I am almost sure these days most of the Signatures purporting to come from Mr. Mande

[alloway65 10]

I am almost sure these days most of the Signatures purporting to come from Mr. Mandela, coming onto the market, are made by an Autopen!

 

What is to stop a person from purchasing such an instrument and copying the famous signature and selling it as the "real thing".

 

So many of this famous signature that one sees are/appear identical in every respect.

 

However, certain people I am sure would still class this type of signature as the real thing.

 

Food for thought....I really wonder what is the future investment value of these "signed" items!

 

Mr. F W De Klerk must have a sore wrist at the end of the week these days with all the items he signs.

[JohnBenn 12]

"So many of this famous signature that one sees are/appear identical in every respect."

 

I'm thinking the same thing.

[voldermort 11]

I am almost sure these days most of the Signatures purporting to come from Mr. Mandela, coming onto the market, are made by an Autopen!

 

What is to stop a person from purchasing such an instrument and copying the famous signature and selling it as the "real thing".

 

So many of this famous signature that one sees are/appear identical in every respect.

 

However, certain people I am sure would still class this type of signature as the real thing.

 

Food for thought....I really wonder what is the future investment value of these "signed" items!

 

Mr. F W De Klerk must have a sore wrist at the end of the week these days with all the items he signs.

 

Mr Mandela & Mr de Klerk make their living these days just by signing, signing, signing methinks :whistling:

 

What I think most sellers forget to mention are that most of these signatures flooding the market right now are original, authentic photocopies of the original. Not once in a year's worth of signing do you see even a slight slip of the signature. (I know if I need to sign my name 2x in a row, neither signature looks the same) All of these though are just picture perfect.

Future investment value of these items...........bugger all :notrust:

 

All just my opinion, as always.

[ATA STAMP CENTRE 82]

An autopen signature is very easy to detect by anyone with a little experience in handling these 'signed covers".

The ethical sellers will state autopen signature.An item as signed by MANDELA autopen such as the 94 inauguration covers are still very collectible and do have retail value around R1000-R1500 estimated as opposed to genuine signatures which i have personally attained R12 000 for such a genuine signed cover.Their is no problem with selling autopen signatures as long as you state they are signed by autopen.

The problem for the laymen is he will hardly ever have two signed items by Mandela to compare if they are original or autopen or forgeries and will be difficult for most to determine the difference.

As for DE Klerk he still signs fdc on request and and anyone can send him fdc and he will return them signed-All the DE KLERK fdc as sold by myself are genuine handsigned personally for myself by MR FW DE KLERK and anyone can see that these signatures are not the same as he is always in such a hurry that he scrawls his signature very quickly on some modern items he has signed for me.

And he actually loves seeing some of the old inauguration issues and obtruse covers he has forgotten about as it is of tremendous interest to him.

It eventually boils down to your personal reputation and if you are known as an ethical seller then your buyers will believe in you and buy with confidence as they are sure they will not get ripped off.

NEIL

[alloway65 10]

An autopen signature is very easy to detect by anyone with a little experience in handling these 'signed covers".

The ethical sellers will state autopen signature.An item as signed by MANDELA autopen such as the 94 inauguration covers are still very collectible and do have retail value around R1000-R1500 estimated as opposed to genuine signatures which i have personally attained R12 000 for such a genuine signed cover.Their is no problem with selling autopen signatures as long as you state they are signed by autopen.

The problem for the laymen is he will hardly ever have two signed items by Mandela to compare if they are original or autopen or forgeries and will be difficult for most to determine the difference.

As for DE Klerk he still signs fdc on request and and anyone can send him fdc and he will return them signed-All the DE KLERK fdc as sold by myself are genuine handsigned personally for myself by MR FW DE KLERK and anyone can see that these signatures are not the same as he is always in such a hurry that he scrawls his signature very quickly on some modern items he has signed for me.

And he actually loves seeing some of the old inauguration issues and obtruse covers he has forgotten about as it is of tremendous interest to him.

It eventually boils down to your personal reputation and if you are known as an ethical seller then your buyers will believe in you and buy with confidence as they are sure they will not get ripped off.

NEIL

 

Hi Neil,

The problem to my recollection is that sellers of these Mandela signatures do not differentiate or state as to whether they are original signatures or Autopen signatures. Many know what they are selling are Autopen signatures but do not highlight this fact.

 

I must say there are far less Mandela "signed" items on sale now than there was a year or so ago.

 

There were previous threads on this topic.

 

I was not disputing at all that the FW signatures were not original...it is obvious they are original! Hence my comment about him having a sore wrist.

 

Regards

David

[Jacques Kuun 12]

I must say there are far less Mandela "signed" items on sale now than there was a year or so ago.

 

There were previous threads on this topic.

 

 

I was involved in one of these debates - I tried my best then to stop the manufacturing / selling of strange Mandela signed items.

Hello all

Firstly, Neil, I think that all the buyers and sellers on BoB know that you are an ethical person. So my argument is not against you at all.

There have been many instances on BoB where autopen “signatures” were offered as the real things. I think that very often the sellers just plead ignorance.

Even with a so-called certificate, you might be buying a “Claerhout Donkey”. Would you buy an item with a certificate that states: “The item is in my opinion most probably genuine”? The words “most probably” make a mockery of the certificate. Yet, many Mandela signed covers are sold with such a certificate.

I sell many signed covers – all of them with a two year money-back-guarantee. I really think that the stamp sellers should drop this thing about “buyer beware” and they themselves should take full responsibility for the items that they are offering for sale.

I went to the Sandton Fair on Saturday and many thousands of Rands were spent on lots that are destined to be resold on BoB. So I believe that the effect that BoB has on the current RSA stamp market is much bigger than what most of us believe.

Let us highlight (here on the forum) any suspicious item.

Keep well and regards

Jacques

[alloway65 10]

Firstlt, Neil, I think that all the buyers and sellers on BoB know that you are an ethical person. So my argument is not against you at all.

 

My sentiments exactly Jacques.

[voldermort 11]

I really think that the stamp sellers should drop this thing about “buyer beware” and they themselves should take full responsibility for the items that they are offering for sale.

 

The "buyer beware" is run across the entire BoB site, not just the stamp section. If you take a look at the buying policy you will see this.

Incidentally I think most sellers, in the stamp section & elsewhere, whether they stipulate money back guarantee in their ads or not, do actually take full responsibility for their items & will refund on an item if buyer is unhappy, be it a stamp or a glass - unless of course they are fly by night sellers which I doubt any of us are.

Again though, and I have said this before - the stamp section is also capable of bringing out the very worst in people - I have seen certain sellers taking the time & effort in their ads to try to suggest that eg: there is only one known variety on a particular stamp etc, amongst many other things. I think perhaps it should be realised that nobody knows everything that there is to know about every single stamp printed, and to infer that one does is completely wrong.

As I have said here before, 20 years ago most catalogues did not list the majority of varieties & to this day there are still many not mentioned, the high value Natal, Transvaal, BSAC etc etc were not mentioned in SACC a few years ago - does that mean they did not exist before they were recognised in certain catalogues? Unbelievable.

I knew a certain dealer who tried to go into Greek classics, he bought every single specialised book available & got horribly lost - had no idea what was going on, meantime there is one very simple & easy way of distinguishing a forgery from a genuine article in Greek classics which no book will ever tell you about - my point here is that whilst eg: Joe Soap may know a hell of a lot about Italian stamps, he cannot know everything about all stamps as there is always something new to be learned.

If the stamp section were a friendlier place there is so much knowledge that could be shared, unfortunately though it seems this particular section is edged with a certain amount of "I learned this in a book, therefore this is all that is required to be known" & these same sellers/buyers are then wanting to pretend that what they know is all that there is worth knowing and every other seller therefore, must be ignorant. BoB is a huge selling platform with a lot of space for many sellers without having to resort to pettiness.

And as always, all just my own opinion.

[Jacques Kuun 12]

- I have seen certain sellers taking the time & effort in their ads to try to suggest that eg: there is only one known variety on a particular stamp etc

 

Hello Samantha

 

Once again, I am treading very carefully.

 

I have used / am using / will use this term in the future. About ten years ago, I bought (on an open S.Welz auction) an entire run of the SWA archives. These items consisted of complete sheets of proofs and they were recorded / scanned before they were broken up. So I do know what is unique / one of three / one of six, etc.

 

I will keep on listing these items as such – with total conviction. And I am waiting for anybody to prove me wrong.

 

However, when it comes to errors, faults, etc, I cannot agree with you more. We simply just do not know enough.

 

The more we are an expert in any given field, the more we are a novice in another field. I pride myself on my knowledge in certain areas. Yet I hang my head in shame when it comes to Europe or the Americas. When I started in stamps, I thought I knew a lot. Now I know how little I know.

 

What I can add is that the so called “catalogue value” means nothing.

 

I just do not understand your words: “If the stamp section were a friendlier place…”

Please as in please, tell me why you are saying this.

 

Keep well and regards

 

Jacques

Edited June 12, 2012 by dstorm

[ATA STAMP CENTRE 82]

I have not experienced any unfriendliness on the bob stamp section.

There have been some disagreements but always cordially resolved.(jacques can recall one i am sure)

I have new admiration for many buyers and sellers on bob.

In fact i have made many new friends,some really fantastic people who i would otherwise not have had the occasion to meet.

In any business there will be some unpleasantness and jealousy and pettiness and colleagues that speak behind your back and those that wish illwill befall you,but if you handle yourself with pride and honour,these petty incidents,when thay do rear their ugly head on occasion,can this be confined to the "petty trash bin" where they belong.And in my experience whether on bob or elsewhere in the business world the bad incidents are positively outweighed by the good.

regards

neil

[Jacques Kuun 12]

In fact i have made many new friends,some really fantastic people who i would otherwise not have had the occasion to meet.

And in my experience whether on bob or elsewhere in the business world the bad incidents are positively outweighed by the good.

regards

neil

More than half of my circle of friends (as in FRIENDS) consists of “stamp people”.

Edited June 11, 2012 by dstorm

[alloway65 10]

My general experience on BoB as a buyer and a seller of coins and stamps etc is 99.5% positive....a great experience.

 

When I was buying Gemstones there was a few very aggressive sellers who did not sell what the advertized, fortunately one terrible seller in particular has been banned. I don't buy gemstones any more as I used to have return over 30% of what I received.

 

On the coin side also certain sellers do not really know what they are selling...when one make comment to them with advice it falls on deaf ears. These sellers I do not buy from anymore.

 

I find buying and selling on BoB a very favorable experience, especially for me having accumulated a vast amount of collectables over decades......and the Form being a fantastic communication and learning tool.

 

In the 70s and 80s I knew and bought from and sold to most of the Jhb stamp dealers (they worked from shops in those days).....trekking from shop to shop after working hours to buy/sell and sometimes have a few drinks.

 

In those days I also collected good wines now we only drink good wines!

 

Warmest regards

David

 

[voldermort 11]

Hi Jacques

 

 

Here on the Forum is mostly very friendly people who I have had the pleasure of “meeting” – some in person, some I undoubtedly still will meet, some have even said on the Forum they shall keep me in mind in regards to certain chocolates :weeabooface: ......however I was speaking in general terms up above & definitely not about the forum.

 

 

I sell stamps, books, CD’s, LP’s etc and I can promise you that it is only on the stamps where I will get “questions” if they can be called this – not asking anything in particular on my items but more along the lines of telling me exactly what I am selling according to them & stating the simplified catalogue number where they have gleaned this particular bit of knowledge. You might imagine these would be random new buyers stating these recently acquired “facts”.....not all of them, most are other sellers.

By all means if you are unsure of something, ask a question but if you are in the selling section of stamps, you should know better than to imagine, especially in regards to a simplified catalogue, that it can or will tell you everything you need to know in regards to stamps. Is it really only the stamp section that can have this “forward & attack” mentality?

 

 

This is my point, there is very little friendliness involved in the stamp section & then too it is only in this section where you will come across somebody who has memorised something or other from a catalogue, (& most oftentimes a simplified catalogue) – therefore it becomes fact!

Then too, harking back to the quote you outlined above, this was no reference at all to you but I have seen this occur a few times in the stamp categories hence my reference to pettiness.

 

 

My entire point is that as I said, there is a world of knowledge out there that could & deserves to be shared to enable philately to stay alive – yet it seems to me that a lot of the sellers/buyers tend to believe that anything they need to know can be found in a catalogue - if it is not in print it simply does not exist & they most certainly are not desirous of learning anything to the contrary. Thus I can therefore read through the SG Simplified Catalogue & hark – I have suddenly metamorphosed into a knowledgeable seller? Is this possible?

 

 

This was the whole point I was trying to make & most certainly was no reference to you nor the items you are selling – if it seems that way I do indeed apologise :sad2:

 

& as always, all just my own opinion.

Edited June 12, 2012 by voldermort
forgot to add....all my own opinion

[mellowred 10]

Being totally ignorant about stamps and coins, I hardly ever post any comments on the threads, but I'm an avid reader because I have a passion for the historical aspect of collecting both items.

 

With all the buying and selling going on on BoB, there must be several thousand stamp dealers/collectors registered on BoB. Seems the not so friendlies that V is referring to are not regular forum members. I know Jacques has sent out a couple of requests to the "stamp people" to keep the stamp forum alive. I wish more would contribute ... I love reading the threads and then Googling to see what I "think". And, if I ever had an intelligent :wacko: question I would never be fearful of asking one of the regular forum members.

 

But I would never dare ask anything on the coin forum.:cool:

[alloway65 10]

Hi Mellow,

For every question asked and answered we all learn something or it jogs a distant memory!

David

[Jacques Kuun 12]

yet it seems to me that a lot of the sellers/buyers tend to believe that anything they need to know can be found in a catalogue - if it is not in print it simply does not exist & they most certainly are not desirous of learning anything to the contrary. Thus I can therefore read through the SG Simplified Catalogue & hark – I have suddenly metamorphosed into a knowledgeable seller? Is this possible?

 

I agree 100%!

 

My enjoyment in stamp dealing comes from selling items that are not in the catalogue.

 

Keep well and regards

 

Jacques

[alloway65 10]

With the internet who really needs a catalogue these days.:angel:

[alloway65 10]

Re the Mandela "Signature" fiasco, I have been collating some of the purported Mandela "Original" Signatures for a few months...the attached composite picture I put together of two "Original" Mandela Signatures (not Autopen) from different items on sale on BoB some time apart......it must be very difficult to sign such identical signatures without an Autopen.

 

Unless the same item was not sold the first time around and has been put up for sale again....R1 Auctions.....I doubt!!!!

 

Maybe a Generic Picture!!!!!!

 

I did not manage to make the two pictures exactly the same size.

 

Just my view on evidence available!!!!

 

[voldermort 11]

Re the Mandela "Signature" fiasco, I have been collating some of the purported Mandela "Original" Signatures for a few months...the attached composite picture I put together of two "Original" Mandela Signatures (not Autopen) from different items on sale on BoB some time apart......it must be very difficult to sign such identical signatures without an Autopen.

 

Unless the same item was not sold the first time around and has been put up for sale again....R1 Auctions.....I doubt!!!!

 

Maybe a Generic Picture!!!!!!

 

I did not manage to make the two pictures exactly the same size.

 

Just my view on evidence available!!!!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3617[/ATTACH]

 

Truly I have never known a person to have such a steady hand :notrust:

[JohnBenn 12]

Re the Mandela "Signature" fiasco, I have been collating some of the purported Mandela "Original" Signatures for a few months...the attached composite picture I put together of two "Original" Mandela Signatures (not Autopen) from different items on sale on BoB some time apart......it must be very difficult to sign such identical signatures without an Autopen.

 

Unless the same item was not sold the first time around and has been put up for sale again....R1 Auctions.....I doubt!!!!

 

Maybe a Generic Picture!!!!!!

 

I did not manage to make the two pictures exactly the same size.

 

Just my view on evidence available!!!!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3617[/ATTACH]

 

Apart from the second being faded/thin,they are the definitely the same.

[alloway65 10]

Apart from the second being faded/thin,they are the definitely the same.

 

The differences were mainly due to my scanning and Photography...sometimes I photographed the laptop screen!!!:notrust: