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SA COINAGE

SA Union - Queen Elizabeth II - A silent sleeper or not?

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SA COINAGE    10
SA COINAGE

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Edited by SA COINAGE

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

I would rather have the Crown

 

What has been mentioned by some is that because of the low CV and high mintage figures attached to these coins, most were thrown away and/or melted for it's silver value which was sometimes more than the CV?

 

Considering the high mintage figures, it seems as if Queen Elizabeth and her different denominations started to feel neglected because of the above situation and therefore decided to run back to the 1950's in fear of all being melted? Who knows where they are hiding as GEM UNC's have become seriously hard to find.

 

Have a look at the prices these coins have started to fetch. They have been climbing steadily over the last while. For instance look at the 1959 2/6 NGC MS64 that sold for R5000 last week.

 

Graded Coins - *** Only One Better - 2nd Finest Grade *** 1959 Half Crown (2.5 shillings) - NGC Graded MS64. was sold for R5,000.00 on 9 May at 21:31 by Telescopic in Johannesburg (ID:64898504)

 

Any comments? Please shower us with your thoughts on the situation...

 

It is an incredible price if one looks at some prices realised for the 1959 Half Crown on Bid-or-Buy last year ...

 

MS61 = R599.00 // MS61 = R500.00 //MS 62 = R312.00 // MS63 = R556.00 //MS63 = R500.00 // MS63 = R800.00

 

I don't think any 1959 2/6- coins in MS64 condition sold recently on BoB (before the one you mentions) but the latest sale for R5000 was indeed a shock.

 

I would rather pay that amount for the 1959 Crown (5/-) in that condition - it would probably be a better investment . But there is a huge difference between collectors and investors so one never knows what will happen next in our hobby!

 

As a matter of interest :- I know of two serious Union collectors who very recently turned their attention to graded Elizabeth II Union coins of South Africa.

 

Who knows what the future will holds - she does not have many years left as Queen - so maybe after her reign ends, more collectors will pick up on her series?

 

Pierre

 

 

 

 

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jwither    10
jwither

The answer to the original question is an absolute "no" in my opinion. I consider R5000 for a 1959 2/6 an absurd price. I have not checked the census recently but this grade must be a "conditional" rarity for it to have sold at that price. Even assuming that "conditional" rarities are that much more desirable than those one or several grades below (something I categorically reject for any coin), MS-64 is not even a high grade.

 

I doubt that most of those who post here agree with me (since I am not a "cheerleader" for higher prices and I am the only one who gives a "negative" opinion on both current and future prices), but I already provided what I consider to be a reasonably objective analysis of these coins under the "Scarce Coin Watch" topic. I stick by those comments.

 

Some of these coins are possibly scarcer than most believe, but unlikely to be anywhere near as scarce as the census indicates, except as "conditional" rarities, die varieties and "rainbow" toned coins which are the niche specialties which collectors in the United States use to rationalize absurd prices for coins which are otherwise common.

 

Even if only 200 existed in MS for most date/denomination combinations, that is plenty of supply given what I believe is the current demand today. Its only if the demand increases substantially that a generic MS would likely sell for a lot more. But I doubt that this will happen for the simple reason that lower MS grades for QEII are not attractive coins because of the poor strike and collectors are not in the habit of paying "high" prices for such coins.

 

For the better grade coins, which I would rate as at least MS-63 but probably an MS-64, there is some opportunity for appreciation from current levels but mostly only if the coin is bought ungraded first or if bought graded at a really cheap price, like that 1953 NGC MS-65 2/ I mentioned before which sold on eBay recently for $15.

 

Coins like this 1959 2/6 and the 1957 2/ or 2/6 MS-64 which was profiled here before and which sold for about the same price are almost certainly "dead" money at these levels. The simple reason for this is that there are other SA coins which are VASTLY better values for this type of price. And there are almost certainly many more that will ultimately receive the same grade even if the absolute numbers turn out to be low. I have seen many posts and exchanged many private messages with collectors and "investors" who made the assumption that coin "X" was worth price "Y" under the false assumption that the census was complete or mostly complete. I have sold most of these coins I had as soon as I bought them and I expect to buy most of them back for less several years from now. Some I could buy for less right now.

Edited by jwither

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SA COINAGE    10
SA COINAGE

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Edited by SA COINAGE

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jwither    10
jwither

You have several items and questions in your last post. So let me take them one at a time.

 

I do not know what the Hern catalog price is in the latest edition, but whatever it is does not matter. It does not matter because only actual prices represent "FMV" and given the infrequent and low number of sales for most SA Union coins, especially in a particular grade, no one should expect a fixed value point at all. A range makes a lot more sense.

 

The last Hern edition I have is the 2008. In this version, many prices were too low and many others too high. The QEII in "uncirculated" I would say were too low. So were coins like the 1947 2/ and 1931 2/ and 2/6. I believe the 1931 2/ (which is my number #1 coin in the Union series) to have been priced at R15000 in MS and if not, somewhere in that vicinity. It was less than many other KGV dates, which though scarce, at least are available. There is no 1931 2/ in the census at all, much less in MS and I have seen only one ever come up for sale. Given that this coin probably had no recorded (if any) sale at all, where exactly did this value come from? My answer is that it was a guess, basically a number "pulled out of a hat".

 

Examples of issues that were priced far too high included KGV in EF/XF and circulated ZAR. These KGV were priced at more than half the UNC value while we know from actual sales that for Union at least, the multiple is much higher than that, sometimes as high as 10 or twenty times even in a grade like AU-55 or AU-58, much less an EF/XF. It is something I have criticized on numerous occassions.

 

For the examples that you gave, I would not necessarily say that the prices were "too high" but it would depend upon what these coins actually look like. That is something that too many SA collectors seem to ignore based upon the content of the posts I see here and the private message exchanges I have had. All coins in the same grade are absolutely not equal and should not be priced the same.

 

In terms of collectors attempting to use some isolated sale as the new baseline, I agree with you that this happens. I have done it myself. But whether you (or anyone else) should buy or sell a coin in this manner should in my opinion depend upon current market conditions and not just the specific price for a single coin.

 

For example, since in my opinion the price trend for most SA coins is heading lower now, there is absolutely no way I would pay what I consider to be an outlier and exorbitant price for any QEII or frankly, most other coins. This applies to this 1959 2/6.

 

The same applies to anyone who tried to sell me the same or a similar coin for the prices you listed as an MS-63. No QEII except maybe for the 1959 5/ is remotely worth R2000 to R2500. Personally, I'm not willing to pay more than a nominal price for such a coin in this grade because I know I can find the coins ungraded for little money. Maybe somewhat more now than before and I might have to wait longer but I have been able to do so in the past.

 

Any buyer who overpays for a coin like I believe occurred for this 1959 2/6 might find that they are stuck with it for years. I believe this is evident in some of the coins I see now and in the past listed on BoB. I see the same coins listed over and over for what I would describe as absurd and exorbitant prices. And I see the same to a lesser extent on eBay with the SA coin listings there also. I'm not sure if these coins actually sold and if so, at what price, but if anyone paid anywhere near what I saw as ask prices, they have vastly overpaid.

 

I have not been an active buyer for over three years. The coins I bought I did for the purpose of "flipping". At this time, there are selective coins I will consider buying but only if the price is "right". For example, I was the buyer of the 1952 1/2 pound MS-64 from Heritage.

 

For the most part though, as I have said before, I expect to be able to buy most SA coins for lower or much lower prices than either what I have seen recently or those I received for my sold items. The first reason is because I still expect economic depression and contrary to posts you might have read here, coins will not provide any kind of a "safe haven" under any circumstances that I can see. I'm not sure whether coin prices have "peaked" for the current cycle or not, but I believe that what I interprept as the existing price weakness is only a VERY SMALL taste of what is in store.

 

The second reason is that many coins are not as scarce as many others believe them to be. There are quite a few coins that I sold which were "conditional" rarities or near it where the census increased substantialy, though only in proportional terms. Some of these coins are worth more now, others about the same and still others less. For those that have fared the worst, I never believed they were that scarce which is why I got rid of them at the price I did and will only buy them later for less, possibly a lot less if my expectations come to pass. I am in no rush to buy most of these at all.

Edited by jwither

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4kids    10
4kids

This coin was bought for R 450.00 - and I am happy for the seller - see here

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/58724363/1959_Half_Crown

 

I am of the opinion that some of the QEII series coins areindeed sleepers.

 

 

I now have five reasonable high grade sets, one for each of my children and one for myself which I am attempting to continue upgrading. It has it had taken me the most part of 10 years to get together these as I quitely went around from dealer todealer and handpicking each coin under loupe buying every single UNC coin I could lay my hands on.

 

When I talked to other collectors and dealers through the years it was evidentthat almost nobody considered this series as collectable and some even saidthat it was an extremely unattractive series to collect, mostly because of thelow profile strike which some refers to as a weak strike. This series was also heavily circulatedbeyond 1960 and few Gem pieces survived despite the mintage figures. At somestages the catalogue value on this series was equal or lower than the silver content value and for many yearsevery single coin bought over dealer counters ended up with smelters and not ininventory stock. Even in my overseas travels I found almost no QEII coins atany dealer, even they acknowledged melting them.

 

It will be a very challenging exercise for anyone to nowcomplete this series in Gem UNC grades.

 

Conditional rarities for South African coins will alwaysattract high prices as in South Africa most collectors strive to better theircollections.

It isalso worth mentioning that most collectors I know collect to better andincrease the quality of their collections with only a few speculators that buysthe occasional coin for investment purposes. I also do not foresee any of these collections getting their way to theopen market for many years to come with most quality coins securely tied up inserious collections.

 

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jwither    10
jwither

Which coins do you consider to be sleepers and do you have any particular grades in mind?

 

Going back to the 1959 2/6, I have this coin in NGC MS-63. It is one of the few coins I bought on BoB and I did so a few years ago along with a handful of other QEII MS 2/ and 2/6. I am traveling now and do not have access to my home computer with my purchase records, but I know that I did not pay anywhere near R5000 for my coin and I doubt that MS-64 is really much better. Mine has a nice uniform toning on it. My cost (with grading fee) is probably around $60 USD.

 

On the subject of availability, I do not see them advertised in MS in dealer stock often either, but your observations and mine are not necessarily in conflict. My "guesstimate" of how many of these exist in MS is in the range of 200 at minimum for most (if not all) dates and up to several thousand (at least) for the most common which in my opinion is the 1959 1/2D.

 

This "guesstimate" is not "scientific" because I do not believe such a quantification is remotely possible. Though we know that many or most were melted and that most that exist now are not in MS or in better MS grades, in actuality, the difference between what I think exists and what most others here probably believe is a statistical rounding error.

 

Let's assume for the moment that the number is in the vicinity that I believe it to be. What reason is there to believe that with only 200 of each date that they would appear in dealer stock with any regularity? My answer to that is there is none, especially since there is really no incentive for most to sell them given the current prices for an ungraded specimen.

 

What I am describing here for QEII is really no different that what I have attempted to describe for other SA coins (especially KGV) or for that matter, those 1754 Peru 1R pillars I mentioned in a recent post.

 

I have no idea why the current owner decided to consign these pillar coins at the current time or where they obtained them. They just showed up. That is what happens for most coins, probably because most owners are not "investors" and in many instances are not even collectors.

 

What I can tell you about QE II in my 12+ years in collecting SA coinage is that I have seen them often enough where I could have completed multiple sets in MS (mostly in a "63" probably) if I had wanted to without difficulty. How many, I cannot tell you or anyone else exactly because I never bothered to track them that closely.

 

If you follow foreign auctions, you may recall that DNW sold a complete set of QEII in MS in late 2008 and many of these were probably "gem" because they described them as either "virtually mint state" or "essentially as struck" and based upon prior coins I have bought from DNW, likely makes them at least MS-63. I declined to buy them because I opted to bid on other coins such as that 1944 1/ which I mentioned in prior posts. I have also seen individual dates (though not all of them) sold with the same description in lots of as many as TWENTY. These were all 6D and the lower denominations.

 

Otherwise, I have mostly seen these coins on eBay, in the inventory of the few dealers I frequent and occasionally at other dealers or in the coin shows I have attended. The vast majority I never had an opportunity to inspect in person but they were probably usually MS-63 or below.

 

I am also aware that collectors like to upgrade their sets. It's common in collecting especially in markets where "slabbing" is more popular. To me, it just depends upon a collector's priorities. Apparently in South Africa, a disproportionate number of them place a high priority on spending what I would describe as an excessive amount of money for coins in a piece of plastic with a higher number on it, even when the difference between the two is minimal or in some instances, the higher graded coin is inferior.

 

If that is what someone wants, then go for it. I am far more interested in collecting coins that are actually scarce as opposed to grade scarce. I am not impressed by these coins at all and absolutely will not pay huge premiums for them either.

Edited by jwither

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SA COINAGE    10
SA COINAGE

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Edited by SA COINAGE

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jwither    10
jwither
A 1948 King George VI 1/4 Pennie MS65 RED recently sold for USD 410 on EBAY. NGC MS-65 RED (!) SOUTH AFRICA FARTHING 1/4 PENNY 1948 | eBay

Mintage 2414503 Hern's CV(2011) R40.

Did the Buyer overpay????

 

My answer is yes, by a lot. I presume this coin is a "conditional" rarity but big deal. I do not believe that this coin is remotely scarce, even in Red MS.

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Red and Red-Brown SA Copper Coins

 

I think that the terms Red and Red-Brown are just other "labels" for what was used to being called brilliant uncirculated.

 

Has anyone tested the metal content to date to see if there are any differences to the normal "Brown" issues?

 

Has anyone seen, for example, a GRADED example of a VF or XF Red and Red-Brown SA copper coin?

 

I don’t think so because, in my opinion, they are just other terms for lustrous B.UNC copper coins.

 

But I hope I am wrong because if not, it is just a money making scheme thought out by the International grading companies to get more coins graded in different categories ...

 

Pierre

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jicol    10
jicol

Thanks Pierre

That ties in with a question I had on another thread,and did not get a response yet.Does anybody here have a view on this?

 

On the 1932 King George V 1/4 Penny I notice PCGS make the destinction between Blackened and not.NGC only have BN.I have read that the Mint did blacken some coins to prevent confusion with toned 3p's.Is this correct and does anybody know how many were 'Blackened"?

 

Also is this a recognised variety?

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jwither    10
jwither
I think that the terms Red and Red-Brown are just other "labels" for what was used to being called brilliant uncirculated.

 

Has anyone tested the metal content to date to see if there are any differences to the normal "Brown" issues?

 

Has anyone seen, for example, a GRADED example of a VF or XF Red and Red-Brown SA copper coin?

 

I don’t think so because, in my opinion, they are just other terms for lustrous B.UNC copper coins.

 

But I hope I am wrong because if not, it is just a money making scheme thought out by the International grading companies to get more coins graded in different categories ...

 

Pierre

 

You are not correct. I am not familiar with every single copper or bronze issue ever minted, but of those that I know, the ORIGINAL COLOR IS RED unless specifically minted otherwise, such as the SA farthings which were blackened. Aside from South Africa, this is at least true for the US, Canada, Australia, United Kingdom, Bolivia, Peru, Switzerland......

 

For mint state or uncirculated coins, the color change results from the exposure of the coin to the environment. I'm not sure where in SA you live, but if it is high humidity, this will change the color of bronze and copper over time unless the coins are stored properly.

 

For circulated coins, the color change will occur from both the elements but also from the handling. The oil in people's skin alone is enough to cause this change if the coins come into sufficient contact. This is presumably why you will never see a coin in a grade like VF (unless the coin is subsequently artificially changed).

 

I happen to have four 1948 farthings which are somewhat circulated but still red. I bought them on eBay a few years ago as "uncirculated" but none of them are. All are probably in the AU-55 range. I consider this somehwat unusual but of no consequence. I do not believe these coins are even worth the $10 or so I paid for them.

 

NGC or PCGS do not assign the "RD" or "RB" designation to circulated coins. Why, I do not know. I suppose it would be technically correct to do so if it applies. If mine were graded and labeled as such, I could easily see someone else listing them on BoB as "rare" and trying to extract some excessive or exorbitant price off of some unsuspecting buyer. For this reason alone, it is porbably better that they do not.

 

As for NGC labeling of SA farthings, I do not see why it matters. I am aware that some SA collectors attempt to collect one of each color designation. In my opinion, adding a fourth "blackened"designation to the list is both a waste of time and money. I have never heard of any other country with collecting practices which consider a complete set to require each color combination.

 

I happpen to own a 1923 SA "Red" farthing which is in an NGC MS-62 BN holder. The coin is not the traditional red but it absolutely is not the same as either the "blackened" or other brown specimens either. I will be unlikely to recover the $350 I paid for it but I still consider it to have been described correctly by the seller.

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Cold Sea    0
Cold Sea

Hi,

 

Before the actual minting process, the planchets are annealed (softened). Temperature fluctuation during different batches of this process will result in different color tones to the planchets, and subsequent coin color variations. The higher the temperature, the darker the planchet. (It is well known that artificial toning is achieved by heating a coin.)

 

Blackened planchets have been the topic of many a discussion, and it is thought that temperature variations is the most likely scenario. I do not know whether the mint used this process deliberately, but this could be why NGC and PCGS can justify a grade of this type. I stand corrected, but NGC BN and PCGS blackened is the same thing.

 

The metal content changed from 1942 onwards.

 

I also wonder whether the darker coins achieve a better grade than the lighter (red) ones, as the planchets should have been a bit softer (I think).

 

Cheers

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jwither    10
jwither

Actually, I have seen different shades of color on SA farthings, whether anyone wants to call them brown or black. Some are definitely darker than others. Personally, I just do not think it matters how they are labeled.

 

I have also seen different shades of red on coins graded by NGC and PCGS. My preference is for "orange" red, as I consider it the original color though I'm not sure this is actually true. In my opinion, some of the red coins I have seen (with presumably darker red since I cannot always distinguish them that well) do not look any better than other RB I have seen. I would not pay any premium over a RB specimen for these, regardless of the label.

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

That was my whole point

 

You are not correct. I am not familiar with every single copper or bronze issue ever minted, but of those that I know, the ORIGINAL COLOR IS RED unless specifically minted otherwise, such as the SA farthings ....

 

Yes, originally they were, bar the few known issues, all the same color - that was actually my whole point.

 

Pierre

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jwither    10
jwither

Let me clarify my prior reply to your post.

 

Red and Red Brown are not equivalent to "brilliant uncirculated" and if they are in South Africa, I have never heard of that before and never heard it elsewhere, anywhere. In the United States, "BU" is more commonly used with ungraded coins that are represented to be an MS-65. "Choice Uncirculated" are generically considered to be an MS-63.

 

I do not believe and have never heard anyone else claim that the grading companies use different color designations as a marketing tool. With other designations such as "First Strike", "Early Release" or where coin labels include someone's signature, yes. These are marketing gimmicks and in my opinion, a waste of money.

 

The point I was trying to make was with the collecting practices in South Africa for which the grading companies have no responsibility whatsoever. It is illogical to consider a complete set - of anything - to require one of each color because a RD is not a different issue from a RB and neither are different from a BN. I'm not sure how many collectors in SA follow that practice but I suspect it is more than a few. I know of at least two. One is a collector of ZAR who already had an 1892 proof ZAR 1D in RD and BN who was looking to buy my NGC MS-64 RB PL a few years ago to use as a "filler" to "complete" his set. I see no sense in that at all, though it would partially explain why the prices of the 1892 and 1898 ZAR 1D are what they are given how common both coins are in actuality. Both are overpriced for their scarcity versus all other ZAR.

 

I believe the existing color distinctions used by the grading services are valid. The point I was trying to make is that I see no difference whether NGC chooses to add a "blackened" one to the list. Maybe to some others it does. I certainly would not pay even an extra dime for it simply because the label included it and have no preference between those I have owned and the BN with a lighter color..

 

But what also makes no sense in SA collecting and "investing" is the price structure which exists between the various colors, at least in some instances. Prior posts on this forum have covered the 1892 and 1893 1D and various Union coins. The ZAR multiples are more reasonable but the Union issues are more overpriced. Yes, SOME premium is warranted because the coins LOOK better but a date such as the 1923 1D is still a 1923 regardless of the color. The coin as an issue is not remotely scarce. The other dates, except for the 1929 and 1930 1/2D which have quite a few RD in the cencus, are both much scarcer for the color but first and more importantly, for the issue. The ones I have seen for sale are all overpriced versus other Union non-bronze and those such as the recent sales of the 1925 and 1931 RB 1/2D were VASTLY overpriced. That collectors of SA coinage choose to overpay for these coins is not within the control of the grading services either.

 

The only SA RD or RB bronze that I would ever pay a substantial premium for are the 1923 proofs. But when I say "substantial", nothing like the ridiculous amounts I have seen floating around in a few instances, like that 1923 MS-65 RB 1D which purportedly was on offer for R60,000 a few years ago. That is absurd. I would pay more for the KGV proofs in color IF the coin looked much better because there are likely no other KGV proofs in red from any date. This is not true of the circulating strikes. I happen to own a 1923 farthing in NGC PR-65 RB. This coin is fully red where this color exists but it must have been stored in an envelope or maybe an album at some point because there is a "dividing line" where the red ends abruptly. I consider it a premium coin where many other MS RB, and in some instances even red, are not. The same applies to the KGV RB proofs from other dates I have seen. The color is barely distinguishable.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Let me put it as strait forwarded as I can – Copper coins in RD (Red) and RB (Red Brown) does not exist in under MS grades – these “colours” (Red and Red Brown) are for some reason ONLY preserved for UNCIRCULATED and PROOF coins.

Only coins that actually circulated are graded in Brown (BN)

WHY?

It CANNOT be their metal content (Maybe Kobie Venter can help us out here?)

However, afterthought as it might be in your case, I think you hit the nail right on the head when referring to the STORAGE of copper coins over the years, being the reason for their colour change..

What does the USA forums say about this issue for the USA-copper coin colours?

 

Pierre

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alloway65    10
alloway65

The natural characteristics of copper.

 

The natural weathering of copper exposed to the atmosphere changes in hue from the natural salmon pink color through a series of russet brown shades to light and dark chocolate browns and finally to the ultimate blue-green or gray-green patina.

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Cold Sea    0
Cold Sea

Couple of reasons for blackened coins:

 

Storage – Normally end up with a range of colors

 

Overheating during the annealing process of the planchets (planchets left too long in the furnace) – The coin will have a darker color.

 

Oxidisation during the planchet annealing process – lack of nitrogen – the coin will end up with a darker color.

 

The mint issued these dark coins, so storage could not have played a part.

 

The reds are scarce and were most probably not meant as circulating coins. Hern warns against cleaned black coins.

Edited by Cold Sea

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri
The mint issued these dark coins, so storage could not have played a part.

 

I personally think STORAGE is the culprit in this whole saga ...

 

From the generations of owners after receiving them from the Mint originally ...

 

Pierre

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Cold Sea    0
Cold Sea

Hi Pierre, I hope that these photos show a bit of detail.

 

bl2.jpg.cce8161ff4761b96d9145fb62bc2d5af.jpg

 

You will notice an almost greyish color to the first. I agree that storage and handling plays a part, but darker coins were the standard mint issue from what I understand. Blackened coins are sometimes referred to as black beauties.

bl1.jpg.1ac90a2c7a9fe9873196cf22d206b5c3.jpg

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Patricia_Gert    10
Patricia_Gert

Good day all,

 

There are two distinct factors here:

 

Firstly from 1923 to 1942 the mint issued the farthings with a black finish. This was done to aid in easily distinguishing the bronze coins from the gold. These coins did not change much in colour since being issued - however wear might expose some copper colour coming through the blackened surfaces.

 

Secondly normal (i.e. un-blackened copper coins) are Red (RD) when minted. Copper (unlike gold) does oxidise, which result in colour change (other chemical reactions might also occur, sometimes resulting in the brilliant hues visible on copper). Improper storage, handling etc. will expedite this colour change, resulting in a coin turning Red Brown (RB) and then ultimately Brown (BN). E.g. I have some red copper coins with finger prints made many years ago on them, with the fingerprints appearing as brown. That is why you will rarely find circulated copper coins in RB and even more seldom (if ever?) in RD as handling will result in the coin turning darker, i.e. BN.

 

Kind Regards

Gert

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Coin Apartheid ....

 

Improper storage, handling etc. will expedite this colour change, resulting in a coin turning Red Brown (RB) and then ultimately Brown (BN). Kind Regards Gert

 

That’s what I thought all along Gert. Thank you.

 

So now back to my original question - why on earth does NGC (and other grading companies) grade copper coins based on their color that is due to Unnatural causes (eg. storage)?

 

A 1940 Penny in MS62BN and a 1940 Penny in MS62RD and a 1940 Penny in MS62RB is actually the same coin metallically (metaalgewys) and condition wise - the only difference is the way they were stored or handled that changed their color.

 

I think this is preposterous and a money making scheme thought out by grading companies - to get more coins graded - because if you have a 1940 MS62BN you must still be looking (according to them) for a 1940 MS62RD and a 1940 MS62RB ...

Hells Bells --- That is the SAME flippen coin!

 

What will be next? Silver coins graded in W (White) DW (Dark White) and GW (Greyish White) ???

 

I have a 1942 Half Crown in MS62W but am ALSO looking for the 1942 MS62DW and the 1942 MS62 GW ...

 

Pierre

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Patricia_Gert    10
Patricia_Gert

What will be next? Silver coins graded in W (White) DW (Dark White) and GW (Greyish White) ???

 

You forgot the BW (Brilliant White)! ;-)

 

I never thought about it that way, but you are correct - there is not much difference between what happens with the bronze coins changing colour and the silver coins changing colour. Both of these (i.e. copper and bronze coins) change colour due to chemical reactions of the metal with the substances it comes in contact with (i.e. air, fingers, coin envelopes, plastic pouches etc.).

 

However, most of the time it is much easier restoring the silver to its original colour (by using a simple silver dip) than doing the same with bronze. Mostly if someone attempt to turn a BN bronze coin to a RD the coin will end up with some unnatural colour.

 

Kind regards

Gert

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