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geejay50

What can ncs do for my coin ?

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geejay50

Hello All,

 

As many of you are aware, NCS (Numismatic Conservation Services) is the sister company to NGC and is there to improve the quality of a coin without damaging it in any way.No other company offers such a service.

 

The fact that it is a Company that works closely with NGC makes it possible to conserve a coin and then hand it over to NGC for grading or regrading all for a fee of 4% of the declared value of the coin with a minimum of $15 per coin (R120).

 

The obvious question asked is 'Is that service worth doing and will I get a better grade?'

 

The answer depends on the value of such a coin and whether the improvement in Grade or Appearance of the coin will make the market pay more if you want to one day sell that coin.You may not get a better grade though but the coin will usually have a greatly enhanced appearance without losing lustre. The Grade will certainly never go down.

 

Many of us pay a premium for a high grade coin and quite often, the improved grade could make a coin double its vaue or more if that is what is important.

 

i have sent many coins through NCS for conservation followed by NGC grading and recently took before and after pics of two MS Copper coins that looked to me to have ugly deposits on them. Both are high value coins and both have been greatly improved by the added treatment. I will show the 1931 Halfpenny RB only , the other is a 1933 Halfpenny MS63BN where although the grade stayed MS63, the eye apeal of that coin improved greatly. Unfortunately we seldom take pics of coins before and after NCS treatment to remind us of the improvement.

 

All pics were not photoshopped in any way and were taken under exactly the same light and exposure conditions with the same camera.

 

 

I am sure many of you will agree that copper is our most difficult metal to improve using our own methods. NCS seems to do a a really good job for a reasonable fee !

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3115[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3116[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3117[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3118[/ATTACH]

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

Here are the before and after pics of the 1933 Halfpenny MS63BN, definitely the scarcest George V Halfpenny.

 

Although the grade remained the same, the eye apeal of the coin was greatly improved with a lovely mix of blues subtle purple and reds not seen before not to mention the enhanced lustre. The Reverse also showed a white freckling not often seen in copper.

 

The mere grade is often a rather drab way of describing a uniquely beautiful coin.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a73378711_1933HalfpennyMS63BNLogo.jpg.578f5d78b51d4faa7aa53b2bc0d42f16.jpg

58f5a7338cd8f_1933HalfpennyMS63BNObvafterNCS.jpg.0afe590bfddfcb55f208b014cd9a104a.jpg

58f5a7337dc3c_1933HalfpennyMS63BNLogoafterNCS.jpg.deca2e41c84261ca2950659c6a4f243b.jpg

58f5a73382c49_1933HalfpennyMS63BNRev.jpg.b2c76d9cd4b411944e63650f0eb865cd.jpg

58f5a73387d07_1933HalfpennyMS63BNRevafterNCS.jpg.16236acdfebcf8f47da2284b31c3d3f2.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Pierre_Henri

Half Penny 1923 vs. 1933

 

Here are the before and after pics of the 1933 Halfpenny MS63BN, definitely the scarcest Geroge V Halfpenny.

 

 

NCS is doing a great job and I think it should be an almost "have to go via NCS" for high end coins before going to NGC

 

But regarding the 1933 Half Penny being the "scarcest George V Halfpenny"

 

With the possible exception of really big SA dealers like Randburg Coins and Collectors Invest who may see higher volumes than I am, I think that very few dealers (or collectors) in SA go through (sifting) more "raw" Union coins than I am on a weekly basis....

 

I go through tens of thousands of Union coins a year and regarding the Half Pennies, I have NEVER stumbled upon a 1923 date in a "bag full of old coins".

 

The 1933 turn up here and there - but the 1923 date are always nowhere to be seen.

 

Maybe you are talking about scarcity in graded form - but that is another issue?

 

Pierre

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geejay50

Thanks Pierre for your impression of relative scarcity of George V Halfpennies. The graded specimens do tell us of the surviving coins of quality though and that is of interest to serious collectors.

 

A tip to people sending via NCS is that they are a lot slower than NGC themselves at the moment. I always ask NGC to wait for NCS to complete their work and send in one shipment but in fact they often do NOT wait before sending back the straight NGC graded coins.If you are using Fedex as I do, you end up paying double courier charges.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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Pierre_Henri
Thanks Pierre for your impression of relative scarcity of George V Halfpennies. The graded specimens do tell us of the surviving coins of quality though and that is of interest to serious collectors.

 

 

I may be a lone voice in the desert but I have a "broertjie dood" regarding NGC stats vs. the true scarcity of Union coins.

 

"Serious collectors" will find this out with a shock soon.

 

Pierre

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geejay50
I may be a lone voice in the desert but I have a "broertjie dood" regarding NGC stats vs. the true scarcity of Union coins.

 

Pierre

 

Sure Pierre,

 

We all know that there are probably less coins around than the Pop Reports of NGC and PCGS imply because of coins having been broken out of capsules and being resubmitted to either Company. The Pop reports do however tell us what is at the top and give us the best indication of how many of objective quality are around. There are certainly not more than the number given.

 

At least the Grading Companies have no interest in giving a false statistic, unlike those selling.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi,

 

Another super difficult coin to obtain in is a George V 1927 Penny. I have never seen a Mint State Specimen for sale in any auction anywhere. NGC has graded 15 in MS with one in MS65 and PCGS 4 in MS with two as MS65 . It seems they are all well embedded in collections and sales are made by private treaty only.

 

Recently my day dawned bright and after years of looking , I was offered an MS63 Coin. The seller who definitely knows his coins and especially Copper suggested I send the coin for NCS treatment and regrading.

 

I dont have a before picture but if I may share the after picture, you will agree that this coin has lovely colours that I can assure you were not there whilst it had the lower grade especially the Purple. It now lives in an MS64 Capsule.The strike is particularly good too with the whole nasal bridge being visible.

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a7357a7f7_1927PennyMS64BNRev.jpg.c041a34ee88c13005acc7213f73d12f9.jpg

58f5a73570250_1927PennyMS64BNLogo.jpg.9561bfb11929776883ef1b80a37f69cd.jpg

58f5a7357561f_1927PennyMS64BNObv.jpg.efe2420dd9187f36e564e95091fbee60.jpg

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4kids

Hi George,

 

I am very happy that you took the advise to sent this coin for NCS treatment.

 

If it was not already in a slab when I bought it I would have given it the makeover myself.

 

A wonderfull coin in your collection now, congratulations!

 

Jan

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geejay50
Hello All,

 

As many of you are aware, NCS (Numismatic Conservation Services) is the sister company to NGC and is there to improve the quality of a coin without damaging it in any way.No other company offers such a service.

 

The fact that it is a Company that works closely with NGC makes it possible to conserve a coin and then hand it over to NGC for grading or regrading all for a fee of 4% of the declared value of the coin with a minimum of $15 per coin (R120).

 

The obvious question asked is 'Is that service worth doing and will I get a better grade?'

 

 

 

Hi Folks,

 

I thought this topic deserves a follow up posting.

 

We battle to find high grade coins to improve our collections with supplies of new coins of quality becoming excedingly scarce or unaffordable. One aspect often overlooked is that there may be untapped beauty lurking in some dull looking coins already in our collections hidden by some easy to remove deposit !!!

 

Again I have tried to improve some scarce coins through the services of NCS.

 

This time I also sent a few higher value silver coins as well as copper.

 

Again as with the above 1931 RB Halfpenny , the MS62BN grade given to a rare 1932 Halfpenny was affected by what seemed to me to be a deposit, NCS treatment gave a wonderful facelift to this coin with lustre becoming much more striking, the reds redder and what initially was dull black, turned into a dark Navy Blue.The grade went up to MS63BN at NGC and that puts the coin at Pop1 sharing for NGC (only 9 coins in MS- 6NGC & 3PCGS)- One MS64 at PCGS.

 

The silver coins sent were improved where patchy toning was removed like in a 1947 6d but the grades did not go up although the overall eye appeal improved markedly.

 

Below are some examples and the improvements speak for themselves.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a742202e0_19476dMS64RevafterNCS.jpg.8ae88fdb20fdb2c9434cb2ce93340ba4.jpg

58f5a7420b76e_1932HalfpennyMS62BNpreNCSObv.jpg.7289c3a7db71126eb48c3eb1dc99e663.jpg

58f5a74210a14_1932HalfpennyMS62BNpostNCSObv.jpg.b239d9bbc2d68f3104f4ba662b2172f1.jpg

58f5a74215927_1932HalfpennyMS63BNpostNCSRev.jpg.0506054e651fa59f380d29ee091c665d.jpg

58f5a7421abd9_19476dMS64RevbeforeNCS.jpg.79a78cb476ee8377313267417839c646.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Geejay,

 

I have also sent many coins to NCS and the service is well worth it numismatically. On my coins, my recollection is that the grade probably improved about half the time but more importantly, conservation can remove chemical elements which may result in permanent damage. Also, many coins are not eligible for numerical grades without it.

 

On the 1932 1/2d, I presume you mean in BN since the total in MS is over 30.

 

Pierre,

 

The 1923 1/2D may be the scarcest date but I do not see that it is ever going to matter to most unless the number of collectors and demand take a quantum leap from where they are today. Today, there is almost no demand for circulating Union coinage which was the point of that other topic I tried to start but which has received no comment.

 

From what I can see, with a mintage of (I believe) 64,000, the survival rate of the 1923 1/2d is not that high but the number of high grade examples is not unsual for coins like it. I do not recall a circulating example of this coin but I also recall either few or none for any other number of Union coins like the 1948 1/, 2/ and 2/6. I know they exist but it is not entirely unlikely that with some of these coins, that the number of high grade examples exceeds the number of low grade specimens. The same exists with some or even many "low" mintage US coins.

 

The difference between low grade and low mintage SA coins versus those from the US though is that almost no one wants the former but many want the latter. That's why the price struture is as lopsided as it is today.

 

If a collector can only afford a circulated coin such as the 1923 1/2d, I think they should buy it or others like them. But for those who can afford to do so or do not mind spending the money, I would stick with a better coin in this particular instance.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

I have also sent many coins to NCS and the service is well worth it numismatically. On my coins, my recollection is that the grade probably improved about half the time but more importantly, conservation can remove chemical elements which may result in permanent damage. Also, many coins are not eligible for numerical grades without it.

 

On the 1932 1/2d, I presume you mean in BN since the total in MS is over 30.

 

.

 

Hi Ernesto,

 

Yes the BN colour variant of the 1932 Halfpenny is what I am referring to as really scarce. The RB variety is more common in MS (21 RB coins at NGC vs only 6 BN coins in MS).

 

I include some before and after pics of some of the Silver coins sent. They were initially in PCGS capsules and are now in NGC to give more consistency to my collection.

 

PCGS is a great company who give outstanding service and trustworthy grades. Its just that NGC is more favoured in South Africa and PCGS does not offer Conservation unlike NGC.

 

The before and after pics speak for themselves. Again the grades (63) did not change but the overall appearance seems better.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a742346da_18923dMS63PCGS-postNCS-NGCRev1.jpg.fb93eb28ba16cd98d78cbaa5a50112a7.jpg

58f5a742255b4_1923ShillingPCGSMS63RevpreNCS.jpg.fed3ed98b1d4ef36aafa7529cb760ab3.jpg

58f5a7422a93a_1923ShillingNGCMS63RevpostNCS.jpg.057bc2cc632ae450690ff21797bf7ef8.jpg

58f5a7422f589_18923dMS63PCGSRev.jpg.29539103bd3369b4636bb2b586df6097.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi ,

 

For completeness sake I have attached the before and after shots of the 1892 3d NGC MS63 formerly in a PCGS slab.The grade may be the same which is a reflection of very similar grading standards between NGC and PCGS but the eye appeal is much improved. There is a lovely cone of lustre across the bust that was not there before.

 

To get an MS63 1892 3d is really tough I am sure most of you will aggree. These are in many instances, once in a lifetime coins that will not become available again or at a price that is prohibitive.

 

We therefore must consider NCS conservation of the precious coins that we have so that what we have is in its best possible state.

 

So often I see a coin that has a good grade but really the eye appeal is not reflective of that - sometimes the photo has not been taken nicely or there is an unsightly deposit that spoils the aesthetic appeal and hence the price. This is a visual hobby and looks do matter.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a7429207d_18923dMS63PCGS-postNCS-NGCLogo.jpg.89090373d9350743d90e670bace2bfed.jpg

58f5a7428c907_18923dMS63PCGSLogo.jpg.d7b701d529ca2113b7bb491466dabd39.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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EishGK

I must say - your expertise and passion for numismatics has always been a great inspiration to me. These coins certainly have greater eye-apeal after cleaning. I just hope, we dont see other collector breaking out the 'brasso' in hopes for a better grade.

 

Fantastic job Georg.

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geejay50

Hi Folks,

 

A collector in South African Numismatic History who will forever stand out is Dr C Froelich. He was the only person to my knowledge ever to have been able to say that he had a complete ZAR collection (including the Single 9). All I know about him was that he lived in Port Elizabeth in the 1960s and worked as a Medical Doctor. Any further information would be gratefully received indeed !

 

I have been priviledged to have a coin from his collection in mine and that is a NGC MS64 1897 Halfcrown . The person who sold this coin to me in 2006 made me promise that should I ever sell it in the future, I would give him first option.

 

I have always treasured the coin and its pedigree especially and from being finest known shared , it has become second finest known but it has still remained a "sitter" in my collection.

 

The light pink toning was attractive and unusual but I was always a bit unhappy with what to me was a deposit covering a truly exceptional coin especially on the Obverse . I recently sent it for a facelift to NCS followed by a regrade at NGC and would like to share this with you. The grade has not changed but the appearance has.

 

Cheers for now !!

 

Geejay

 

58f5a747437e9_1897HalfcrownMS64FroelichRevafterNCS.jpg.6af3ed9b8d65ada8e41767321782827d.jpg

58f5a7472f1f6_1897HalfcrownMS64FroelichLogo.jpg.96193c87aa99dbca42dde0a9928a6e3e.jpg

58f5a74734a3e_1897HalfcrownMS64FroelichLogoafterNCS.jpg.958f8c5fe10ff57c249e1c4d29bcdfe9.jpg

58f5a74739b97_1897HalfcrownMS64FroelichObv.jpg.9bc8d9eaf6053a05c5420d6179f19a57.jpg

58f5a7473e892_1897HalfcrownMS64FroelichRev.jpg.ad7d03446a6420133491980c262c1b91.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Pierre_Henri

If one look at the first journal of the Transvaal Numismatic Society published in 1955, one will see that his surname was spelled "Froehlich" whilst other sources named him Froelich and Frulich and whatever else ...

 

For me the Doctor will always be remembered as the buyer of the last eleven 1931 proof sets (out of the total of 62 minted) offered by the SA Mint to clients but who nobody wanted in that year because of the depression and very few collectors could afford the asking price of 13 shillings and six pence in those years.

He offered the Mint 12 shillings and six pence per set and they settled on 13 shillings per set for the remaining unsold eleven 1931 proof sets.

His collection was sold in 1970.

Those were the years!

 

Pierre

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geejay50

Hi Pierre,

 

Many thanks for the gems you bring us from way back. That will put many doubts about investing in high quality coins to rest.

 

Its a pity we do not have Numismatic Jourmals to record the movement of such Gems today that our childern can refer back to for guidance.

 

Geeejay

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geejay50

 

 

 

We battle to find high grade coins to improve our collections with supplies of new coins of quality becoming excedingly scarce or unaffordable. One aspect often overlooked is that there may be untapped beauty lurking in some dull looking coins already in our collections hidden by some easy to remove deposit !!!

 

Again I have tried to improve some scarce coins through the services of NCS.

 

 

Hi Everybody,

 

It has been some time since there has been a follow up on this posting and I am sure you will aggree with me that this coin is worthy of being reported on.

 

This 1925 Halfcrown was initially a dirty looking coin that was so ugly,I didnt want it in my collection. It had the high grade of MS61 NGC and I thought if only I could get the black and brown stuff off, it would be acceptable. There are currently 8 MS coins at NGC and 2 at PCGS so it was a really sought after once in a lifetime coin. Ugly ducklings could turn into pretty princes I hoped.I think the grader who grudgingly gave it MS61 dint like it either. Ernesto would call this 'visually unappealing'.

 

Well I sent it the NCS NGC route in the hope of improvement and look what happened, MS64 and standalone finest known.Value huge ???

 

Lesson is ---- Dont give up on the ugly ducklings, you may be sitting with undiscovered beauty yourself. --- !!!

 

I have never had a three grade jump in a coin through NCS though , have any of you? The most up until now has been 1 grade or stay the same. Not complaining though !!

 

Update, in the last 12 hours , a coin has graded MS66 so thereby hangs a tale - finest known is always conditional.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a74ebd7a3_1925HalfcrownRevMS61afterNCSnowMS64.jpg.465cf76735cfd1c2b40b63f077e9ce93.jpg

58f5a74ea4d6c_1925HalfcrownLogoMS61beforeNCS.jpg.3278fde3c01041c5339be5015b57c4ec.jpg

58f5a74eab2f1_1925HalfcrownObvMS61beforeNCS.jpg.eba4e19187cc4d516262430983a611c4.jpg

58f5a74eb1a49_1925HalfcrownLogoMS61nowMS64afterNCS.jpg.b196b319f031cf36445ccff4a4bb02f4.jpg

58f5a74eb77fa_1925HalfcrownObvMS61afterNCSnowMS64.jpg.452cb6ec99a58edf881e2975168285c9.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Congratulations on your upgrade. I think you should consider yourself lucky. From the before image, I don't think the coin was actually that bad but the risk existed that the residue removal would have exposed some unpleasant surprise.

 

On the MS-66, actually this coin has been in the census for almost seven years. It is the one in the Bakewell collection, ex-NEN and prior to that, ungraded and offered by Spink in the 12/06 Remick sale. NEN sold (or at least offered) it for $6600 and it sold for around $2500 in the Remick sale.

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Cold Sea

Does NGC automatically reduce the census count for the MS61 grades with the upgrade?

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jwither
Does NGC automatically reduce the census count for the MS61 grades with the upgrade?

 

To my knowledge, yes. However, it is possible that they do not consistently do so. I also own coins which are not listed in the census today and have not been since I owned them. And yes, I submitted them myself. None of these are Union or ZAR but its equally possible that there are identical errors with these coins.

 

Slightly different angle on your question but I assume everyone here knows that when a coin is crossed from PCGS to BGC or vice versa, the other company will not remove the coin from theirs, at least to my knowledge because they have no motivation to do so. This is exaclty what I told the buyer of the 1933 PCGS MS-65 BN I sold in 2009. They asked me to cross it over and then asked for the label so that they could send it in to PCGS to have them adjust the census. I suspect for this reason that the combined census is somewhat higher for this reason, though not significantly so.

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geejay50

On the MS-66, actually this coin has been in the census for almost seven years. It is the one in the Bakewell collection, ex-NEN and prior to that, ungraded and offered by Spink in the 12/06 Remick sale. NEN sold (or at least offered) it for $6600 and it sold for around $2500 in the Remick sale.

 

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your posting. I have conferred with Robert about the MS66 which was indeed part of the Remick Collection before he bought it in 2008.

 

I have been watching the Union Halfcrown pop report for a while and have my own records written. I must say, going back to the advert of an AU58 1925 Halfcrown I sold in January 2014 (I always copy paste the NGC pop report) I did not see the MS66 coin eventhough it WAS there. I apologise for the omission and any confusion it created. its just that MS66 is so far above the next best which then was an MS63 ,one does not always see it.

 

Well for me pop2 is fine and its a much better looking coin. There are 11 MS coins graded at NGC and PCGS and to answer Cold Sea, NGC did reduce the MS61 number by one after the MS64 was graded.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

Hi Everybody,

 

Some recent improvements in coins thanks to NCS. The 1928 Halfpenny MS64RB is a very noteworthy improvement making it shared finest known of just 4 coins graded.

 

Enjoy your festive season.

 

Geejay

58f5a7518ad42_1928HalfpennyMS62BNLogoPreNCS.jpg.84a58c52498586f787e45c16c2cd6f2e.jpg

58f5a7518fe86_1928HalfpennyPostNCSMS64RBLogo.jpg.ee4ab355c37446db3708606b1fd675af.jpg

58f5a75194f29_1935HalfcrownMS63LogopreNCS.jpg.40045f27bcde7b15b4bdb800cc91fea1.jpg

58f5a751b096d_1935HalfcrownPostNCSMS63Logo.jpg.1294b1a206fd80b5b40b1d01c35c0827.jpg

58f5a751b546a_1935HalfcrownPostNCSMS63Rev.jpg.fb1c8e9ccbfe17650bc2a64fc06358d4.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi Guys,

 

There is a lot of interest amongst serious collectors in sending coins via NCS to NGC in the hope of getting better grades. I would just like to remind you that NCS in their submission form makes this very clear "NCS DOES NOT PROVIDE GRADE PROTECTION OR ANY TYPE OF GRADE PROTECTION OR ANY TYPE OF GRADE GUARANTEE FOR COINS" That having been said however, NGC has recently refunded me market value (Heritage Based) on a downgrade of an 1897 Two and a Half Shillings from MS63 to 62.That refund was duly made with my following submission.

 

It is important for collectors to be circumspect in sending coins that may have been cleaned long ago and retoned but then misgraded by the grading company as gradeable in error. If NCS then uncovers the cleaning lines with their process and the coin then gets assessed as cleaned, the refund must then be made by NGC if NGC did the initial grading.

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

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