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geldenhuys1

Fake items on BOB

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qball
I disagree with you completely, 100%, fully, and in total. But as I've said in previous altercations ... it's your site, your business, and your name ... so what do I really care? :nuts:

 

"... as we always say 'Buyer Beware' [of bidorbuy sellers]." :disgusted:

 

Say, while you're handing me my "infraction," who else has some (for similar reasons)? :confused:

 

Why do you always resort to "attacking" people? Makes no sense... maybe we should just ban you permanently :cool:

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qball
You will have the wallet and a copy of my communications with RC re the fake silver Kruger Rand tomorrow before Noon.

 

Thanks, will let you know when I get them.

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qball
I disagree with you completely, 100%, fully, and in total. But as I've said in previous altercations ... it's your site, your business, and your name ... so what do I really care? :nuts:

 

"... as we always say 'Buyer Beware' [of bidorbuy sellers]." :disgusted:

 

Say, while you're handing me my "infraction," who else has some (for similar reasons)? :confused:

 

You seem to tar all the sellers with the same brush... pity, there are many wonderful sellers on bidorbuy (the vast majority). I would love to show you a typical day in our offices and what we deal with... you might then be able to look at it from another perspective and not one of hostility. Criticism is welcome, but as I said, what you propose is not possible currently and we cannot justify employing more staff just to monitor the items sellers list - it is labour intensive, we do not have the expertise nor budget to do this. No site does this and can't for the reasons already explained. I am not saying that we won't act or respond to such issues but there are real obstacles in what you are suggesting.

 

What kind of infraction would you like? :unsure:

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MsPlod
What kind of infraction would you like? :unsure:

Might I humbly suggest ½ or possibly ¼ ??

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Jongleur

You don`t get handed an infraction. You get a penalty for an infraction and others may

have received a penalty for their infractions.

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alloway65
Might I humbly suggest ½ or possibly ¼ ??

 

Very funny....remember we are in the decimal era.......so 0.50 or 0.25!!!!:blush: Indecimal does not sound so serious.

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RISadler

qball, the issue - at least for me - is that bidorbuy is a method of generating income. Problem is that the few sellers hawking their non-existent, fake, counterfeit or stolen items are ... well ... it's best described with a quote from Dirty Rotten Scoundrels: "A poacher who shoots at rabbits, scares big game away."

 

My point is that when out in the "field" discussing/suggesting where people might look for certain items (i.e. on BoB), many express the fear of being ripped off - either because they have themselves had a run-in with a bad seller or know somebody who has gone through the ordeal. Now, not only does that "taint" my integrity - through perceived dishonesty by association - but it also hampers a genuinely excellent outlet for my products and income. Call me a concerned BoB'er.

 

Now, as to my "attacking" people, if you really want to see some then watch me with the local municipality. It is also through "dealings" with them that I just (unfortunately) see "red" whenever a suggestion is answered with a long run-around dissertation of why it is not possible - instead of a more appropriate: "Thanks, we'll discuss it at our next meeting." (Whether or not it is discussed is immaterial.)

 

Whilst I do understand the financial implications of a "screening" system, I feel that there is also a mutual benefit in it for you, bidorbuy and all the genuine and honest sellers. Implementation should really not be that difficult, as the computer does most of the work of identifying suspicious listings. And if done correctly, the computer can be more than 99.98% accurate. For the remaining 0.02% you have the BoB community.

 

However, your statement that "[you] do not have the expertise [...] to do this" settles the matter. I'll not mention it or similar again.

 

BTW, I was under the impression that eBay actually does monitor listings, using algorithms to detect the suspicious and unlawful. As you most probably know more of how eBay functions, I'll concede.

 

In conclusion, for those who have read this far (or those who just skipped to the end), it is my opinion you (qball & bidorbuy) cannot simply wash your hands of responsibility for southbound deals with a simple caveat emptor. Someday someone is going to cotton to the fact that BoB is acting as a facilitator between the seller and the buyer, and as such is liable and accountable - especially since you charge a "success" fee.

 

(For my infraction, I pick a four week ban - got my 4th year LL.B. exams this month. :nuts:)

Edited by RISadler
Speling ... oops, spelling.

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qball

Thank you for your feedback RISadler. We do understand where you are coming from.

 

There will be many times when the answers will not be what you want to hear unfortunately.

 

We don't believe technology can solve this problem. Implementation will be very difficult. The system would need to know what items are counterfeit or illegal, not possible as there are millions of products that can be copied, replicated and counterfeited without a software programme being able to identify this - this certainly won't be possible by simply checking against images and text. Granted there would be a benefit to screening all these products, we are not disputing that. Financially it is not possible - we simply do not have the budget to implement such a system or employ the staff to manually .follow up on all suspicious items. We also cannot employ experts in every field as this is incredibly costly, can you imagine trying to employ stamp experts, coin experts, technology experts, antique or medical experts etc. all have a specialized field and require different training and experience to be able to be called experts. We simply cannot do this, with over 3000 categories.

 

eBay does monitor listings but manually, just as we do. However, we cannot monitor every single listing and neither do they - it is impossible. We do remove any suspicious or illegal items when we do do our checks and random inspections and do act upon such issues. However, as we are not experts in the law and to determine what items are illegal or counterfeit, we cannot always make that call in many instances.

 

Every single site, including Gumtree, OLX, Junkmail, any newspaper classified listing will have to follow suit as they do also facilitate transactions (and verify and authenticate items being advertised), yet are less inclined to involve themselves in any such issues - their stance is one of non-involvement and you have no assistance, we do offer assistance.

 

In our view our terms are clear and legally sound. You as a buyer assume full responsibility for your actions. No one forces you to transact, you do so willingly and voluntarily, at your own risk. The simple "caveat emptor" does and will always apply to these types of transactions and we will defend this legally if necessary.

 

However, we do take steps to try protect buyers:

 

- we do proactively removing suspicious items and perform regular and random checks

- we do remove items reported as counterfeit by brand owners or members of the community

- we do work closely with law enforcement and other agencies to apprehend and prosecute offenders

- we assist brand holders in protecting their rights and have shown a willingness to co-operate and assist when asked

- we have partnered with brand owners, law enforcement, government and industry initiatives to bring attention to these items and have shown a willingness to combat such activity, for example, Microsoft, SAFACT, RISA, FPB, SAPS, brand holders, copyright and trade mark attorneys etc.

- we encourage users to report suspect items and possible illegal activity

 

Here is what you can do as members of the community:

 

- warn others about the items via the rating system/forum etc.

- Don't buy the items (often driven by greed on the part of the buyer) - a bargain is not always as good as it seems - if it's too good to be true, it usually is!

- Use the Spot a Problem link, report the items, contact us.

- Educate yourself as buyer regarding counterfeit products - knowledge is power.

 

I am feeling generous so I won't be banning you. :sneaky::toung:

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mellowred

QBall, you should just employ MsPlod full time.

 

90% of these issues would be resolved and no need for software upgrades. In fact you could most likely sell some of it off. :grin:

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RISadler
There will be many times when the answers will not be what you want to hear unfortunately.

 

Fortunately your last "answer" is a step in the direction I want to hear. :blink1:

 

Anyway, personally I try to educate people on the ins and outs of BoB (and eBay) ... look at the ratings, read the ratings, always search for the postage, always ask what the postage is if it is not stated in the listing, don't bid if questions are not answered, go buy your new Blackberry in a real shop in a real mall, etc. But the few snakes still tempt with alluring apples.

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alloway65
Thanks, will let you know when I get them.

 

It was delivered to BoB yesterday AM so you should have it by now?

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MsPlod
QBall, you should just employ MsPlod full time.

 

90% of these issues would be resolved and no need for software upgrades. In fact you could most likely sell some of it off. :grin:

Hah hah hah blurry hah!!

 

Nobut seriously - I do believe that there are a number of "tweaks" that could be added to the system to deal with the issues.

 

These include:

A programme (software) which monitors "new sellers" (e.g. those with less than a hundred items sold) suddenly selling high value items - the programme would throw up an alert, so at least those traders could be watched from time to time (one could "step" the software so that such traders were monitored even more frequently for any negatives/neutrals);

 

Software which monitors any trader receiving more than a certain percentage of negative and/or neutral ratings over a given period;

 

Software which monitors any trader issuing more than a certain percentage of SNCs during a given period (my suspicion is that some of the shillbidders use this method to avoid even paying success fees);

 

Software which compares contact details (e.g. cell numbers, email ads, postal details, etc.) for all buyers and traders;

 

Software which monitors any buyer buying more than a given percentage of their items from a single trader - set the baseline at e.g. monitoring after first 10 items bought.

 

etc. etc.

 

Obviously, there would need to be various other built in checks and balances, and ways of being able to remove validated buyers/sellers unless they again send alarm bells clanging.

 

I am not a software writer - but having written a lot of different types of programmes (for various aspects of my work) in my distant past - these things are not so difficult to do.

 

One of the greatest challenges to us "citizen detectives" is the misuse/abuse of the discreet listings. Yes, I know that BoB says they have it covered but REALLY! So many things slip past the BoB barriers - why should the discreet shenanigans be any different? As far as I am concerned - and I know this has been discussed numerous times - no item (other than "adult" - s3x toy type things listings, or high end value items - at LEAST more than R1,000 - should be allowed to be listed as discreet.

 

Not one of the R1 crazy auctions should EVER be allowed to be listed as discreet. Yes, a few of them sell for way over R1,000 - but I personally will not bid on anything which is listed as discreet (and I am sure I am not unique). These items will still sell well, and those few who resent the lack of anonymity will fast be replaced by those who are prepared to bid because the bidding is "open" and "transparent".

 

...steps off soap-box, little puffs of smoke billowing from flared nostrils... LOL!

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qball
It was delivered to BoB yesterday AM so you should have it by now?

 

I did receive it, apologies, I have not been at my desk most of the day today. I will send you an email with regards to this. The wallet definitely looks plastic! The silver coins I will have to get back to you.

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qball
Hah hah hah blurry hah!!

 

Nobut seriously - I do believe that there are a number of "tweaks" that could be added to the system to deal with the issues.

 

These include:

A programme (software) which monitors "new sellers" (e.g. those with less than a hundred items sold) suddenly selling high value items - the programme would throw up an alert, so at least those traders could be watched from time to time (one could "step" the software so that such traders were monitored even more frequently for any negatives/neutrals);

 

Software which monitors any trader receiving more than a certain percentage of negative and/or neutral ratings over a given period;

 

Software which monitors any trader issuing more than a certain percentage of SNCs during a given period (my suspicion is that some of the shillbidders use this method to avoid even paying success fees);

 

Software which compares contact details (e.g. cell numbers, email ads, postal details, etc.) for all buyers and traders;

 

Software which monitors any buyer buying more than a given percentage of their items from a single trader - set the baseline at e.g. monitoring after first 10 items bought.

 

etc. etc.

 

Obviously, there would need to be various other built in checks and balances, and ways of being able to remove validated buyers/sellers unless they again send alarm bells clanging.

 

I am not a software writer - but having written a lot of different types of programmes (for various aspects of my work) in my distant past - these things are not so difficult to do.

 

One of the greatest challenges to us "citizen detectives" is the misuse/abuse of the discreet listings. Yes, I know that BoB says they have it covered but REALLY! So many things slip past the BoB barriers - why should the discreet shenanigans be any different? As far as I am concerned - and I know this has been discussed numerous times - no item (other than "adult" - s3x toy type things listings, or high end value items - at LEAST more than R1,000 - should be allowed to be listed as discreet.

 

Not one of the R1 crazy auctions should EVER be allowed to be listed as discreet. Yes, a few of them sell for way over R1,000 - but I personally will not bid on anything which is listed as discreet (and I am sure I am not unique). These items will still sell well, and those few who resent the lack of anonymity will fast be replaced by those who are prepared to bid because the bidding is "open" and "transparent".

 

...steps off soap-box, little puffs of smoke billowing from flared nostrils... LOL!

 

Thanks for the suggestions. We can look into some of these. Most of them we already have in place.

 

We already monitor traders receiving negatives/neutrals over a certain time period.

 

We already monitor SNC's (high SNC's), in conjunction with our shill bidding report.

 

We already compare contact and other details. But this will never validate if the details are authentic, we unfortunately do not have systems like the US where AVS is commonly used, this country is far behind in that respect.

 

Monitoring buyers purchases from a particular seller - this unfortunately gives many false positives, and this will the case for many of these "software" implementations. Not only that, in certain categories where the communities are small and buyers and sellers are well known to each and already have existing relationships, it is difficult to prove shill bidding.

 

We monitor discreet listings and have a report that monitors the bidders. In most real world auctions, bidders are anonymous to each other, online we give you an opportunity to see who the other bidder is. But discrete listings are not actually abused, and we do stop or prevent most of the shenanigans before they happen. But it does help to have members of the community assisting us, as the more eyes there are on the site, the quicker we can re-act and prevent things too.

 

No system will ever be perfect and will never be able to pick up all these things, and we will continually tweak our current set up and reporting to try minimise these scenario's, but automating this to such an extent will cause more problems than the isolated incident of shill bidding or seller's going rogue. What we would do is create enormous barriers to entry for most of the legitimate, honest sellers.

 

Thanks again for your suggestions, they are appreciated.

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HDMI

Be very careful. At 3 suppliers,I saw Dr dre headphones which I compared with mine and couldn't spot the difference in looks,however they were all obtained from Chins. Very good replica's I would say.

 

I could benefit by selling these items,but won't do it since I know they're fake

The same goes for the nicely packaged 32GB and 4Gb Kingston flash drives we are offered daily for dirt cheap.

 

Be alert when buying these goods.

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qball
Be very careful. At 3 suppliers,I saw Dr dre headphones which I compared with mine and couldn't spot the difference in looks,however they were all obtained from Chins. Very good replica's I would say.

 

I could benefit by selling these items,but won't do it since I know they're fake

The same goes for the nicely packaged 32GB and 4Gb Kingston flash drives we are offered daily for dirt cheap.

 

Be alert when buying these goods.

 

And please remember to report suspicious activity to communitywatch@bidorbuy.co.za. With your help we can make the site safer.

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Delicious

So glad i had a 'uh oh' reaction when that Ayron seller offered me a personal offer and i was 5th bidder down. KNEW they were fakes.. (page 1, reason this thread was started)...

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TopShopHop

I would like to mention that I am seeing more and more silver jewelry knock-offs on BOB. They all make use of Chinese Manufacturers who fraudulently stamp the items 925, meanwhile it is plated. I bought quite a few items from different suppliers marked 925 and had them tested at a reputable jeweler, they are far from 925.

 

The most recent seller I bought fake jewelry from is Jade's Jewellery Box:

 

Gold & Silver Chains - Sterling Silver Intertwined Necklace was sold for R90.00 on 26 Jul at 13:01 by Jades Jewellery Box in Johannesburg (ID:106746938)

 

I understand that sometimes the seller can also be fooled, but hell, the moment I received the item (after two weeks of empty promises from Jade and countless excuses, the items were finally sent) I could tell that is it fake. I reported the seller to BOB and will see if she will refund me.

 

Please sellers, confirm that it is in fact 925 or Sterling Silver before advertising it as such. Do your homework, otherwise you will be misrepresenting the item and mislead your clients.

 

Some interesting info and threads on fake 925:

 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/FAKE-STERLING-SILVER-STAMPED-NOT-STAMPED-925-STER-SILV/10000000013770914/g.html

 

http://wordofmouthvintage.blogspot.com/2012/07/fake-sterling-silver-stamped-925.html

 

http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/beware-of-fake-chinese-sterling-silver/

Edited by TopShopHop

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YiaYia1

"FAKE" items seems to be a serious problem. The items are not only on offer on BOB but offered at many well known shops in malls.

 

Outfit on label "ITALIAN DESIGN" then you look further and see this small hidden label "MADE IN CHINA".

 

All this items enter our country legally.

 

Bought a handbag listed as an authentic item. The LV handbag even had a number. I took the handbag to the LV shop that told me that suppliers copy original handbags with serial numbers.

 

To sell fake items as real items are fraud. To prove fraud you have prove that the seller had the intention to defraud the buyer.

 

Selling items rather not use words like original or authentic. I wonder how many people walk into the shop buying items, asking the shop assistant to proof the items is authentic. Dont we buy things because we like the look of the item? If you pay R1.00 or R50.00 and the item is worth more than you paid for, are you out of pocket?

 

Most sellers are on BOB to sell items they believed is worth the money they selling it for. The serious sellers care for their buyers and mostly give great

customer service, by far better than you sometimes get in shops. There are some sellers whom defraud buyers on BOB, but all the sellers are not the same.

Edited by YiaYia1
not finish posting

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alloway65

I think if all fakes, knock-offs & reproductions etc as well as items originating from China were removed from BoB possibly business would be down 80% at least. However that being said I buy most supplies for my medical supply company from China with hardly a quality problem.

 

I think only Philatelic materials sold on BoB are free of the Chinese influence to date.....OK but there we have possible forged/Autopen Mandela Signatures.

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alloway65

Further from my experience on BoB the onus is on the buyer to prove an item is fake not on the seller to prove the item is "original"!!!

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mrmouse

YAY my like button is back ,, WHY cant we have a dislike button as well ( one where you cant see who didnt like your comment )ADMIN, even better a ( Stop speaking K**P button.:ninja: Ok fine a HO-HUM button .just a teeny weeny little one hidden away in the corner .

Edited by mrmouse

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NooNooBug
YAY my like button is back ,, WHY cant we have a dislike button as well ( one where you cant see who didnt like your comment )ADMIN, even better a ( Stop speaking K**P button.:ninja: Ok fine a HO-HUM button .just a teeny weeny little one hidden away in the corner .

LIke Like Like your thinking !!

PS: Also a "What were you thinking ?" button ...

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TaLamia
I would like to mention that I am seeing more and more silver jewelry knock-offs on BOB. They all make use of Chinese Manufacturers who fraudulently stamp the items 925, meanwhile it is plated. I bought quite a few items from different suppliers marked 925 and had them tested at a reputable jeweler, they are far from 925.

 

The most recent seller I bought fake jewelry from is Jade's Jewellery Box:

 

Gold & Silver Chains - Sterling Silver Intertwined Necklace was sold for R90.00 on 26 Jul at 13:01 by Jades Jewellery Box in Johannesburg (ID:106746938)

 

I understand that sometimes the seller can also be fooled, but hell, the moment I received the item (after two weeks of empty promises from Jade and countless excuses, the items were finally sent) I could tell that is it fake. I reported the seller to BOB and will see if she will refund me.

 

Please sellers, confirm that it is in fact 925 or Sterling Silver before advertising it as such. Do your homework, otherwise you will be misrepresenting the item and mislead your clients.

 

Some interesting info and threads on fake 925:

 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/FAKE-STERLING-SILVER-STAMPED-NOT-STAMPED-925-STER-SILV/10000000013770914/g.html

 

http://wordofmouthvintage.blogspot.com/2012/07/fake-sterling-silver-stamped-925.html

 

http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/beware-of-fake-chinese-sterling-silver/

 

I feel like I need to re-bump what is being brought up here. Whilst browsing this evening's crazy wednesday auctions I came upon the listings such as this one: http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/125699388/BALL_SHAPE_925_STERLING_SILVER_EARRINGS.html

 

Taking a look at seller's neutral and negative ratings immediately told me that their "sterling silver" items were not in fact solid sterling silver as their listings would like to make one believe and this was of course why they were happy to continue to list and sell them for cheap on crazy auctions. But it angers me how many of their buyers do not in fact know this and is being duped. I'm sure there's a ton of buyers that raise this issue with the seller and after they are refunded their neutral/negative ratings are removed thus keeping up their positive ratings percentage.

 

:unsure:

 

Is this really the kind of stuff we want on bidorbuy? Giving novice buyers bad experiences and then making them think that the whole of BoB is one big fraud?

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qball

We will be contacting the seller regarding the manner in which she advertises her goods.

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