Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Xclusively U

SANGS Grading -- Inferior to NGC??!!!

Recommended Posts

Xclusively U

I have just seen in one of the auctions on BoB, where a potential buyer asked what the difference would be between coins that are graded by NGC versus those which are graded by SANGS. The reply to this question was that "NGC is higher grade than SANGS". :unsure:

 

I am rather concerned by this answer. Could someone, anyone, please advise on this matter. I would ordinarily think that SANGS would want to benchmark themselves to a position so as to be on par with international grading systems, and I would like to think that they would aim to be even better as coin graders.

 

Please advise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2

There are always going to be differing opinions concerning graders locally and internationally, I would think that a local grading company would understand grading local coins better than an international one grading our local coins. Seeing as SANGS has not been operating for very long and no comparisons have been made between them and the international group, that statement is really very premature, so I would not let it be an issue until there is one on paper.

I have had coins graded by both and both are very professional and their grading is on par with one another in my experience.

 

Please provide a link to where you saw the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Xclusively U and all,

 

I have been sending coins to both NGC and PCGS regularly for 6 years totalling several thousand. I have often tried to second guess what the US graders will give to a coin in terms of grade or no grade. I have learnt some expensive lessons along the way too and am fairly sure about what constitutes a cleaned coin - at times , NGC has rejected coins as cleaned that were not in my estimation cleaned and have often been able to get them graded at PCGS as they are often more reasonable. PCGS however will very seldom grade a coin that has very clear hairlines. If anybody has such rejected NGC coins that they feel have been harshly treated by NGC and deserve grades, I can give them my opinion. Just send me a PM.

 

So far SANGS has graded some ZAR gold coins with VF, XF and even AU58 grades that are now on the market where I really feel they have been cleaned. The sellers are obviously not going to be critical of SANGS because they have a lot to lose in price.

 

Please look at the close up pics of such coins and even a person with little grading experience can see that there are multiple parallel hairlines with loss of lustre over most of the coin.That constitutes cleaning so YOU be the judge. I have seen what I expected, a rush of particularly ZAR coins into slabs with grades that really should not get those.Short term money will be made along the line but really its like getting a Degree from a University that has no proper standing.

 

 

The initial prices of SANGS graded coins may have been comparible with NGC or PCGS , whether this price strength will continue will depend on how the collector community feels about that grading in the future. At the moment from what I have seen, I am unhappy with the SANGS grading standards and I suppose many will try to shout me down.They started off badly by not meeting their deadline to start and graded for certain priviledged people before that deadline anyway, now their grading has become the object of critique from even newcomers. It doesnt help to name drop eminent advisers/backers of SANGS, its the coin status that is important.

 

I have said before that coin grading to be truly professional must be strictly separate from those who sell. One should ideally have no contact with those who grade - no cups of tea with the graders etc. It is a purely clinical appraisal of the authenticity and state of wear of a coin. NGC employees are not allowed to have collections of coins at all and not be involved in buying and selling. That is a condition of employment.

 

In all these years, I have never lost a coin to NGC or PCGS . Once I left a submitted coin out of the parcel and NGC reviewed their camera footage of all the coins I sent - they were fairly sure the coin was not in the parcel and asked me if it had been sent. I was stunned by the level of their Professionalism. They do 10,000 coins a day from all over the world.I am small fry. They also have a Census report to show you where in quality your coin falls in their database which stretches over more than 25 years.

 

 

In life you often get what you pay for. So too in Numismatics.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U

Thank you Geejay, this is an eye-opener for me. I myself am a newcomer to numismatics, and am still learning. I will be sure to look at coins properly as you have mentioned. Though, as you say, SANGS has failed to meet it's deadline and this does raise questions in as far as it's operational issues (or lack thereof) are concerned. Thank you again.

 

Xclusively U.

Edited by Xclusively U

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U

Hi kyle2.

 

I thank you for your response. I understand what you have tried to explain. I am a newcomer to this, so it's probably best that, for starters, I stick to NGC grade coins? I would have liked to send you the link for that auction, but I see that the seller in question has removed any questions related to my request of him/her to explain what he/she means when he/she mentions NGC coins being of a higher grade than SANGS..

 

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this matter.

 

Exclusively U

Edited by Xclusively U

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Hi kyle2.

 

I thank you for your response. I understand what you have tried to explain. I am a newcomer to this, so it's probably best that, for starters, I stick to NGC grade coins? I would have liked to send you the link for that auction, but I see that the seller in question has removed any questions related to my request of him/her to explain what he/she means when he/she mentions NGC coins being of a higher grade than SANGS..

 

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this matter.

 

Exclusively U

 

Interesting that the seller removed the questions, but anyway, to gain peace of mind as it were, why not send two like or similar coins, one each to the different graders, the results should speak for themselves and certainly give you an answer.

I agree with Geejay about deadlines, I experienced the same problem, but wrote it off to them being new and being inundated with work all of a sudden.

Hope all of the respones give you a clearer view on things, hearsay is not material evidence, firsthand experience is what should make a determination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Hi kyle2.

 

I see that the seller in question has removed any questions related to my request of him/her to explain what he/she means when he/she mentions NGC coins being of a higher grade than SANGS..

Exclusively U

Hi Exclusively U,

It seems sellers of SANGS coins who have those coins in their hands and often much experience of equivalent graded coins done by NGC/PCGS are too scared to voice their own opinions about the quality of those grades and cleaning or not of those coins LEST THEY HARM THEIR POCKETS and lower prices reached at sale. Why would that particular seller delete the question and answer you gave and he/she replied? They also fear backlash from SANGS because the SA rare coin market is small and future submissions to SANGS could be affected in grades of outcome.

 

SANGS has definite SANumismatic Dealer input and they say as much. That is the root of the problem and why we need a Grading Company that is truly free of dealer influence - ie why not leave it to NGC?

 

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U

Thank you again kyle2. I do have a clearer view on things, thanks to you and Geejay. I am definitely going to get similar coins graded by SANGS and NGC. I will post the outcome here.

 

Yes, I too found it quite interesting that the questions were removed so quickly from that auction. I did however receive a reply from that seller. The reply (via BoB system) was: "good day i cant tell you nothing about sangs i dont no them i my self only deal with ngc ......." .. Well, that says it all.

 

Enjoy evening further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U

Well, Geejay, the more interesting thing for me was that this seller was selling SANGS coins, but his (or her) answer to a previous question was that "NGC grading is higher than SANGS". It does raise questions, doesn't it?..:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Thank you again kyle2. I do have a clearer view on things, thanks to you and Geejay. I am definitely going to get similar coins graded by SANGS and NGC. I will post the outcome here.

 

Yes, I too found it quite interesting that the questions were removed so quickly from that auction. I did however receive a reply from that seller. The reply (via BoB system) was: "good day i cant tell you nothing about sangs i dont no them i my self only deal with ngc ......." .. Well, that says it all.

 

Enjoy evening further.

 

Well, Geejay, the more interesting thing for me was that this seller was selling SANGS coins, but his (or her) answer to a previous question was that "NGC grading is higher than SANGS". It does raise questions, doesn't it?..:-)

 

I'm all confused now, my little brain is battling to process this new info, we are still talking about the same seller?

If so, why would the seller

a) be selling SANGS graded coins if the seller Quote" only deals with NGC graded coins"

b) Make a derogatory statement about the grading of coins they are selling?

 

Seems a little odd this whole debacle.:confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U
I'm all confused now, my little brain is battling to process this new info, we are still talking about the same seller?

If so, why would the seller

a) be selling SANGS graded coins if the seller Quote" only deals with NGC graded coins"

b) Make a derogatory statement about the grading of coins they are selling?

 

Seems a little odd this whole debacle.:confused:

 

Well, kyle2, this is what surprised me too.. His prompt removal of these questions/answers from the auction page suggests that he realized that he was shooting himself in the foot with that type of a response!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Well, kyle2, this is what surprised me too.. His prompt removal of these questions/answers from the auction page suggests that he realized that he was shooting himself in the foot with that type of a response!!

 

Perhaps a case of foot in mouth as well, people assume too much and jump to conclusions way too easily, sometimes, a wait and see aproach is best.:amuse:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xclusively U

Absolutely kyle2. I must agree. Anyway, you guys have been a GREAT help.Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Perhaps a case of foot in mouth as well, people assume too much and jump to conclusions way too easily, sometimes, a wait and see aproach is best.:amuse:

 

Hi Kyle,

 

I think the occasional dealer will speak his mind about the grading of SANGS as we have seen and thank heavens for that even if he tries to cover his tracks. In general there is a stony and I think guilty silence.

 

Numismatics will be the poorer if we only allow prices reached and self interest govern what we are prepared to say.

 

There will be much resentment in the future about high profile dealers who have cynically ignored basic grading principles for mere short term profit.

 

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Hi Kyle,

 

I think the occasional dealer will speak his mind about the grading of SANGS as we have seen and thank heavens for that even if he tries to cover his tracks. In general there is a stony and I think guilty silence.

 

Numismatics will be the poorer if we only allow prices reached and self interest govern what we are prepared to say.

 

There will be much resentment in the future about high profile dealers who have cynically ignored basic grading principles for mere short term profit.

 

Geejay

Well said, I just hope that everyone who has a comment to make does so with facts and not emotions, a local grading company is an asset, not a liability, if they need guidance, let’s give it to them, rather than to try and crucify them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Hi Xclusively U and all,

 

So far SANGS has graded some ZAR gold coins with VF, XF and even AU58 grades that are now on the market where I really feel they have been cleaned. The sellers are obviously not going to be critical of SANGS because they have a lot to lose in price.

 

In life you often get what you pay for. So too in Numismatics.

 

Geejay

 

Hi All,

 

It is an excellent idea to have a local grading company to get into slabs Modern coins that are at the moment not worth getting a relatively expensive USA third party grade with NGC and PCGS. That is great for people who just cannot afford the costs and even are now able to make a profit on their coins because of that thanks to SANGS.

 

Its another matter completely to ignore basic faults in especially the ZAR group where we all know there are many impaired coins out there that will be worth a lot more if the gullible buyer market can be DUPED with a numerical grade that tries to hide the OBJECTIVE STATUS of the coin. There are also many who have paid too much for those coins and now have a chance to make some money - albeit under false pretences.

 

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Hi All,

 

 

Its another matter completely to ignore basic faults in especially the ZAR group where we all know there are many impaired coins out there that will be worth a lot more if the gullible buyer market can be DUPED with a numerical grade that tries to hide the OBJECTIVE STATUS of the coin. There are also many who have paid too much for those coins and now have a chance to make some money - albeit under false pretences.

 

Geejay

 

Well as the old saying goes, --- "A coin is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it" It may be worth more or it may be worth less the next time it changes hands, some of us fly into a deal blindly without checking its true value, others will take the time to investigate. If this wasn't true, no-one would make any money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries

Huge Difference in Grades!

 

Hi

 

I attended the JHB coin show and purchased a few coins. 2 coins were submitted to SANGS and I got them back within an hour.

 

1) 1959 5 Shilling

2) 1930 1/4P

 

The 1959 Crown graded by SANGS as SS61 and the 1930 farthing got MS61. I was quite sure the 5 Shilling was a proof coin and not SS so I decided to submit both coin to NCS for conservation then NGC grading.

 

The 1959 Crown was indeed a proof strike and just graded PF65 and the 1930 Farthing graded as MS63 (My guess was MS62 after NCS conservation) at NGC after NCS conservation. One must take into account that NCS or NGC does not accept SANGS graded coins for crossovers and cracked both coins out of the SANGS slabs after asking me for permission to do so.

 

Very interesting... I would appreciate input from others as this is a huge difference in grades...

 

Regards,

 

 

Ahmed

Ewaan Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALJADA
Hi

 

I attended the JHB coin show and purchased a few coins. 2 coins were submitted to SANGS and I got them back within an hour.

 

1) 1959 5 Shilling

2) 1930 1/4P

 

The 1959 Crown graded by SANGS as SS61 and the 1930 farthing got MS61. I was quite sure the 5 Shilling was a proof coin and not SS so I decided to submit both coin to NCS for conservation then NGC grading.

 

The 1959 Crown was indeed a proof strike and just graded PF65 and the 1930 Farthing graded as MS63 (My guess was MS62 after NCS conservation) at NGC after NCS conservation. One must take into account that NCS or NGC does not accept SANGS graded coins for crossovers and cracked both coins out of the SANGS slabs after asking me for permission to do so.

 

Very interesting... I would appreciate input from others as this is a huge difference in grades...

 

Regards,

 

 

Ahmed

Ewaan Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

Hello Ahmed,

 

Clearly your coins received a benefit from being 'conserved' first and then graded again. I have no doubt that the use of the conservation services would benefit the coins you submitted to us at the show. I remember the coins very clearly and I do believe that using conservation services would up their grades significantly as their surface preservation was shocking to say the least and they both exhibited signs of verdigris throughout the obverses & reverses. In order for your post to have any validity you should have graded them before conservation in order to ascertain a true difference between the grades we gave and the grade attainble before conservation and as such your post holds no true comparitive validity due to the coins being conserved first. I do have a question however, could you please explain how you possibly certified these coins in less than a month at NCS & then NGC? I ask because I do know that the conservation services at NCS take at 2 to 3 weeks to complete plus the shipping time from South Africa which is a couple of days plus the NGC turnaround times which we all know are fairly lengthy, would take you well over a month to finally attain a new grade and it has only been a month since the coin show?? Perhaps you could show us some before and after pictures so that we can concur on your claim albeit not valid due to the conservation being done?

Thank you Cheers

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

Edited by ALJADA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
Hello Ahmed,

 

Clearly your coins received a benefit from being 'conserved' first and then graded again. I have no doubt that the use of the conservation services would benefit the coins you submitted to us at the show. I remember the coins very clearly and I do believe that using conservation services would up their grades significantly as their surface preservation was shocking to say the least and they both exhibited signs of verdigris throughout the obverses & reverses. In order for your post to have any validity you should have graded them before conservation in order to ascertain a true difference between the grades we gave and the grade attainble before conservation and as such your post holds no true comparitive validity due to the coins being conserved first. I do have a question however, could you please explain how you possibly certified these coins in less than a month at NCS & then NGC? I ask because I do know that the conservation services at NCS take at 2 to 3 weeks to complete plus the shipping time from South Africa which is a couple of days plus the NGC turnaround times which we all know are fairly lengthy, would take you well over a month to finally attain a new grade and it has only been a month since the coin show?? Perhaps you could show us some before and after pictures so that we can concur on your claim albeit not valid due to the conservation being done?

Thank you Cheers

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

 

 

Hi

 

 

I WOULD LOVE TO POST YOU PICTURES BUT AM CURRENTLY TRAVELLING AND ONLY BACK END AUGUST....Yes I got them done within a month - I actually find that a bit slow :)

 

YOU CAN CHECK OUT THE COINS ON NGC WEBSITE UNDER VERIFY NGC CERTIFICATION... YOU CAN ENLARGE THE PICTURES AS WELL... Yes you are correct that conservation has improved the coins.

 

But the Crown from SS61 - PF65???

 

SERIAL NUMBERS:

 

3630227-001

3630227-002

REGARDS,

 

 

Ahmed

 

EWAAN Galleries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ALJADA
Hi

 

 

I WOULD LOVE TO POST YOU PICTURES BUT AM CURRENTLY TRAVELLING AND ONLY BACK END AUGUST....Yes I got them done within a month - I actually find that a bit slow :)

 

YOU CAN CHECK OUT THE COINS ON NGC WEBSITE UNDER VERIFY NGC CERTIFICATION... YOU CAN ENLARGE THE PICTURES AS WELL... Yes you are correct that conservation has improved the coins.

 

But the Crown from SS61 - PF65???

 

SERIAL NUMBERS:

 

3630227-001

3630227-002

REGARDS,

 

 

Ahmed

 

EWAAN Galleries

 

Hi Ahmed

 

I thank you for your reply regarding the time it took to conserve & grade. I looked at the pictures of the 5 shilling and I would still grade it at best as SS63 even after conservation. Let me explain why:

 

58f5a73c83556_19595shAhmedobv1.JPG.c18dbf91518f0dedcdb178da0d828b9f.JPG

 

If you click on the pictures and enlarge them you will notice I have circled the problem areas on both the reverse and the obverse of this coin. The cheek of QEII is riddled with small pock marks commonly seen on many such coins and the prime focal areas are hairlined to quite some degree. The eyebrow of the springbok is not full and cannot be deemed a proof striking because of this. The reverse is also hairlined in prime focal areas. I would never give this coin any grade higher than 63 because tecnically speaking it is impossible to grade a proof or SS coin higher than 63 if there is so much activity in the prime focal areas.

 

58f5a73c8be8f_19595shAhmedobv2.JPG.6c11e5adb5d5da0b517bd45797ebad02.JPG

 

58f5a73c92119_19595shAhmedrev.JPG.606df7350afc5b7b31bb0d4890e09ae3.JPG

 

Thank you

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
Hi Ahmed

 

I thank you for your reply regarding the time it took to conserve & grade. I looked at the pictures of the 5 shilling and I would still grade it at best as SS63 even after conservation. Let me explain why:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3742[/ATTACH]

 

If you click on the pictures and enlarge them you will notice I have circled the problem areas on both the reverse and the obverse of this coin. The cheek of QEII is riddled with small pock marks commonly seen on many such coins and the prime focal areas are hairlined to quite some degree. The eyebrow of the springbok is not full and cannot be deemed a proof striking because of this. The reverse is also hairlined in prime focal areas. I would never give this coin any grade higher than 63 because tecnically speaking it is impossible to grade a proof or SS coin higher than 63 if there is so much activity in the prime focal areas.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3743[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3744[/ATTACH]

 

Thank you

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

 

 

Hi Alex

 

Many Thanks For clearing up - I totally agree with you on the grade. Please do not get me wrong as I have assured Glenn Schoeman than SANGS will have our full support very soon :)

 

Regards

 

Ahmed

Ewaan Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

Items for sale from EWAAN Galleries on bidorbuy.co.za

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Little Miss Muffet

"Local is lekker":laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2
Hi Ahmed

 

I thank you for your reply regarding the time it took to conserve & grade. I looked at the pictures of the 5 shilling and I would still grade it at best as SS63 even after conservation. Let me explain why:

 

 

Thank you

Alex Urizzi

SANGS

 

Integrity, one of the most important elements necessary in acompany which would grade coins.

Thank you for clearing up some of the questions which have popped up Alex, it is important for all of us on BoB to get this kind of feedback,especially when questions arise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50
Hi

 

 

 

The 1959 Crown graded by SANGS as SS61 and the 1930 farthing got MS61. I was quite sure the 5 Shilling was a proof coin and not SS so I decided to submit both coin to NCS for conservation then NGC grading.

 

The 1959 Crown was indeed a proof strike and just graded PF65 and the 1930 Farthing graded as MS63 (My guess was MS62 after NCS conservation) at NGC after NCS conservation. One must take into account that NCS or NGC does not accept SANGS graded coins for crossovers and cracked both coins out of the SANGS slabs after asking me for permission to do so.

 

Very interesting... I would appreciate input from others as this is a huge difference in grades...

 

Regards,

 

 

Ahmed

Ewaan Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

Hi Ahmed,

 

Thanks for sharing the discrepancy between NGC and SANGS on these two coins.

 

What has not been addressed by Alex for SANGS is how they misdiagnosed the Special Select aspect of the 5 Shilling. if they called the coin Special Select, then there should have been die scrubbing marks in the fields. NGC found these fields to be mirror in appearance as they graded the coin Proof and not Prooflike or Special Select. For those of us who have looked for these die scrubbing marks, it needs a good light and can usually only be done with the coin in the hand , not from pics.

 

I did a posting recently on what NCS can do for your coins especially copper with pics before and after. The improvement in coin grades as highlighted by the pics speak volumes for their expertise, not matched anywhere else.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×