people who claim to be "experts" just because they buy and sell coins here

 

I would certainly place Alex's level of expertise way above the person quoted here who threw the mud. And that is from an INFORMED position.

 

Just my penny's worth

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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kyle2
Hmmm this reminds me of why I left this forum... a lot of mud being thrown by a handful of people who claim to be "experts" just because they buy and sell coins here

 

I would certainly place Alex's level of expertise way above the person quoted here who threw the mud. And that is from an INFORMED position.

 

Just my penny's worth

 

Scott Balson

 

I always say, 'He who slings mud, loses ground'. As it has been established that Coin grading companies are not infallible, the the only criteria for choosing one should be personal preference, personally, I would prefer the convenience of a local grading company, coins graded and returned within a week or so. As can be seen in the posts above, Sangs appears to have a very competant coin grader who has Integrety, that is good enough for me.

Some who have sent coins for grading to NGC in april are still waiting for their coins.

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The three tiers of coin collecting

 

Hi Kyle

 

It's interesting because in this thread we have the three most important tiers of coin collecting represented.

 

We have the technocrat (like Alex) who love their hobby because of the TECHNICAL ASPECTS of South African coins; we have people like myself who love their hobby because of the thousands of hours of research they undertake into the HISTORY BEHIND specific coins and then we have the COLLECTOR.

 

Alex is an expert in coin grading, I am an expert in the history of the coins I find most fascinating and then we have the person who throws a few rands around and then presents himself here as THE expert in ALL THINGS. Most South African collectors just love their hobby a few (I could count on one hand) think they know everything JUST because they collect; so I am talking about the exception here.

 

I am only saying this in the best interests of OUR hobby and it's my last post on this thread .. :sneaky:

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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groundEFFECTED

Every body has a place in this argument. Whether an expert or not, I spend hours a day searching for my coins at good prices and Studying the ones I've already obtained. I have a trained eye for small details due to my proffession and too much time on my hands. These things amount to alot of knowledge stacked up rather fast. I'm certainly no expert but the wool cannot be pulled over my eyes that easily. The market is obsessed with NGC at the moment and if human nature is anything to go by this trend will surely change I don't follow trends however. I've made my decision for the present sangs is cheaper closer and friendlier. I'll grade with them until such time as the give me a reason to doubt them they won't become experts like you guys want if you won't send your coins. And at the price u pay if your not happy break it out and send it to NGC if you got sooo much money..... Right?

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bok2004

Why is it a matter of SANGS vs NGC or PCGS? the fact is this is our own grading company with experts like Alex, read his post that tells me a lot!! thumbs up to you Alex and thank you for standing up and defend all the bad things regarding your company it takes a man on a horse to do that and i am sure the people that read these posts can make up there minds and decide for them self as to where to send there coins, the only thing that makes me sick is the NEGETIVE people on here and i am still waiting an answer regarding this "WHY CANT WE GIVE SANGS A FAIR PLAYGROUND" they have just started where NGC and all others are years before us, they also started like SANGS did and with all SA and world collectors we made them what they are today.

 

NGC more than PCGS made a stack of money with the thousands and thousands of mandelas sended to them and mostly graded them as a batch and not one by one, AND THAT IS FINE!!! DAMM!! that is just a small R5 coin and i am sure in a batch NOT all of them has been handeld by a grader from the MIGHTY NGC and PCGS and again to the so called NEGATIVE COLLECTORS agains SANGS that is fine!!

 

Send a couple of thousand ZARS with the same domination and year to them and they will mostly treat them the same way as they do it with the mandelas so my point is dont get fooled by NGC and PCGS they also makes HUGE mistakes and then it gets wiped under the carpet because they are what they are thanks to all our millions given to them for grading coins that did not even came out of the batch, like Piere said eenie maainie mow you are a MS60 and your are a MS65 to me that is a HUGE eye opener as to what they realy are!!!

 

You can call it what you want i call it CROOKS, i also have a couple of good coins and i took them to SANGS and the grading was done maybe to my knollidge under graded, took them back and asked why and Alex and other graders explained why and that made me happy to the fact that those coins have there right grade, i am NOT going to send them to NGC to get a higher grade and be fooled like so many others are fooled and that comes down to the buyers that has to d***k deeper in there pockets again to obtain that fooled graded coin by the MIGHTY NGC and PCGS. I am waiting for the negative critics to dish me a mouth full, but to me SANGS is on the right way and they are fellow SA people that know our coins better that any other country in the world and that is a fact!!!

Edited by bok2004

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alloway65

I just hope that SANGS is given more of a chance to prove themselves than was given to SACGS!

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ryno4711

A good test to settle this argument would be to send the South Africa Union SANGS graded coins to a independent market ie: Heritage Auctions & see what the "rest of the world" opinion is to these graded coins. Let them compete there against similar NGC & PCGS graded coins. Will be very interesting to see what the price differences realised will be. If the world out there accepts them that could be a step in the right direction. As usual there is almost always a lot of money involved & smart money will guide preference. These coins will be bought & comments are due to follow...

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bok2004

To put SANGS against NGC and PCGS on Heritage or any international Auction wont be fair!! The world dealers and collectors does NOT know who is SANGS therefore it would not be fair.Give them some time just as what NGC and PCGS needed before they became famos and then we will see what will happen.It is more unlikely that any collector from abroad will send there coins to SANGS for grading but the SA market will then rather send there coins to SANGS as to an other company once they are excepted in the world coin numismatics and time is the main factor here.

 

 

Grading a coin is not the problem here its the after market that all is worried about and yes now it might be a problem if we talk about the resell market world wide. But as time goes on that would not be a problem. How many of us sell coins abroad? only a few the rest buy here and sell here so making use of SANGS on that principal, there cant be a big money loss as we all deal local!!

 

 

If we talk about grading a coin i dont see that there could be a 100% margin on any of the coin numismatics grading companys as they all make mistakes and they are all human, and that is NOT the problem either. The problem is many dealers and collectors call them selfs agents for either NGC or PCGS and they do have accounts with them on the basis the more coins you send us the more discount we will give you. They use NGC and PCGS as a money making business, they send other peoples coins on there behalf to either NGC or PCGS add 25% to 50% and make more money out of you as what it would cost for the grading itself. I have heard people say NGC is so cheap, it might be for them, send your coins to the so called agent and see what it would cost you!! and that is after he got his cut. THAT is why a lot of people is NEGATIVE regarding SANGS, they are going to loose money.!! If everyone can deal and send there coins to SANGS why will they then make use of NGC or PCGS if they are going to deal with the SA market??

 

 

I want to make it clear and say SOME people and i did NOT mention any names so please dont jump the gun, but if the shoe fits you use it.That is my opinion regarding the BIG war going on between the grading companys and not by the companys themself but by the guys that is going to loose mega bugs. I am sure that NGC and PCGS does not worry about SANGS because they are not a threat to them, they are there and SANGS is here, the so called war is between our own people in our own numismatic circle.

Edited by bok2004

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jwither

Bok2004,

 

You are correct that it is the aftermarket that is the "problem" for a SANGS graded coin. I agree with Scott that Alex is an expert in the grading of particularly Union coins and though I have my differences of opinion with him on other subjects, he is certainly as good as any grader at NGC for these coins, probably better.

 

The point I have made before is that for foreign buyers like myself, there is no reason to buy any SANGS graded coin that is worth "real" money any time in the forseeable future except maybe at a discount. The reason why it is not worth it is because of the potential risk in a resale. It cannot be denied. I have sold many South African coins and I know that if I were there instead of the US, I could have sold them for more. So there is no way I or someone in a similar situation will pay the South African price and then sell them for the lower international one..

 

How much this does or does not matter depends upon what coins someone is talking about. In my opinion, it matters more for Union than ZAR because there are a decent number of foreign buyers for these coins, even the most expensive. (Foreign presumably including some number of South African expats.) I'm not sure how true this is for Union but I suspect a lot less so.

 

Maybe SANGS will gain international acceptance or maybe it will not, assuming it even lasts long enough. Of the few non-US grading services (and I only know of TWO others), the Canadian ICSS (or ICCS) is the only one that I know where any number of collectors might prefer it to NGC or PCGS. They are definitely highly regarded though I cannot tell anyone here how many non-Canadian collectors think this way.

Edited by jwither

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bok2004

You are right it is the after market and that boils down to money!!. So called agents is going to loose out here and international collectors like you, but only until SANGS is known and that is were we play a role. NGC or PCGS is massive because of us, without collectors sending them coins they can close there doors. The same with SANGS as long as we are there for them they will make it as they already do in the SA market and i am sure they also want to be part of the international circle and that will only be if we support them and help them to reach there goals. They will gain international acceptance if we give them that support.

 

That is why i can not understand why are people so negative regarding SANGS. Yeh we might sit with coins graded by them international wise but look how they sell local wise, that is amazing. There is a big market from international buyers on our SA coins yes, but only a few people deal with them like you and me and some others and we have to walk that path and try and get them in that market two, after all that is where the money is for rare coins.

 

 

I realy hope that more people will get involve and support SANGS as how nice will it be if a SANGS coin and a NGC coin gets the same price on the international trade wow that will be amazing. No more coins to be send to NGC or PCGS as it wont make a difference who graded it. We as SA collectors will save money and have peace of mind sending our coins to our own local graders how nice will that be.

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alloway65

I have just had 20 Coins Graded by SANGS, with a turnaround time of less than a week, excellent & friendly communication and the Grades more or less what I expected after "examining" the coins myself before Couriering.:grin:

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bok2004

alloway65

 

i am glad to hear that, that is all we want just all of us happy lol

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jwither

bok 2004,

 

There are a few clarifications I need to make to your last post. NGC and PCGS are not really competing against SANGS at all or for that matter really, against any other grading service. They are primarily competing against each other. Most likely, they are completely indifferent to the points being made on this blog though they would never admit it. The reason for this is because the proportion of their volume that comes from South Africa and any other country is minimal and for PCGS is immaterial even for all "world" coins. It has matterred more in the recent past and will matter still more in the future because that is where the "growth" in this market is, but its not substantial today because most countries outside of the US DO NOT PREFER OR EVEN LIKE GRADED COINS. I have seen some ANECDOTAL indications that this might be changing thorugh the appearance of graded coins in some non-US auctions but not much.

 

I do not believe there is a big international market for SA coins and I do not believe anyone can demonstrate that. The demand for SA coins internationally is greater than many others but a far better description of it is that it is still very limited. It is a NICHE market. This is true of SA coins and I would also say it is true of US coins. Even though the US is by far the largest coin market in the world (it is probably a multiple of ALL OTHERS COMBINED), I''m not aware that there is any substantial market for these coins outside the United States. But whatever exists is certainly almost exclusively from expatriots and there just happen to be a lot of them because the US population is large.

 

The distinction between the impact of international demand on SA and US coins exists because since the total demand for SA coins is so much less, the impact is much greater. There are not enough international buyers to substantially impact most (if any) US coins while for SA it is apparent that this happens. In my opinion, the international demand for SA coins is by a lopsided margin in ZAR. I do not believe there is much international demand for Union at all and the reason I believe this is because ZAR is so much more expensive.

 

If there were any significant number of Union buyers outside of SA, I would expect the prices to be higher or much higher. The prices would be higher like they are for ZAR because there is a large pool of potential buyers who actually have the financial capacity to pay a lot more. Though I hardly consider SA coin prices "cheap" (they are overpriced today versus many alternatives given their relative merits), they are "dirt cheap" compared to the alternatives in the US and in my opinion, Australia. However, when any coin is being considered for purchase by someone outside their "home" market, it will almost always have to compete with these other options. That is how I view my purchases and I believe MOST foreign buyers think likewise. I am ABLE to buy and pay the current prices for most SA (and especially Union) coins, I simply CHOOSE not to because I do not consider them competitive at current prices versus the other coins I collect.

 

There are only a handful of coins that have real international demand but few or none of them would I describe as "investment" material. This includes ancient Greek and Roman, maybe Byzantine, some gold coins like the British Sovereign and some crown sized coins like the Spanish colonial pillars and "cobs". A few more maybe but not many.

 

Whether SANGS graded coins achieve price parity with NGC (or PCGS) is really irrelevant, at least to me. If they do fine and if not fine also. I presume it matters to those of you in SA but not otherwise. Heritage will accept coins ungraded for auction currently but none that are graded except for NGC and PCGS. I do not see that they will change this policy in the near future. I have no insight into that but I see no reason why they would. Others I presume will (such as Baldwin's or DNW) but since Heritage sells a significant proportion of more expensive SA coins outside of SA, I use this as ONE example that will impede their acceptance.

 

Finally, I am personally not interested in SA coins gaining wider acceptance outside of SA. I know or presume that all of you who post here think that way but I want them to decline in price just as I wish all the other coins I collect would also lose value. With SA coins, partly it is because I have already sold most of my better coins but mostly it is because I would one day like to complete my collection in better grades.

 

If any of you are interested in completing your collections as opposed to just making a windfall or a profit, you would think likewise. I have seen zero sentiments to that effect here. How exactly is anyone going to substantially improve, much less complete, their collection given that prices have far outstripped your incomes or capacity to buy them in the last 14 years since I started collecting them? The same is true to some extent with the other coins I collect. Yes, obviously I would like to sell them for a lot more money eventually, but what happens to their prices in between is irrelevant to me and it should be irrelevant to all of you also UNLESS there is the risk that one of you will be forced to sell at unfavorable prices in a weak market. Otherwise, why should anyone care?

 

Until the last few years, I was able to buy many coins (mostly Union) that are scarce or rare in better grades for dirt cheap prices. Now, I would rather buy the other series I collect because the values are much better.

Edited by jwither

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Cold Sea

Hi jwither,

 

most countries outside of the US DO NOT PREFER OR EVEN LIKE GRADED COINS.

 

It is clear that local dealers are taking advantage of the NGC grading phenomena. I guarantee you that some of them will only remember the slab, and not the characteristics of the coin they sold. If local happens to become the flavour of the month, they will switch allegiance in a heartbeat, never mind what the US collector thinks.

 

Grading is a good thing, as it eliminates the seller’s opinion of a grade, but two companies cannot be the be-all and end-all of grading South African coins. This might sound silly, but I wonder if the sentiment would be the same if some ICCS (Canadian grading) slabbed South African coins arrived on the local market. ICCS is rated in Canada and the US and specialises in Canadian coins.

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither

There is no predetermined number of grading companies that is "optimal" for any market. In the US, there are and have been many in addition to NGC and PCGS. There is ANACS, ICG, PCI, SEGS, ACG and others I cannot even remember. (Some here have posted about NNC because many SA coins in these holders have been sold on eBay. I DO NOT consider this outfit a grading service at all. Whoever owns it is a "self slabber".) Its just that for a variety of reasons, which I would primarily attribute to their inconsistency and poor grading, all but NGC and PCGS have been relegated to the dustbin of irrelevancy. To my knowledge (since I do not know or really care), they still survive somehow but they do not matter.

 

In South Africa, SANGS (or any other prospective grading service) has the benefit of collector and "investor" preference for graded coins which other countries do not have. But it also has the disadvantage that NGC and PCGS have already (presumably) graded a disproportionate percentage of the better and more valuable ZAR and Union coins, though I believe less than either everyone or most everyone else here believes.

 

In prior posts, I have also explained in some detail what the ECONOMIC obstacles are to the success of ANY grading service in South Africa which are independent of the quality of grading. No one here has provided a counterargument to what I said. To refresh everyone's memory, it is primarily the future size of this market and the market share distribution. Unless the collector base in SA for RSA increases substantially, all logic indicates that it will remain trivial if it remains viable at all.

 

As for ICCS, I bought one of these coins once, an 1897 MS-62 2/. I bought it on the chance that NGC would grade it an MS-63. It came back with the same grade and I sold it for slightly more, breaking even when considering the grading and selling fees.

 

I agree with you that South African dealers have no allegiance but just because a local preference for SANGS occurs in the future hardly means that the few foreign collectors would change theirs. If that happened, the SA buyer would have to evaluate what impact this would have on resale and the same applies to someone like me. The example I gave about Heritage would likely remain regardless of what SA collectors prefer. I doubt SANGS will come to be any more highly regarded than ICCS and Heritage does not accept these coins, so why would it differ for a SANGS coin in the future absent a change in the policy for all coins? In my case, I would do whatever makes sense and at this time, there is no reason whatsoever for me to prefer a SANGS to an NGC or PCGS coin in the same grade for the same price. For LESS money maybe, but not otherwise.

 

My personal preference has nothing to do with the assigned grade and I assume that both are equally likely to identify "problem" coins. I also consider the likelihood of counterfeits for most SA coins to be low or very low. It is a matter of marketability and resale because if this was not the consideration, I would not even care if my coins were graded at all. I am buying coins and not an expensive piece of plastic with a higher number on the holder. This is why I consider it a waste of money to chase "conditional" rarities or coins near it for exorbitant amounts or ridiculous premiums to other high quality but much cheaper specimens.

Edited by jwither

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Cold Sea

But what about the hobbyist

 

Hi jwither,

 

Your economic argument makes all the sense in the world. However, I would argue this applies more to the higher end coins. The question is how many of the South African NGC graded coins are sold on the international market. I would guess a minority.

 

Geejay argues that NGC will give a uniform grading standard/value to South African coins. This is a noble idea, but as we have seen there is an opinion on this forum that they tend to overgrade of late. I think there is an argument for local slabs. Once the idea is accepted, not necessarily by the big money, it will add rather than distract from collecting, and add flavor for the hobbyist, who might just be happy with a small profit on his “investment”.

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither

You are correct, there is or is likely to be a big difference between the more expensive and cheaper coins. As long as SANGS has the same or stricter standards, I do not see that acceptability should be a problem for the "lower end", whatever that may be in the opinions of most.

 

I also agree with you that having one grading company does not provide the benefit you mentioned in your post. NGC and PCGS have their own standards but I believe that the competition between the two requires them to adhere to a better standard. I say this because I do not believe that ANY monopoly has EVER resulted in higher quality and certainly not cheaper prices. From the standpoint of all of you in SA, a local service adds another option but its just not practical for anyone who does not live there.

 

The primary consideration that I think collectors need to consider though with lower value coins is how much they want to spend on grading fees versus the actual coins. That is what I recommended in my earlier post on this topic and I think it is something ALL collectors need to think about, not just those in South Africa.

 

Yes, I know that there are some or many who want all or maybe most of their coins graded, but in actuality, it is a waste of money. I have this same opinion for those in the US who spend their money the same way. in my opinion, the primary market opportunity for SANGS is going to be in RSA and circulated ZAR and Union. It is where the bulk of the potential incremental volume exists that they can captuire that is currently not held by NGC.

 

The problem with this though is that there is no practical reason to have most of these coins graded. Most circulated ZAR or Union will gain little (if any) incremental marketability from it and the holder does not provide any real additional protection either. These coins already have a natural layer of protection from the wear they have. The only RSA that are likely to achieve any meaningful marketability are "conditional rarities" or those near it. I do not see that the vast majority of them will be worth much more than now, even in higher MS grades, much less as a generic uncirculated. (There are a few recent sales on eBay for the Jan Von Riebeck series to confirm this statement. These MS-66 coins sold for LESS than the grading fee.) For these coins, there are alternative storage methods which are entirely satisfactory. Per my prior comments, I have many MS coins dated between 1618 to 1892 (when ZAR circulation strikes started) which survived in their current state for much longer or under more primitive conditions than exist or existed in South Africa. If these coins are still in their superior condition (such as my 1721 Spain Seville NGC MS-66 2R), then why is this not possible for any SA coin?

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
I am getting rather tired of all you negative mongers who have absolutely no clue how to grade a coin. Basing your grading knowledge purely on how the NGC grades coins is a massive mistake but if you choose to use this method be my guest. Instead of knocking SANGS continuously why not put your money where your mouth is and put us to the test? What do you have to lose by testing us? All the negative comments come from persons who have not even attempted to see if we know what we are doing. submit some coins to test us, then you can make an informed and proper decision on our abilities.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I have delayed my response due to work and time shortage.

 

Here is a table below of the last two submissions I made to NGC , their outcome and in one the actual cost per coin inclusive of VAT and courier charges is stated.

 

The table below shows two things at least I think:

 

1) I DO know what a gradeable coin should look like despite your insinuations in this forum to the contrary.

 

2) NGC submission is cheaper than many think and certainly cheaper than SANGS for ZAR coins

 

I have no wish to trade insults with you about whether I can or cannot judge a cleaned coin.Suffice to say that a number of these coins that were submitted I needed to give an opinion on as to their gradability to their owners. That is part of the service I give.

 

Anyone who has access to the website of NGC can confirm the coin identities from the Submission Numbers given under Research then go to NGC Certification.Two of the coins were unique Union varieties hitherto not known about.A number of high quality George V coins were graded.

 

The facts speak for themselves.

 

Geejay

 

 

Date of Submission : 19/06/2012

Coins sent : 88

Sub Nos 2776436,2776437,2776441

Coins graded: 81 , Cleaned 5, Other causes for rejection,3

Success rate : 92%

 

Date of Submission: 11/04/2012

Coins sent: 66

Sub Nos: 3618825,2773263 (All ZAR incl two AU Ponden),2774098,2774101,

Coins graded: 66 , Nil rejections

Success Rate: 100%

Total Grading Cost per coin (Inclusive of Courier Charges) R276

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geejay50
Here are pics to illustrate the difference of grading standards between SANGS and NGC

 

 

357545-500501565-l.gifXMLCB.jpg

 

sIQpf.jpg

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3839[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3840[/ATTACH]

 

Even a beginner can see that the SANGS coin has been polished.It has lost the attractive lustre that the NGC coin still has and was minted with.

 

You be the judge - pics dont easily lie.

 

Geejay

 

Hi Folks,

 

In spite of Alex's support for the SANGS coin, it fetched R1111 on auction ended 05.09.2012

 

The NGC coin fetched R2387 and ended 25.08.2012.

 

That is the final word on the matter from the market

 

Geejay

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gogex

Lost coins

 

Hi Folks,

 

In spite of Alex's support for the SANGS coin, it fetched R1111 on auction ended 05.09.2012

 

The NGC coin fetched R2387 and ended 25.08.2012.

 

That is the final word on the matter from the market

 

Geejay

 

Geejay,icon8.png

I'd rather grade my coins with S.A.N.G.S. and have peace of mind, as to ask you to send my coins to NGC and after three months+

no coins,and a lot of that someone stole my coins. After our hefty tel.disc. my coins was returned to me not even leaving the country.(At least you send me a free Mandela R5 for my inconvenience. I USED IT AT THE TOLL GATE on my way to SANGS. Thanks.

Gogex

Edited by qball
Removed profanity

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Jongleur

Which means that the SANGS coin was an absolute bargain. And the NGC coin was hectically over - priced.

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geejay50
Geejay,icon8.png

I'd rather grade my coins with S.A.N.G.S. and have pease of mind, as to ask you to send my coins to NGC and after three months+

no coins,and a lot of that someone stole my coins. After our heafty tel.disc. my coins was returned to me not even leaving the country.(At least you send me a free Mandela R5 for my inconveniance. I USED IT AT THE TOLL GATE on my way to SANGS. Thanks.

Gogex

 

Hi Gogex,

 

Sorry you got ripped off in sending your coins to NGC. You should chose someone with a track record of being honest that you can check up on from others that he has sent for - or do it yourself.... its not that hard.

 

I send coins for people who trust me and me them.Its a two way thing.I dont make a lot on the submission really and its more a test for me of my ability to make the correct assessment on a coin . I actually am a collector and not a dealer primarily. I want the hobby to thrive and have a sound foundation based on reliable grading standards.Thats why when Alex expresses irritation at people ' who have no clue about grading' I have to stand up for myself.

 

I have some high value coins in my collection and have to defend the overall grading standards that provide the support framework for my investment. Other collectors should do the same - for similar reasons or risk the whole hobby to be devalued by people who only want short term gain. Its the same as Standards in Education or Health. They can very easily be dummed down.

 

I have never swopped coins or pretended to lose coins on the way to and from NGC whilst grading for other people.In fact I have never lost a single coin out of several thousand that have gone to NGC or PCGS over the last six years and that believe it or not was all done WITHOUT INSURANCE.Once you insure a Veldpond lets say, the transport KNOWS its valuable and it will become a target. I have sent several Veldponden and Burgersponden,finest known Single Shaft 1892 Pond, Sammy Marks Tickey etc all for a grading fee of $19 believe it or not.SANGS wants R2000 as a fee for Veldponden - Local is not always cheaper and stealing or swopping can easily happen locally too !! NGC has a camera system in place monitoring the passage of your coins, SANGS does not.

 

Once an owner acused me of swopping his Silver R1 Inauguration for mine and when I showed him pics of what my raw one looked like versus the graded one, he apologised.

 

I do not go out of my way though to grade for others and want good will to exist between us as trivial as this sounds - I insist that the owner keeps photographs of all the coins he sends.Suspicion can easily arise if you market yourself as someone who wants to grade for people.It is a delicate issue.

 

Actually I dont think there are many ZAR and top Union coins left to grade anymore and SANGS has come too late - Grading old coins is not a big money making issue really. They can grade coins that NGC and PCGS has rejected though and get a bad name for doing that ,,, at least they will make a bit of short term money.They can even pretend a polished coin is a good unc or put their heads in the sand and avoid the issue.We said this at the begining that most of our Numismatic Cream lies in NGC and PCGS slabs already. Why do we need a local effort other than for the cheaper modern Mandela type?

 

Unfortunately the above SANGS 1892 Sixpence AU58 has fetched 38% of what the Coinguide SA rules as an average of the last three prices for which the same grade of NGC coin has sold (R2875). That shows you that certainly in the ZAR group , the market does not have the same confidence in the grading standards of SANGS. You cannot expect to get NGC prices for SANGS graded coins come selling time.

 

The Coinguide SA deserves all our support, it is the best truly objective way of getting a price ruling on a graded coin. The more collector input it gets on actual trade prices, the more healthy and attractive rare coins will become as an investment.Newcomers dont need to be ripped off anymore if they use the guide and to my knowledge it is the first of its kind in the World - as South Africans we can be proud of that !!

 

 

My thoughts

 

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50
Spelling mistake correction

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ZARBOY

Hi George

 

Reading the posts in this forum the last week or two is sad.

 

I think most people dont really understand the bigger picture. We need to start with basics and understand coin grading in a whole. Unfortunately the numismatic industry has evolved as to where every person has his own understanding of coin grading. This makes me think of a specific ZAR coin that someone showed me for comments some years ago. I gave him my answer regarding the coin and the grade. I ended up making the following statement: " NGC will not grade this coin " Just after I made this statement, it got me thinking that I was giving my opinion in terms of "NGC Grading Standards".

 

During the period of 2004 - 2007 I sent numerous coins all over the world for grading. In a close circle of collectors we had a very good understanding of sending certain type coins for grading to NGC, other types to PCGS and even smaller firms. The times we have discussed that this graded coin will get a better grade from the other firm. How many times high grade coins was resubmitted to the "best" grading company for that specific coin" This list is endless. We knew and manipulated the systems to get the maximum possible grade.

 

Today we almost need to ask, what grading standards apply??? the NGC grading standard, ANA Grading Standard, the Brittish Grading system as applied by CGS-UK and many more. For many years before us, the acceptable grading standard adopted was the Sheldon Scale and the Brittish System. As we in South Africa moved away from the Brittish System to Sheldon, we need to decide where we stand. Do we in South Africa accept the Sheldon Scale adopted by ANA or the revised self " NGC " system?

 

I do not believe any grading company to be right or to be wrong. As opinions differ, grading firm choices differ, collectors interest differ - this debate will go on forever!!!

 

Like yourself being a massive supporter of NGC, I do not rate them as being the king as they give to be. Dodgy dealings, inside contacts and the list goes on. I have seen coins being graded wrongfully, eg fake veldponden, 98 penny as 93 and the list goes on.I have seen pennies in holders with single Copper II Acetate verdigris on it. Now to explain this to to the novice or collector that does not understand grading in full: Cu(CH3 COO)2 is a chemical known as Copper II Acetate that acts basically as a disease to copper, bronze or brass coins. It can almost only spread by human contact or coin to coin contact. Now, how does this develop inside a holder (after being graded) from a firm like NGC, handling the coins (each and every one) with the utmost of care? Just to say, it is fairly simple to stop CIIA from spreading.

 

Speaking to actual graders is clearly stated as impossible on the NGC website. It is common knowledge that you are not even allowed to know their names. Now, I can tell you now that some of the NGC graders has given me class in ANA Summer Seminars in the USA. I have spoken to NGC graders and about coins in their personal collection. This whole picture portraid to the world is actually a joke.

 

The difference in prices also makes me think. Like you mentioned the 92 6pence price difference. Maybe the NGC grade was over payed. What is the true market value? it is the value the buyer of that item has placed on it and bought it for in a fair and open market. Willing buyer and willing seller. Does the actual coin differ? no, not at all. If I wanted to make a quick buck, I would have bought the SANGS 6pence, resend to NGC and sold at a profit. Some collectors ad more value, actually much more value to outside influence than the actual coin, like the holder, the firm, the seller, the pedigree and the list goes on. Why would certain sellers achieve better prices? Pedigrees like Remick, Pittman, Ford, Eliasberg and even our own Bakewell will achieve higher prices than the exact counterpart coin. Interesting to note that Remmick was never a fan of the NGC module, but the coins still ended up being pedigreed and slabbed by them. The above now actually makes me think of how important the financial side to our hobby has become!!! To further prove that outside influence have an effect is in lets say a 2008 Mandela MS67, NGC on average sells for about 50% more than their PCGS counter part. Same coin, same grade, difference in prices. Now I wonder why??? lol

 

To get to SANGS, George lets start looking for answers and solutions rather go on with these kind of posts.

 

If coin collectors and dealers should have no influence in grading coins, what is the solution? Who funds this project? Who grades the coins? And more importantly, who expertly and independently grades these coins? I have proven over and over dealer influence in every single grading firm in the world. it will always be there!!!

 

Like you have mentioned, the guys are in for a short and quick gain? Mr Kaplan, 3rd generation dealer and Mr. Schoeman, 2nd generation in the coin industry. Both have a reputable name in the industry for many years. Their family names in our hobby is both older than almost all collectors. I highly doubt they want to make quick money.

 

Very impressive with your grading success as stated in the forum. Would love to know honestly how your opinions and grades differs from NGC and how it will again differ if the same coins was submitted for instance to a Brittish Grading Scale, like CGS-UK or even expertly graded under the original ANA adopted Sheldon Scale. And to quickly explain the differences in very short. One will never receive the same "high" grade in the UK as in the USA, but then one will never receive the high "rejected" coins in the UK like in the USA.

 

All collectors have a right to decide what they prefer, from grading firms to their own collections. No collector has the right do not respect anothers collectors choices and decisions.

 

Regards

 

Thomas

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jwither

Any debate or argument of NGC (or PCGS) vs SANGS is a waste of time. I do not find that one example of the 1892 6p conclusive but I find it interesting (and amusing) that when prices are below what someone likes, it is not the "real" price. No one here has ever expressed this type of sentiment when I have pointed out the ridiculous prices on any number of coins that are discussed here. And on the few occassions when there have been coins that have sold cheap, these are hardly ever mentioned either.

 

Ultimately, the market is going to decide which grading service's holders have better marketability. If enough SA collectors and "investors" decide that SANGS is the preferred choice, then it will be at least for Union and most ZAR because they buy most of them. And if not, it will not be. It is as simple as that.

 

If anyone does not find the grading standards of a particular service acceptable, then don't buy the coins in their holders. Buy them "raw" if you can find them or in the one you like. Personally, I do not have any confidence in any dealer (in SA or otherwise) to pay anywhere near the NGC (or PCGS) graded price for a "raw" SA coin of any material value unless I can inspect it first which is almost never an option. When I did look to buy from SA dealers in the past, a well known dealer whom I bought from once mostly sold me what I would describe as a combination of overgraded (by both mine and NGC standards) and problem coins. This dealer has been in business for 40 or more years and when they did list their prices (now they do not), they were at the absurdly inflated Hern catalog prices. Is this representative of dealers in your country? Maybe not, but it is not unusual regardless of the country. I have bought coins from both dealers and auction firms all over the world and this behaviour, combined with the increasing amounts of money coins cost, is what led to the creation of grading services in the first place.

 

Since for most coins, the only real reason to have them graded is to improve their marketability, the grading standards themselves do not really matter. What matters most is whether they are (mostly) consistently applied at any given point in time. For the most part, I would say that both NGC and PCGS do a good job at what they do and the overwhelming proportion of both collectors and "investors" agree with my opinion because if they did not, either one or both would be out of business, the coins in their holders would sell for less or much less or the expensive coins would be sold outside of their holders instead of in them. Today, almost no expensive US or SA coins are sold "raw". The market has shown its preference but no one is forcing anyone to either buy or sell any coin in one of these holders. Anyone is free not to do so at their own risk and potential financial detriment.

 

What I just described is no different than what applies to me. I do not believe SA coins represent the values they once did and have said so many times. I can either buy them at the going prices or not. At the current time, I have mostly chosen not to do so. If they end up selling for more later, then I will both "miss out" on any subsequent gains and either have to "pay up" if I want them and can do so or possibly never complete my collection. But regardless of what I prefer, the market is not going to lower them for my benefit anymore than market grading standards or practices are going to change to accomodate anyone's specific preference.

 

Lastly, as I have pointed out many times before, if collectors (if not "investors") would actually care more about the coin inside the holder instead of the label, this discussion would not even be occurring. Before TPG, no one would have paid the exorbitant premiums which exist between higher and lower MS grades or (in SA) between MS and better AU coins. In some instances, the lower graded coin would (and should) sell for more because in actuality, it is a better specimen. Knowledgeable collectors knew this and both did not care or need anyone to tell them about minutia that could only be observed under magnification.

Edited by jwither

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kyle2
Hi George

 

Reading the posts in this forum the last week or two is sad.

 

 

During the period of 2004 - 2007 I sent numerous coins all over the world for grading. In a close circle of collectors we had a very good understanding of sending certain type coins for grading to NGC, other types to PCGS and even smaller firms. The times we have discussed that this graded coin will get a better grade from the other firm. How many times high grade coins was resubmitted to the "best" grading company for that specific coin" This list is endless. We knew and manipulated the systems to get the maximum possible grade.

 

Today we almost need to ask, what grading standards apply??? the NGC grading standard, ANA Grading Standard, the Brittish Grading system as applied by CGS-UK and many more. For many years before us, the acceptable grading standard adopted was the Sheldon Scale and the Brittish System. As we in South Africa moved away from the Brittish System to Sheldon, we need to decide where we stand. Do we in South Africa accept the Sheldon Scale adopted by ANA or the revised self " NGC " system?

 

I do not believe any grading company to be right or to be wrong. As opinions differ, grading firm choices differ, collectors interest differ - this debate will go on forever!!!

 

Like yourself being a massive supporter of NGC, I do not rate them as being the king as they give to be. Dodgy dealings, inside contacts and the list goes on. I have seen coins being graded wrongfully, eg fake veldponden, 98 penny as 93 and the list goes on.I have seen pennies in holders with single Copper II Acetate verdigris on it. Now to explain this to to the novice or collector that does not understand grading in full: Cu(CH3 COO)2 is a chemical known as Copper II Acetate that acts basically as a disease to copper, bronze or brass coins. It can almost only spread by human contact or coin to coin contact. Now, how does this develop inside a holder (after being graded) from a firm like NGC, handling the coins (each and every one) with the utmost of care? Just to say, it is fairly simple to stop CIIA from spreading.

 

Speaking to actual graders is clearly stated as impossible on the NGC website. It is common knowledge that you are not even allowed to know their names. Now, I can tell you now that some of the NGC graders has given me class in ANA Summer Seminars in the USA. I have spoken to NGC graders and about coins in their personal collection. This whole picture portraid to the world is actually a joke.

 

To get to SANGS, George lets start looking for answers and solutions rather go on with these kind of posts.

 

All collectors have a right to decide what they prefer, from grading firms to their own collections. No collector has the right do not respect anothers collectors choices and decisions.

 

Regards

 

Thomas

 

Any debate or argument of NGC (or PCGS) vs SANGS is a waste of time. I do not find that one example of the 1892 6p conclusive but I find it interesting (and amusing) that when prices are below what someone likes, it is not the "real" price. No one here has ever expressed this type of sentiment when I have pointed out the ridiculous prices on any number of coins that are discussed here. And on the few occassions when there have been coins that have sold cheap, these are hardly ever mentioned either.

 

Ultimately, the market is going to decide which grading service's holders have better marketability. If enough SA collectors and "investors" decide that SANGS is the preferred choice, then it will be at least for Union and most ZAR because they buy most of them. And if not, it will not be. It is as simple as that.

 

Since for most coins, the only real reason to have them graded is to improve their marketability, the grading standards themselves do not really matter. What matters most is whether they are (mostly) consistently applied at any given point in time. For the most part, I would say that both NGC and PCGS do a good job at what they do and the overwhelming proportion of both collectors and "investors" agree with my opinion because if they did not, either one or both would be out of business, the coins in their holders would sell for less or much less or the expensive coins would be sold outside of their holders instead of in them. Today, almost no expensive US or SA coins are sold "raw". The market has shown its preference but no one is forcing anyone to either buy or sell any coin in one of these holders. Anyone is free not to do so at their own risk and potential financial detriment.

 

The majority of coin buffs who have made statements on this thread seem to agree that a local coin grader is not the evil entity that someone is trying to portray them as.

I still think that it should be a personal preferrence where one grades coins, and it should be left at that. The coin pictured above may not have fetched the same rand value as a NGC coin graded coin, perhaps the person who would have spent that kind of money was not available for the auction of the coin. The circumstancial variables are endless.

The fact that it did fetch over a thousand rand speaks volumes, not that it did not fetch someones expected price for it, but that there were in fact people interested in the coin!

This is also the nature of auctions, some auctions fetch high prices, some don't irrespective of the value of the item.

SANGS is hopefully here to stay, and I will be supporting them, and so will many others.

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