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4kids

Ngc - south african coin grading facts simplified!

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4kids    10
4kids

Hi All,

 

I though that some useful information should be presented to all here on the forum.

 

As of this morning the NGC report for ALL South African coins from the earliest to the most recent coins that were accepted and attained a grade with NGC is 231 354.

 

These include all denominations business strikes as well as proof strikes, pattern pieces literally every single coin on the population statistic report of NGC ranging from the lowest to the highest grade.

 

From these statistics the following is worth mentioning:

 

13924 x ZAR coins Graded of which 4769 are graded MS60 and higher or PF60 and higher

 

26592 x UNION coins Graded of which 21 184 are graded MS60 and higher or PF60 and higher

 

129622 x Mandela 2008 Birthday coins Graded, of which 124 591 are graded MS60 and higher, The absolute most commonly South African Coin graded!

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Amazing

 

Hi Jan

 

Strange stats ... looks like 79.66 (nearly 80%) of all Union coins are graded as MS or proof by NGC.

 

And 34.25% of ZAR coins - that is one out of every three Paul Kruger coins is graded as either proof or uncirculated!

 

Amazing ...

 

The fact that 96.12% of all Mandela coins are graded as MS and PF are however, not surprizing.

 

Pierre

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1OO    10
1OO

I am not surprised that most coins are graded highly (MS and Proof) in the total population reports.

I would assume coin dealers would have submitted most of the coins that are listed and therefore would have only sent coins in superior conditions. I think rare coins and the perception of rare coins constitute coins submitted in lower grades.

Edited by 1OO

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4kids    10
4kids
I would assume coin dealers would have submitted most of the coins that are listed and therefore would have only sent coins in superior conditions. I think rare coins and the perception of rare coins constitute coins submitted in lower grades.

 

 

Not entirely correct! The large majority of these highly graded coins were submitted by the collectors themselves. THis also means that the majority of these coins are securely tucked away.

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geejay50    10
geejay50

Hi Guys,

 

That means 56% of all South African Coins graded are 2008 Mandela Birthday Coins.

 

No wonder they are so cheap !!!

 

Geejay

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

So 6% of all South African coins graded by NGC is ZAR (Paul Kruger) coins, 11.5% Union coins (1923-1960), 56% Mandela 2008 birthday coins and the rest (26.5%) "other" SA coins.

 

Now I will take a guess and say that the vast majority of that 26.5% is either 1994 Inauguration R5 coins or Mandela "Smiley" R5 coins of 2000, at least 80%?

 

So that leaves us with only around 5% of "other" RSA coins graded by NGC that is not R5 coins associated with Mandela or his 1994 Inauguration.

 

I have respect for anyone who collects coins, but in my humble opinion, only around 20% of NGC graded SA coins are truly "collectors" coins - the rest are highly speculative sell-them-to-the-next-German (or Japanese)-tourist types.

 

But hey - as long as people collect ANY coins, I will be happy!

 

Pierre

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1OO    10
1OO

In my view the NGC census can be deceiving when looking at the rare coin pieces, especially with low mintage figures.

The census will over time become incorrect as some rare coins are re-submitted several times due to investors

wanting a better grade by banking on grading inconsistency. Eventually you will have a census of 40 coins graded when

only say 16 exist in mintage. This will also create a perception that low mintage coins have a healthy availability in good grades when this is not the case - resulting in a probable price decline. The resubmission of coins is a strategy that can be financially rewarding especially for rare coins (POP1) or grades that get a PF70/Ms70 grade. Food for thought....

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

Mandela R5 coins still holding value.....

 

Interesting that even though all other coin prices have come down certain Mandela coins are still holding value.

 

 

1) Mandela 2008 90th Birthday R5 PF69 still sells for between R20000 - R30000.

2) Mandela 1994 R5 Innauguration PF69 still fetches over R3000..

3) Mandeal 2000 R5 Smiley Face still fetching over R500 in UNC....

 

So the Mandela coins may not be collectibles for certain people... But others love them and only buy coins because of MANDELA....

 

And it is quite obvious that there are much more buyers for Mandela coins compared to ZAR and Union Coins... (PS We Do Not Collect Mandela Coins)

 

Guess everyone has their own passion.....

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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Cali Craft and Gems    10
Cali Craft and Gems

I have two rare coins in my possession that I would love to have graded / checked, but am petrified to let them out of my sight!

 

Any recommendations?

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries
I have two rare coins in my possession that I would love to have graded / checked, but am petrified to let them out of my sight!

 

Any recommendations?

 

Hi

 

We have been through 1000's of coins - and up to date we have never lost one....

 

Do not let others tell you how poor the big companies are - they are great...

 

If a coin goes missing - its stolen (Certain Dangerous Dealers are known for this)

 

If you need assistance we will gladly help you and send coins out fully insured to NGC and fully insured till gets back to you...

 

But do not let others fool you - they will always say Fedex or DHL is poor - its all lies - and this can be confirmed with other big dealers :)

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4kids    10
4kids
I have two rare coins in my possession that I would love to have graded / checked, but am petrified to let them out of my sight!

 

Any recommendations?

 

AND

 

Hi

 

We have been through 1000's of coins - and up to date we have never lost one....

 

Do not let others tell you how poor the big companies are - they are great...

 

If a coin goes missing - its stolen (Certain Dangerous Dealers are known for this)

 

If you need assistance we will gladly help you and send coins out fully insured to NGC and fully insured till gets back to you...

 

But do not let others fool you - they will always say Fedex or DHL is poor - its all lies - and this can be confirmed with other big dealers :)

 

Trying to post anything that may be useful to collectors in this forum is an absolute waste of time with posters that always and without fail hi-jack postings like what happens here. One should think that you would know your place and have manners and respect for others especially being such long standing and highly regarded sellers on BoB.

 

I rest my case!

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4kids    10
4kids

Back to the subject of this thread...

 

Currently there is 2654 "type" South African Coins on the NGC data base. It includes all proofs, MS as well as Varieties such as color variations on the copper coins and so forth. These make up the quantity of 231 354 total coins graded.

 

The top 101 coins in quantity graded coins amounts to 187 082 coins.

 

There are 1191 "type coins" out of the 2654 that has a population of 5 or less coins.

 

Mandela related coins accounts for 156 244 of the grand total graded to date.

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Cali Craft and Gems    10
Cali Craft and Gems

@ 4kids

 

And BEFORE you start jumping down anyone's throat, perhaps you can give some consideration that someone (ie me) actually thought that placing a query within a thread about COINS being VALUATED would not be a problem!

 

It IS on topic - just not 100% the way you want it to pan out!

 

Open your eyes and mind to other individuals out there who have a great interest in the SAME subject! :(

 

(Just because I sell gemstones does not mean I am not a coin collector! I've been collecting coins along with my late grandfather for the past 30+ years thus me inheriting his collection including the two most valuable coins upon his passing!)

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4kids    10
4kids
@ 4kids

 

And BEFORE you start jumping down anyone's throat, perhaps you can give some consideration that someone (ie me) actually thought that placing a query within a thread about COINS being VALUATED would not be a problem!

 

It IS on topic - just not 100% the way you want it to pan out!

 

Open your eyes and mind to other individuals out there who have a great interest in the SAME subject! :(

 

(Just because I sell gemstones does not mean I am not a coin collector! I've been collecting coins along with my late grandfather for the past 30+ years thus me inheriting his collection including the two most valuable coins upon his passing!)

 

Cali,

 

I understand your interest in coins and has got nothing against your gems etc. However this thread has got nothing to do with who can help with valuation or grading etc. I have seen many such threads on this forum and surely if you have been following the coin forum you would have seen them.

 

I now will leave this thread open for people wanting to inquire about how to and who can grade their coins.

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qball    10
qball

Stick to the topic please!

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Say again?

 

I am not surprised that most coins are graded highly (MS and Proof) in the total population reports. I would assume coin dealers would have submitted most of the coins that are listed and therefore would have only sent coins in superior conditions. I think rare coins and the perception of rare coins constitute coins submitted in lower grades.

 

I cannot understand / follow your last sentence saying ...

 

"I think rare coins and the perception of rare coins constitute coins submitted in lower grades"

 

I wish to comment on your post, but cannot understand the last sentence?

 

Pierre

 

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1OO    10
1OO

Pierre,

 

If +/- 80% of coins graded are in mintstate or proof condition then I believe the remaining +/-20% lower grade coins are mostly made up of coins with low mintages or coins that people believe are rare/special based on their assumptions.

 

Why would one send a common coin in a bad condition. Its too expensive. I believe this is the reason why most coins are graded highly, anything else is not worth the time and effort unless its a rare coin. It would be interesting if the AU grades were also included in the statistic.

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

Good point 100

 

It would be really useful for new collectors if a South African coin catalogue (digital or book form) had a colour coding guide on its condition (UNC, EF etc) suggesting which coins are worth grading (eg a 1952 Crown in UNC would not be and a Veld pond in VF would etc..)

 

It must be very tempting for some new collectors to grade just about every old coin in their collection - regardless of condition or value.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri
Pierre,

 

If +/- 80% of coins graded are in mintstate or proof condition then I believe the remaining +/-20% lower grade coins are mostly made up of coins with low mintages or coins that people believe are rare/special based on their assumptions.

 

Why would one send a common coin in a bad condition. Its too expensive. I believe this is the reason why most coins are graded highly, anything else is not worth the time and effort unless its a rare coin. It would be interesting if the AU grades were also included in the statistic.

 

Yes I agree with you.

 

However, here and there one do see "common" coins getting grade in low grades.

 

But for the most part, you are right in saying that most of the remaining coins (the +/- 20% you are refering to) are scarce or rare coins in lower grades.

 

Pierre

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smdevy    10
smdevy

I think what is also relevant in these stats for union coins is that out of all coins graded almost half (47.69%) are proof (or proofflike) and of these proof coins more than 99% are grade 60 and higher. So this would inturn decrease the percentage of MS60 and higher in relation to total number of circulation coins graded.

But … Now the funny thing is, I made a spread sheet at the beginning of January for all union coins graded by NGC, so I could have easy reference and so I can see how NGC population increases over time. My spread sheet was copied and pasted from NGC site for each denomination

… I wanted to comment here on the number of proof coins, so I added a few sums to the spread sheet,but now see the total number of coins graded 60 and higher (MS, PF & PL) comes out quite a bit higher than the total stated from the report. (I have not seen the report, just compared it to what 4kids has said)

I get the following figures: (I have checked and re check my sums to make sure Im not talking $#!%)

 

Total number of union coins graded is 26648 (not that much more than the report figure, so my spread sheet was probably made just after figures were taken for this report)

But what doesn’t seem to tie up is total number graded at 60 and higher comes to 22893 (includes MS, PF & PL)… which is 1709 coins more than in the report, and changes the percentage of 79.66% to 85.9%

Total number of union circulation coins graded comes to 13940 and of these 10241 are graded MS60 and higher and 2973 are graded AU 50 to 58 (there are a handful, not many pattern coins include in these figures as they were graded MS)

12708 are Proof (or prooflike) and of these proof coin 12652 (99.68%) are grade 60 and up.

The most graded union coin of all is the 1923 Penny with 447 graded (includes 443 BN and 4 RB and excludes proofs & only 12 of these are graded below 60) which if I’m not mistaken has the lowest mintage of all circulation union pennies.

The least graded circulation coins with only low grades would seem to be the silver coins from 1931 (all below AU except one of the 2.5 Shillings is AU50)

And the very least graded circulation coin would have to be the 1931 2 shilling as it doesn’t even appear in the listings, so none have been graded (there may be others with none graded but this is one I notice)

So as a new collector there is a lot I’m trying to get myhead around…

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smdevy    10
smdevy
In my view the NGC census can be deceiving when looking at the rare coin pieces, especially with low mintage figures.

The census will over time become incorrect as some rare coins are re-submitted several times due to investors

wanting a better grade by banking on grading inconsistency. Eventually you will have a census of 40 coins graded when

only say 16 exist in mintage. This will also create a perception that low mintage coins have a healthy availability in good grades when this is not the case - resulting in a probable price decline. The resubmission of coins is a strategy that can be financially rewarding especially for rare coins (POP1) or grades that get a PF70/Ms70 grade. Food for thought....

 

Possible example of this could be the 1892 proof 5 shilling, NGC have a total of 23 coins graded (21 x PF & 2 x PFCA) and PCGS have 13 graded giving a total of 36 coins graded. According to Herns 2012 catalog there is only an estimate of 25 proofs minted. Some other references i have seen say 25 to 30. It would be interesting to know if anybody knows of any that have not been graded.

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jwither    10
jwither
In my view the NGC census can be deceiving when looking at the rare coin pieces, especially with low mintage figures.

The census will over time become incorrect as some rare coins are re-submitted several times due to investors

wanting a better grade by banking on grading inconsistency. Eventually you will have a census of 40 coins graded when

only say 16 exist in mintage. This will also create a perception that low mintage coins have a healthy availability in good grades when this is not the case - resulting in a probable price decline. The resubmission of coins is a strategy that can be financially rewarding especially for rare coins (POP1) or grades that get a PF70/Ms70 grade. Food for thought....

 

I do not believe there is any reason to GENERALLY believe that the SA census is distorted by resubmissions. There may be specific individuals who have direct knowldege of this with specific coins because they (or someone else they know) "cracked out" a coin and sent it back in or "crossed" it over from PCGS to NGC, but not otherwise. The generally LOW value of most SA coins combined with the cost and risk versus the low likelihood and potential financial return of an upgrade is the best support for this comment I make.

 

The fact of the matter is that most SA coins are not worth the bother of a regrade, even many of the scarcest. The chances are low and even when it happens, the financial reward is almost always not that great. Yes, in the US there are some "crack out artists" whom I understand make a living off of this practice. But that only works because the market here is so much bigger and the coins are worth so much more.

 

And to whatever extent the census is distorted by regrades, there is more reason to belive it is UNDER stated because many collectors proportionately do not like graded coins. By this I am referring mostly to high grade Union which are owned by those who do not live in SA or maybe the United States like I do. When a coin has an MS pop of two or somewhere less than 10, it is likely that in some or even many instances, there are more coins above MS not in the census than in it.

 

Going by what is known of collecting generally and the composition of the census in the United States, the high probability is that there are in actuality a lot more Union coins to be graded. More proportionately for Union than ZAR, though how many or the grade distribution will vary.

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jwither    10
jwither
Possible example of this could be the 1892 proof 5 shilling, NGC have a total of 23 coins graded (21 x PF & 2 x PFCA) and PCGS have 13 graded giving a total of 36 coins graded. According to Herns 2012 catalog there is only an estimate of 25 proofs minted. Some other references i have seen say 25 to 30. It would be interesting to know if anybody knows of any that have not been graded.

 

This coin is an example but I do not believe a very good one. The reason for this is that the mintage is actually low and the survival rate is high. So assuming that the reported mintage is accurate, we can reasonably assume that because of this coin's value, either all of the 25 to 30 or just below it actually still exist and mostly in grades of PR-60 or better. And because this coin is worth a lot of money, it would make some sense to send it in for a regrade.

 

This does not apply to circulation strikes. The survival rate for SA coins is low and lower for Union. But there is no way to know how many there are of a specific coin or the grade distribution. It is generally known that because of melting and the limited number of collectors especially during the early Union period, that relatively or even absolutely few high grade coins survived in "better" grades.

 

But this does not explain the current census numbers for SA coins, either ZAR but especially Union. This is something I have covered in many other posts on other threads using what is known about collecting generally and the composition of the census in the United States.

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ANTONDIRK    10
ANTONDIRK

Wow Jan, excellent stuff and very interesting. Looks like the "Mandela madness" in coins continues. I bought a lot of R5 coins from Kingcoin a long time ago. Much to my disgust. They were all junk even though he put them in capsules. Some were simply taken out of circulation and with wear and all were put in the capsules. Serves me right. Won't make the mistake twice.

Other "Mandela madness" is on a huge scale from SAGCE where they have Mandela rounds of all sizes in Gold, Silver and Platinum. They make limited numbers and sell them at immensely huge prices, calling them "coins". All they are are some privately struck MEDALLIONS with Mandela's bust. I feel sorry for those who have bought or are going to buy these medallions. They will not stand the test of time. When they want to sell their investment medallions they will never get even what they paid for. Well, that's my opinion - most of the Mandela coins or rounds are overpriced. Dirk

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qball    10
qball

Please stick to the topic. The thread is about grading and grading services, not SAGCE or Mandela coins.

 

Thank you.

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