Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Xclusively U

SANGS Grading -- Inferior to NGC??!!!

Recommended Posts

Pierre_Henri

I agree with Georg regarding the great service that NCS provides. I recently sent an ugly duckling ZAR 1893 Shilling to NGC via NCS holding thumbs that it would make a XF40 grade. It came back an AU50 – that was good news indeed!

I also sent an 1893 ZAR Penny to NGC that was a fake :- SANGS threw the coin out because the “8” (1898 date) was clearly retooled to make it a “3” so that it looked like a 1893 date.

I got the results last week – NGC graded the fake as a VF35 1893 ZAR Penny.

Hoo-Haa!

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

I also sent an 1893 ZAR Penny to NGC that was a fake :- SANGS threw the coin out because the “8” (1898 date) was clearly retooled to make it a “3” so that it looked like a 1893 date.

I got the results last week – NGC graded the fake as a VF35 1893 ZAR Penny.

Hoo-Haa!

Pierre

,

 

Hi Pierre,

 

That 1893 Penny is an occasional error that I would never apologise for. How many other such errors do you know that NGC has made? They will also refund you on such an error and not pretend it did not happen.A VF 1893 Penny is not a big coin.

 

It is a small issue compared to the large number of ZAR coins that SANGS has given grades that are clearly cleaned.Those coins will remain a problem for us.

 

By and large , NGC remains the Gold Standard in grading with very few such errors.

 

Georg

 

 

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

I agree - at this stage it is very obviously that the NGC, with years to prove and establish themselves, is preferred to our own (very new) SANGS.

 

I would, for example and at this stage, rather have a 1931 Tickey in NGC slab than any other grading companies capsule.

 

The issue however, is if we will give SANGS enough time to prove themselves as reliable, bankable, trustable etc. and rally behind them?

If they come up shiny ("not cleaned"), I will support them:- if not, I will go where the numismatic market’s trust lies.

 

Really, I will go out of my way to support SANGS, BUT if they disappoint me, I will drop them like I hot potato.

As a coin collector and dealer with no affinity to any group, I will go with whatever the market dictates is the best.

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
I agree with Georg regarding the great service that NCS provides. I recently sent an ugly duckling ZAR 1893 Shilling to NGC via NCS holding thumbs that it would make a XF40 grade. It came back an AU50 – that was good news indeed!

I also sent an 1893 ZAR Penny to NGC that was a fake :- SANGS threw the coin out because the “8” (1898 date) was clearly retooled to make it a “3” so that it looked like a 1893 date.

I got the results last week – NGC graded the fake as a VF35 1893 ZAR Penny.

Hoo-Haa!

Pierre

 

The example you gave is not a counterfeit. It is an altered coin and yes, NGC should have detected it. Most of the time though, they see things that others do not. For example, I bought a 1734 Mexico 8R from Calico last year that came back "tooled". I did not see it and either Calico did not or they did not disclose it. My guess is that they missed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RISadler

I'm confused (and somewhat ignorant in these matters) ...

 

... NGC has rejected coins as cleaned ...

 

... submit both coin to NCS for conservation then NGC grading.

 

... the 1930 Farthing graded as MS63 (My guess was MS62 after NCS conservation) at NGC after NCS conservation.

 

So cleaning a coin with Silvo or Brasso is a no-no, OK. But if a coin grades better after "conservation," then doesn't that also imply some form of a cleaning process? :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
I'm confused (and somewhat ignorant in these matters) ...

 

 

 

 

 

So cleaning a coin with Silvo or Brasso is a no-no, OK. But if a coin grades better after "conservation," then doesn't that also imply some form of a cleaning process? :unsure:

 

Hi RISadler,

 

Cleaning is the rubbing of the coin with a cloth or other abrasive material. It removes the delicate lustre that a coin has at time of minting. It is shown up by multiple and parrallel hairlines which may be visible to the naked eye depending on the harshness.

 

Conserving a coin is a way that people have designed to take off tarnish and stains that a coin has acquired since minting that will sometimes cover the natural lustre of a coin. The big difference from cleaning being that the lustre is unaffected and thus the coin is reverted to its natural state at time of minting.

 

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries

All Humans Make Mistakes

 

Hi Ahmed

 

I thank you for your reply regarding the time it took to conserve & grade. I looked at the pictures of the 5 shilling and I would still grade it at best as SS63 even after conservation. Let me explain why:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3742[/ATTACH]

 

If you click on the pictures and enlarge them you will notice I have circled the problem areas on both the reverse and the obverse of this coin. The cheek of QEII is riddled with small pock marks commonly seen on many such coins and the prime focal areas are hairlined to quite some degree. The eyebrow of the springbok is not full and cannot be deemed a proof striking because of this. The reverse is also hairlined in prime focal areas. I would never give this coin any grade higher than 63 because tecnically speaking it is impossible to grade a proof or SS coin higher than 63 if there is so much activity in the prime focal areas.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3743[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3744[/ATTACH]

 

Thank you

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

 

Hi Alex

 

After looking closely at the pictures below I think you have definitely made an error here. The coin you graded as SS is clearly a proof coin and can be seen easily even with these pictures:

 

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PF65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833788) - Incorrectly graded by SANGS as SS

 

And to compare to a Special Select see this one:

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PL65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE in PL # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833816) - This is definitely SS

 

 

I would appreciate if you could clear this as one can easily see the difference between Proof and Proof Like. We all humans and make mistakes - All Graders (NGC, PCGS, SANGS) are not perfect, just like golfers - Can never hit the perfect shot every round.

 

Regards,

 

Ahmed

 

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri
Hi Alex

 

After looking closely at the pictures below I think you have definitely made an error here. The coin you graded as SS is clearly a proof coin and can be seen easily even with these pictures:

 

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PF65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833788) - Incorrectly graded by SANGS as SS

 

And to compare to a Special Select see this one:

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PL65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE in PL # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833816) - This is definitely SS

 

 

I would appreciate if you could clear this as one can easily see the difference between Proof and Proof Like. We all humans and make mistakes - All Graders (NGC, PCGS, SANGS) are not perfect, just like golfers - Can never hit the perfect shot every round.

 

Regards,

 

Ahmed

 

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

 

Hi Edwaan

 

I have the same question that you have - I have always had difficulty telling the difference between a Proof and a Proof Like - (PF vs PL).

 

What in your opinion is the big difference, if say, we are talking about Union 5/- pieces?

 

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
Hi Edwaan

 

I have the same question that you have - I have always had difficulty telling the difference between a Proof and a Proof Like - (PF vs PL).

 

What in your opinion is the big difference, if say, we are talking about Union 5/- pieces?

 

Pierre

 

 

Sorry Piet

 

No Edwaan here to help you :confused:

 

Regards,

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
Hi Alex

 

After looking closely at the pictures below I think you have definitely made an error here. The coin you graded as SS is clearly a proof coin and can be seen easily even with these pictures:

 

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PF65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833788) - Incorrectly graded by SANGS as SS

 

And to compare to a Special Select see this one:

Graded Coins - 1959 SA Union 5 Shilling (Crown) NGC Graded PL65 # KEY DATE # ULTRA RARE in PL # R1 Start for sale in Johannesburg (ID:72833816) - This is definitely SS

 

 

I would appreciate if you could clear this as one can easily see the difference between Proof and Proof Like. We all humans and make mistakes - All Graders (NGC, PCGS, SANGS) are not perfect, just like golfers - Can never hit the perfect shot every round.

 

Regards,

 

Ahmed

 

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

 

 

Hi Alex

 

I am not a grader, could you kindly clear the above for me... I for one can clearly see the first coin is proof when enlarging the pictures on NGC website.

 

Regards,

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cold Sea

Hide the dynamite, fuses are short

 

Hi Edwaan, Piet and all,

 

Krause describes Proof-like as early business strikes that exhibit qualities similar to Proof strikes. However, the proof-like fields are generally flawed, edges are rounded and are not double struck. Special select is another term for this category.

 

Now Alex’s reply to your post echo’s the description of the condition as found in Krause. You admit you are not a grader, but at the same time can clearly tell from a photo that the coin is proof quality, even with the detailed reply given to your question. Maybe you should point these out to NGC, see what their reply is, and then make a call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Interesting Article:

 

Graded Coins: Is This Market About to Break Out?

 

Regards,

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

 

That is not an article, but a marketing piece in disguise. It is focused on US moderns which are "grade rare" but in actuality as common as a grain of sand on the beach. Also, there is no possibility of extrapolating such an opinion (whatever specialty it may cover) to coins generally, whether "investment" quality or not. Until recently, South African coins were "hot" while most US coins appear to be "dead money" based upon the comments I read on the NGC Message Boards. It has only been selective US coins that have done well and these are not owned by the typical collector or "investor".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

Sorry Guys!

 

For the life of me I cannot get EWAAN right and always spells it EDWAAN - I have no idea why I do that but keep repeating it. I am sorry and should spell that out 100 times before typing it again!

 

I do not even know why I just call you on your first name (Ahmed) but your companies name just stuck in my mind - I salute you and the wonderful numismatic pieces you are offering to the coin hunger SA market.

 

So PLEASE - no bad intentions on my part - I have a terrible spelling reputation and should work on that.

 

My original question was regarding the difference between a PF and a PL 5/- piece but Cold Sea responded to that - I must tell you that I still have difficulty when it comes to differentiation between the two grades. Some say the difference lies in the rim of the coin but I cannot see that?

 

Peer Pierre Piet-Pompies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
Hi Edwaan, Piet and all,

 

Krause describes Proof-like as early business strikes that exhibit qualities similar to Proof strikes. However, the proof-like fields are generally flawed, edges are rounded and are not double struck. Special select is another term for this category.

 

Now Alex’s reply to your post echo’s the description of the condition as found in Krause. You admit you are not a grader, but at the same time can clearly tell from a photo that the coin is proof quality, even with the detailed reply given to your question. Maybe you should point these out to NGC, see what their reply is, and then make a call.

 

 

Hi

 

Have tried speaking to NGC - BUT NGC DOES NOT ALLOW ONE TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THEIR GRADERS!

 

Regards,

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Well said, I just hope that everyone who has a comment to make does so with facts and not emotions, a local grading company is an asset, not a liability, if they need guidance, let’s give it to them, rather than to try and crucify them.

 

 

Hi Everyone,

 

SANGS must still prove that it is an asset to South African Numismatics.

 

My view is that they disturb the data on coins of quality that remain. It is much better to have two Grading Companies that are USA based and far from our small local market . These have no interest in the prices our coins sell for and can give an unbiased grading that has huge international experience as a base.

 

Already after a few months we have seen a Proof Crown miscalled Special Select, clearly cleaned ZAR coins given grades that they dont deserve.These are factual issues and not open to emotion although they may evoke intense emotion in those who have vested interests in SANGS. There is also no clear apology forthcoming.

 

How can we trust a Pop report emanating from SANGS when many of the ZAR coins have been cleaned?

 

A Prooflike 1947 Crown may be worth well over $1000 if it really is one as there have only been 3 graded in the world so far (3 at NGC 0 at PCGS). This can be a big issue if SANGS misdiagnoses a common Proof as a Special Select or Prooflike (same thing).

 

We are asked to 'give them guidance' as you say. Hang on a bit, the founding principle of SANGS is that we South Africans understand and therefore can grade our coins better than the USA third party grading companies. We are also told that several decades of coin dealing necessarily gives a SA grader an advantage over his US counterpart. After several decades and eminent names etc, we must still give them guidance AND pay a fee for this ! It sounds like going to school or university, paying fees and then still having to teach your teachers or lecturers !!

 

Professionalism means too that communication with graders needs to be in writing. They cannot be expected to have chats over coffee (and be influenced) with disgruntled owners - given the value of some coins.

 

I have had Veldponden and Brugersponden graded by NGC for a $19 grading fee plus courier. That is far cheaper than what SANGS charges - see their website.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bok2004
Hi Everyone,

 

SANGS must still prove that it is an asset to South African Numismatics.

 

My view is that they disturb the data on coins of quality that remain. It is much better to have two Grading Companies that are USA based and far from our small local market . These have no interest in the prices our coins sell for and can give an unbiased grading that has huge international experience as a base.

 

Already after a few months we have seen a Proof Crown miscalled Special Select, clearly cleaned ZAR coins given grades that they dont deserve.These are factual issues and not open to emotion although they may evoke intense emotion in those who have vested interests in SANGS. There is also no clear apology forthcoming.

 

How can we trust a Pop report emanating from SANGS when many of the ZAR coins have been cleaned?

 

A Prooflike 1947 Crown may be worth well over $1000 if it really is one as there have only been 3 graded in the world so far (3 at NGC 0 at PCGS). This can be a big issue if SANGS misdiagnoses a common Proof as a Special Select or Prooflike (same thing).

 

We are asked to 'give them guidance' as you say. Hang on a bit, the founding principle of SANGS is that we South Africans understand and therefore can grade our coins better than the USA third party grading companies. We are also told that several decades of coin dealing necessarily gives a SA grader an advantage over his US counterpart. After several decades and eminent names etc, we must still give them guidance AND pay a fee for this ! It sounds like going to school or university, paying fees and then still having to teach your teachers or lecturers !!

 

Professionalism means too that communication with graders needs to be in writing. They cannot be expected to have chats over coffee (and be influenced) with disgruntled owners - given the value of some coins.

 

I have had Veldponden and Brugersponden graded by NGC for a $19 grading fee plus courier. That is far cheaper than what SANGS charges - see their website.

 

Geejay

 

Geejay!!

 

You keep on hammering on the coffee isue in your previos comments you did the same, what is wrong to have a cup of coffee chatting to people when doing business?? Some companys take there clients for lunch, when i started the post regarding SANGS i mention and said: If you go there you even have a warm welcome with a cup of coffee how nice, that is how our SA people do it, it has nothing to do with Professionlism or trying to influence the graders it is a matter of building friendship. Now because NGC and PCGS is abroad and everybody cant just take there coins in person to them, and i am very much sure if we could, they would also offer you a cup of coffee and because of having coffee in you opinion that is wrong!!

I am sure you are a person with integrity born and bred in SA, why are you shooting them down all the time?? I know you know them and maybe its a personell matter and if it is only you would know, please try and solve it. that is how i feel regarding your posts and forgive me if i am wrong but we are a bunch of happy guys proud to have our own grading company and we are all trying to get them off there feet to maybe one day be excepted world wide who knows?? but keeping kicking them on this forum and all to read the comments can either help them or kill them.

Sorry Geejay now offence it is just my comments regarding your negatives and SANGS.

 

NGC and SANGS have made huge mistakes regarding our coins in the past and even recently and that is nothing?? cmonn lets be fair all make mistakes nobody is perfect!!!

 

bok2004

Edited by bok2004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Bok2004,

 

There is nothing wrong with having cups of coffee with friends. This is a multi-million rand issue tied up with high quality coins. The personal issues are irrelevant and all that matters is reliable , unbiassed, accurate grading which merely addresses authenticity and degree of wear common to all coins of the world.There should never be personal contacts with graders to maintain total objectivity in the assessment.

 

Even if you lived in Sarasota Florida USA (Home of NGC), they only accept coins from Couriers. You cannot just go around and drop off your coins and chat to the graders , even if you really wanted to grow NGC as a business as an American.

 

Standards of Grading is a jealously guarded issue and will be defended without regard to status because there is simply too much money and love for the hobby involved.

 

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bok2004

All fair, that is America and they do things there way and i am sure between NGC and PCGS there is also a war out there who is the best, but here in SA there is only SANGS, just starting and trying to make friends with all colectors, nothing wrong with that!

 

People meet each other on coin shows and become friends whether he is a grader or a colector doesnt matter, so whether it is at the coin show or at SANGS you become friends, at the show you will maybe have a beer or a whiskey with the grader in person if you meet him there and at the working place you will have tea or coffee with the same person, that is my argument.

 

NO strings attache just friends and that is to me and i am sure to many out there the warm welcome i have mentioned before.

Taking my coins to SANGS it is SAFE and i have that peace of mind that the coins has been handed over to them in person and by doing that and have a chat or coffee is justy part of the process with NO influence to the grader, might not even see some of the graders doesnt matter it is just the comfort zone to have a chat or coffee, but you are missing the point! i am also talking about the NEGATIVE side from your posts, they say lets take hands and built a nation, help each other and let the sun shine on all of us. That is my point.

 

Try and give SANGS some PLUS points rather as to shoot them down all the time. Dont know if any of your coins has been graded by SANGS, i presume NOT, but try them, go there or send it, you have nothing to loose, can always break it out of the slab and send it to either NGC or PCGS if you are not happy, all i am asking is TRY and be posetive regarding them, not a big issue is it lol?

 

Regards

 

 

 

Bok2004

Edited by bok2004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
All fair, that is America and they do things there way and i am sure between NGC and PCGS there is also a war out there who is the best, but here in SA there is only SANGS, just starting and trying to make friends with all colectors, nothing wrong with that!

 

Regards

 

 

 

Bok2004

 

Hi

 

Correction - SACGS was the first grading company in SA - So we have 2 grading companies in SA - SACGS and now SANGS :)

 

Regards,

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bok2004

Hi Ahmed,

 

yes i know, was meaning a new grading company that is just starting.

 

 

regards

 

Bok2004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
alloway65

I have just Couriered my first batch of Coins to SANGS for Grading....communications with SANGS up to now has been very prompt & courteous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TransEd

Hi all!

Just a comment on this whole SANGS, NGC, etc issue. I figure that those that feel SANGS is not up to standard, even before they've even started, continue sending their coins for grading to the US. Those that would like to see SANGS succeed and would like to support a home grown grading company can send to SANGS. Is that not a simple solution to this matter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Hi all!

Just a comment on this whole SANGS, NGC, etc issue. I figure that those that feel SANGS is not up to standard, even before they've even started, continue sending their coins for grading to the US. Those that would like to see SANGS succeed and would like to support a home grown grading company can send to SANGS. Is that not a simple solution to this matter?

You're not going to solve this one that easily, there are too many passionate coin buffs here with polarised opinions on the matter, debate is important and informative and will eventually quieten concerns one way or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TransEd

Totally agree, debate as well as constructive criticism is important and informative, although I believe everyone should be given a fair chance to prove their worth and from posts that I've read from even before SANGS had started up the criticism was coming in thick and fast, and seriously what for? Just my opinion... Analyse fact and not something that has yet to be realized.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...