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SANGS Grading -- Inferior to NGC??!!!

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geejay50
Hi all!

Just a comment on this whole SANGS, NGC, etc issue. I figure that those that feel SANGS is not up to standard, even before they've even started, continue sending their coins for grading to the US. Those that would like to see SANGS succeed and would like to support a home grown grading company can send to SANGS. Is that not a simple solution to this matter?

Hi TransEd,

The point is, SANGS has started, they have had a chance to reveal their grading. We are commenting on the facts of that. It has nothing to do with not wanting to support the local effort and PURELY to defend basic standards of grading. We must not let cliches like "Proudly South African" creep into our judgement. I am as passionate about South African excellence like the recent Test Cricket or Rugby as anyone else.

I also notice that the most strident supporters of SANGS are not serious collectors with substantial holdings of high value coins. They are by and large short term speculators.I have yet to see one instance of someone taking say an MS64 NGC Veldpond and having it crossed over to SANGS - that will be the real test for SANGS but I wont hold my breath for it to happen.

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

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kyle2

I also notice that the most strident supporters of SANGS are not serious collectors with substantial holdings of high value coins. They are by and large short term speculators.I have yet to see one instance of someone taking say an MS64 NGC Veldpond and having it crossed over to SANGS - that will be the real test for SANGS but I wont hold my breath for it to happen.

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

Well, without wishing any confrontation or causing friction, and I truely mean this in the nicest possible way, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and lead the way? I'm very sure you have some valuable coins in your portfolio, you could silence any speculation both ways by submitting something to SANGS for grading, prove your point as it were, I for one would appreciate such an endeavor by a numismatist as yourself.

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alloway65

Business is business & money is money.......I am sure SANGS Bank Statement wont differentiate between the Elite and the Plebs!!!!!:wtf:

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Cold Sea
PURELY to defend basic standards of grading

 

Geejay, why don't we get say thirty guys together, send 30 of your (or anybody else's) coins to SANGS, break them out and send the same lot to NGC, each guy paying for one coin.

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geejay50
I have just Couriered my first batch of Coins to SANGS for Grading....communications with SANGS up to now has been very prompt & courteous.

 

Here are pics to illustrate the difference of grading standards between SANGS and NGC

 

 

357545-500501565-l.gifXMLCB.jpg

 

sIQpf.jpg

58f5a73de852f_18926dNGCAU58Rev.jpg.a44dac9e17a13be419a8faed70eb6fa2.jpg

 

Even a beginner can see that the SANGS coin has been polished.It has lost the attractive lustre that the NGC coin still has and was minted with.

 

You be the judge - pics dont easily lie.

 

Geejay

58f5a73de34ed_18926dNGCAU58Obv.jpg.76dcadbf48df3207fb5b9ebe45f40175.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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kyle2

Interesting, but not conclusive, the only way you are going to convince anyone is to actually send that very coin to NGC for a comparitive grade. If the coin is indeed altered in any way by polishing or cleaning, Ngc would comment on it and this whole argument will be settled and done. My challenge is still out there and this coin seems to be the perfect medium.:sneaky:

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geejay50

I suppose that there will always people who will believe that the earth is flat.I have no intention of crossing over any NGC coin to SANGS in view of the above pics and what they highlight. SANGS coins are already falling in value at auction as the market realises the lower standards.

 

Just for completeness' sake comparitive pics of the Obverse. In 7 years of USA grading, I have never seen NGC or PCGS misgrade such a polished coin. You are welcome to present such pics if you have any?

 

Geejay.

 

58f5a73ded956_18926dNGCAU58Obv1.jpg.207575a179928f8c98c73d40af122a0d.jpgsIQpf.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Jongleur
Interesting, but not conclusive, the only way you are going to convince anyone is to actually send that very coin to NGC for a comparitive grade. If the coin is indeed altered in any way by polishing or cleaning, Ngc would comment on it and this whole argument will be settled and done. My challenge is still out there and this coin seems to be the perfect medium.:sneaky:

 

I agree - inconclusive. I would rather buy the polished coin. To each his own.

Perhaps SANGS has set a new, higher standard whereas NGC had it wrong all these years.

Edited by Jongleur

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alloway65
I agree - inconclusive. I would rather buy the polished coin.

 

There are quite a few BoB coin sellers that sell polished coins, if that is your forte!!!! It did not worry me too much at the time as I was accumulating silver bullion and paying lower than the then current silver bullion price. But I would be very miffed if I was buying UNC or Proof Coins and they had been polished....which did happen!

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EWAAN Galleries
I suppose that there will always people who will believe that the earth is flat.I have no intention of crossing over any NGC coin to SANGS in view of the above pics and what they highlight. SANGS coins are already falling in value at auction as the market realises the lower standards.

 

Just for completeness' sake comparitive pics of the Obverse. In 7 years of USA grading, I have never seen NGC or PCGS misgrade such a polished coin. You are welcome to present such pics if you have any?

 

Geejay.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3841[/ATTACH]sIQpf.jpg

 

 

LOOKS ALMOST LIKE A PROOF :toung:

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jwither
I agree - inconclusive. I would rather buy the polished coin. To each his own.

Perhaps SANGS has set a new, higher standard whereas NGC had it wrong all these years.

 

If you would prefer to buy the polished coin, you must prefer to lose money. I have never bought a SANGS coin (nor do I ever intend to do so as a foreign collector) but one thing I can assure you is that assigning a numerical grade to a polished coin does not represent a higher standard. It was a mistake if this is what actually happened.

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alloway65
Here are pics to illustrate the difference of grading standards between SANGS and NGC

 

 

357545-500501565-l.gifXMLCB.jpg

 

sIQpf.jpg

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3839[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3840[/ATTACH]

 

Even a beginner can see that the SANGS coin has been polished.It has lost the attractive lustre that the NGC coin still has and was minted with.

 

You be the judge - pics dont easily lie.

 

Geejay

 

Possibly SANGS should be asked to comment!

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geejay50
LOOKS ALMOST LIKE A PROOF :toung:

 

Hi Ahmed,

 

Just to remind collectors of the Proof Look where the die has been polished and not the coin.There is still lustre on the devices of the coin with a mirror effect in the field. Polishing would have removed that delicate lustre and caused wear and blunting seen especially on the strands of hair in the hairline.The lettering is also razor sharp unlike the business strikes.

 

Beginners could easily be sold coins with a mirror efect caused by polishing as Proofs if they do not look for the above.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a73e17128_18926dPCGSPf63Rev.jpg.7a66d475407e421a72354711314ecbdb.jpg

58f5a73e12242_18926dPCGSPf63Obv1.jpg.7bf3b3ed5e07b0071fdaef1d07fb97e5.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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ALJADA
Possibly SANGS should be asked to comment!

 

I graded the coin and it is neither a proof coin nor is it conclusively polished. The pictures do NOT reflect the true quality of the coin and I have yet to meet a wizard who can accurately grade a coin from pictures on the web! Perhaps Georg can give me a lesson on how to achieve such wizardry!? The coin is a very beautiful example of a ZAR 6 pence albeit below MS and thats that. I do not wish to attack the NGC in terms of coins they have graded but I can assure you they have graded coins that are quite obviously polished as MS and coins that are MS as proofs.

 

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

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ALJADA

I am getting rather tired of all you negative mongers who have absolutely no clue how to grade a coin. Basing your grading knowledge purely on how the NGC grades coins is a massive mistake but if you choose to use this method be my guest. Instead of knocking SANGS continuously why not put your money where your mouth is and put us to the test? What do you have to lose by testing us? All the negative comments come from persons who have not even attempted to see if we know what we are doing. submit some coins to test us, then you can make an informed and proper decision on our abilities.

Edited by qball
Edited personal comments out

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qball

I will remind ALL users on the forum, to please respect each others opinion and not insult or attack other users...

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groundEFFECTED

I'd like to share my two cents.

I graded a lot of coins at sangs and although in the beginning there were a few issues(which were promptly fixed by one of the owners) I don't know where I stand. I feel NGC graders are slack I've noticed sangs grades a lot harsher than NGC but I cannot say why (lack of experience on my part) but I've had a coin from NGC graded as PF70 and the coin clearly was not a perfect coin it had marks in the frosted areas and a slight bur on the rim. I've bought a 2011 5rand clearly mislabeled as a2008 Mandela so if they couldn't see the difference between 2011 and 2008 (never mind that one has a man on the front and the front wand the other a few coin. )

 

I've sent a NGC graded PF69 to sangs(cracked out of the capsule) I never mentioned a thing about it to them I got it back PF 66

 

I've lost money now so which is the coins real grade ultimately all we are doing is paying for someone's opinion on this coin and NGC have thrown out enough boo boos to make me doubt them too

 

All in all sangs has really come to the party and they're doing a good job at protecting our coins and giving them a grade and constantly improving their services.

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groundEFFECTED

Just to add to that last comment I've spent over 5000 rand on grading costs and the total value of coins grade is over 25000 rand so I have a bit of value sitting in sangs slabs. Problem is I've lost a bit of value due to getting low grades even on coins I've thought were perfect under a 20x loop even

Edited by groundEFFECTED

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ALJADA
I'd like to share my two cents.

I graded a lot of coins at sangs and although in the beginning there were a few issues(which were promptly fixed by one of the owners) I don't know where I stand. I feel NGC graders are slack I've noticed sangs grades a lot harsher than NGC but I cannot say why (lack of experience on my part) but I've had a coin from NGC graded as PF70 and the coin clearly was not a perfect coin it had marks in the frosted areas and a slight bur on the rim. I've bought a 2011 5rand clearly mislabeled as a2008 Mandela so if they couldn't see the difference between 2011 and 2008 (never mind that one has a man on the front and the front wand the other a few coin. )

 

I've sent a NGC graded PF69 to sangs(cracked out of the capsule) I never mentioned a thing about it to them I got it back PF 66

 

I've lost money now so which is the coins real grade ultimately all we are doing is paying for someone's opinion on this coin and NGC have thrown out enough boo boos to make me doubt them too

 

All in all sangs has really come to the party and they're doing a good job at protecting our coins and giving them a grade and constantly improving their services.

 

Hello groundEffected

 

Firstly thank you for your kind words and support it is most appreciated.

 

In order to give you an idea of why your PF69 coin came back PF66 at SANGS please see the following which is used as the basis for grading such coins:

 

PF69 - 1 OR 2 MINISCULE CONTACT MARKS NONE IN PRIME FOCAL AREAS VISIBLE UNDER MAGNIFICATION (A LINT MARK, A FLAKE OR 2 CAN ALSO BE ACCEPTABLE); NO HAIRLINES AT ALL; FULLY STRUCK EXCEPTIONALLY SHARP; FULLY ORIGINAL & ATTRACTIVE LUSTER; OUTSTANDING EYE APPEAL.

 

PF66 - MINISCULE CONTACT MARKS POSSIBLY IN PRIME FOCAL AREAS VISIBLE UNDER MAGNIFICATION (LINT MARKS, PLANCHET FLAKES ARE ACCEPTABLE BUT NO MORE THAN A FEW); NO HAIRLINES VISIBLE WITHOUT MAGNIFICATION; FULLY STRUCK EXCEPTIONALLY SHARP; FULLY ORIGINAL & ABOVE AVERAGE LUSTER; ABOVE AVERAGE EYE APPEAL.

 

As you can see the differences are very small and it takes some time to develop the ability to distinguish between these high grades. If you still feel strongly about your coin after reading this and studying your coin, please contact SANGS and we will be happy to walk you through how we came to the grade assigned. Thank you again for your support.

 

Cheers

Alex

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kyle2

Thank you Alex for clearing up some issues for us all, I feel a lot more confident in SANGS and will continue to have my coins graded with SANGS. I do think that NGC is not the be all and end all, what they have going for them in reality is the fact that they have been around for a while, thats it. It is obvious that they can also make errors, I would rather have a coin graded a PF66, knowing that is the true grade, than one erroniously graded as PF69. A local grading company has home ground advantage and should in theory know more about local coins than one based on the other side of the world.

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jwither
Just to add to that last comment I've spent over 5000 rand on grading costs and the total value of coins grade is over 25000 rand so I have a bit of value sitting in sangs slabs. Problem is I've lost a bit of value due to getting low grades even on coins I've thought were perfect under a 20x loop even

 

In reading both of your posts, there are two mistakes you have apparently made.

 

The first is with the types of coins you apparently bought. If you have spent over R5000 when your coins are only worth (according to your estimate) somewhere over R25000, that is a disproportionate amount of money to be spending on grading fees. And it also implies that you have acquired a large number of low value coins which are "moderns", since the only coin you mentioned was a 2011 5R. You would have been better off buying fewer coins that actually have better demand. Now that the Mandela mania is over, I would rate practically every RSA coin "dead money". If you are interested in acquiring RSA coins just for collecting, buy them ungraded. Grading such coins, whether with NGC or otherwise, adds little marketability, even for "conditional" rarities", and is a waste of money.

 

The second is that you decided to "crack out" that coin and have it regraded, and I would make the same comment if the coin was graded by SANGS first and then sent it to NGC. There is no point in doing that that I can see, unless you just wanted to perform a test.

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groundEFFECTED

Firstly the coins I've graded have only ever been silver one rands all got pf65 and up I've started a silver rand collection and have graded Kruger tenths and a few union coins. Not all of us can afford to buy a coin for more than 3/4k at a time. My entire collection I graded for the only reason that they are protected in the slab and the grade is a bonus to me. So in an effort to keep my collection uniform I slabbed them at sangs I broke the NGC slab for three reasons. One was to see how difficult it is to open it without damaging it(almost impossible ) the 2nd was to see what sangs grading is like compared to NGC and third I wanted the uniformity.

 

Not once have I ever or will I ever grade a 5 rand coin I used it as an example don't assume I'm as dumb as the masses been around the block rode tgat bike heck I modified the bike then gave it back.

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groundEFFECTED

Yes I slabbed even the silver rands worth 150 each. You forget the real reason for the slabbing these coins is to protect them for a life time

 

That means I payed 300 min for coin worth 150 I'm not a crook looking for a sneaky deal I'm preserving coins that pertain to my collection.

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jwither

I did not forget anything. Slabbing is ONE method of protection but is hardly necessary. And if you do not believe this, I can show you many coins graded MS-65 or better that I own from the 18th century that must have survived (until they were finally graded) with much less chance of success than any coin ever produced in South Africa. The reason most people slab their coins are first for financial reasons and second in a market like the United States, to participate in the Registry competition.

 

And it is not a just a matter of how much money you or anyone else have to spend but how it is spent. Except for a handful of buyers, everyone else has a limited budget. The choice each individual has to make is how they spend it. Most collectors would prefer to spend their budgets on coins and not plastic. You can spend your money however you please.

 

As far as the NGC coin, you should have been aware that there was a risk that what happened to you could happen. On ocassion, NGC and PCGS not only "downgrade" each other's coins with a lower grade but REJECT them altogether by placing them in a "Details" or "Genuine" holder. There are many such posts included on the NGC Message Boards. The coin you submitted for crossover was of nominal value but many others have lost substantial amounts of their "investments" through such a decision.

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groundEFFECTED

I agree with your last statement I have lost but I knew it would happen I predicted a 67 got a bit less but I know that NGC is grading way too high it was said before and I'll say it again the standard has dropped coins that got ms grade lately would have struggled to get au a few years ago. The point is , is sangs inferior to NGC? no you can't compare they are not competing companies sangs is a new company and is constantly improving. The standard is risen each time I go grade more the cost to grade in my opinion is more than worth it waiting for a grade then seeing your coin in a slab feeling it too and I can do it in a week if I want to ask about them I just phone or mail anytime and bug it's about a service to us or those of us who choose to use it. All I can say is I'll buy sangs coins coz the chances are that the grade they've assigned is lower than what NGC would give (market grade) it's all a marketing scheme and ppl have taken to it in the wrong way

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