Does BidorBuy Staff understand CPA - I dont think so ?

[BUYandSAVE 10]

I was shocked reading a email from Bid or Buy Customer support they i must refund a buyer cause CPA says so. Basically the buyer purchased a tv from us , She used it for a week and told me their is a problem with the tv , tv changes channels by itself , We agreed that we will refund because their was a problem. When the tv was been returned we discovered the buyer lied , their is nothing wrong with the tv. TV has not change a channel by itself at all. The buyer lied thinking we will just refund her without checking the status of the tv. We cannot refund a buyer on a used product if their is nothing wrong . I cannot go to Vodacom buy a new cellphone , use it for a week and return it and ask for a refund so why does Bid or Buy want me to refund a buyer that lied firstly and she used the product already. I am very confused.

[admin 4]

Hi BUYandSAVE,

 

Though bidorbuy employees are not legal experts, this is what the CPA, Part C, Consumer’s right to choose, section 16. Consumer’s right to cooling-off period after direct marketing, stipulates :

 

Consumer’s right to cooling-off period after direct marketing

16. (1) This section does not apply to a transaction if section 44 of the Electronic

Communications and Transactions Act applies to that transaction.

(2) To the extent that this section applies to a transaction or agreement, it is in addition

to and not in substitution for any right to rescind a transaction or agreement that may

otherwise exist in law between a supplier and a consumer.

(3)A consumer may rescind a transaction resulting from any direct marketing without

reason or penalty, by notice to the supplier in writing, or another recorded manner and

form, within five business days after the later of the date on which—

(a) the transaction or agreement was concluded; or

(b) the goods that were the subject of the transaction were delivered to the

consumer.

(4) A supplier must—

(a) return any payment received from the consumer in terms of the transaction

within 15 business days after—

(i) receiving notice of the rescission, if no goods had been delivered to the

consumer in terms of the transaction; or

(ii) receiving from the consumer any goods supplied in terms of the

transaction; and

(b) not attempt to collect any payment in terms of a rescinded transaction, except

as permitted in terms of section 20(6).

 

Buy now's are not exempt from the CPA and users that abuse this will be dealt with.

[mellowred 10]

H Andries

 

"Direct Marketing" makes me think that this is when the supplier approaches the buyer? I have little knowledge of the CPA; is there reference to other forms of transactions?

[Miss Jewels 10]

Mellowred, you're spot on! Direct marketing is your typical telephone marketing. Scenario : You're approached by a cellphone co stating you're due for an update and they would like to offer you a new cellphone (obviously you must pay for it). You did not walk into a shop and purchase something of your choice. The same applies to on-line shopping. Goods are displayed and full descriptions given. It is your choice to purchase. The CPA, l as far as I know, does not apply here.

It would be interesting to hear more about the CPA from any forum member who has more in-depth knowledge about this.

H Andries

 

"Direct Marketing" makes me think that this is when the supplier approaches the buyer? I have little knowledge of the CPA; is there reference to other forms of transactions?

[ATA STAMP CENTRE 50]

The CPA was implemented for the protection of the illiterate/semi illiterate masses by illiterate/semi illiterate politicians.

We did need protection form the many unscrupulous business practises taking place in SA SO OVERALL a good thing for the consumer but with so many grey areas there will be changes as the law is tested on certain areas.

The CPA does not specifically take into account e-commerce or online trading so we have to apply the current laws to online trading as best we can.

Firstly auctions-right of return is not covered by the CPA-this means any goods auctioned that you wish to return will not be legally taken up by the CPA.

This is a grey area as the understanding is that at an actual auction you are present and able to examine the goods to your satisfactionand are therefore responsible for the puchase and waive your right of return.Individual rules will apply where certain auctioneers will allow what they wish but not forced by law or the CPA.Now take online auctions also supposed to be exempt from right of return but consumer right no.3 says you may return any item bought not examined prior to delivery?-Grey area!!as most items although photographed and described have not physically been examined by the buyer!!

We as sellers/auctioneers have to delete bids if requested.Unfair to online sellers as at actual auction there are underbidders and the auctineer can then revert to lower bid and then extend the auction and look for other bids to increase the auction again.Online auctions do not allow this as when you delete the bid there is perhaps 2 minutes to closing and you cannot extend your closing time and look for other bids.Inthis case you as a seller must be entiltled to close the auction with no winners and relist at a later stage as this could lead to big losses.

Buy nows-i dont see that buy nows fall under direct marketing or catalogue selling as you are not soliticing the buyers as per the CPA.

But a grey area again as consumer right no 3, says any goods not examined prior to delivery may be returned.

As stated e commerce/online trading is not specifically covered by the CPA and we must apply the laws as best we can.

I basically see it as normal business practise that if you are unhappy with any item be it auction or buy now and you inform me within a reasonable period(7-10 days after receipt)(of course must not be damaged by negligence of the buyer) of the item i will refund the buyer with no questions asked in the best interest of maintaining your positive ratings and a good business ethic.

BUY and save-That would be an interesting test case as you did not sell by direct marketing and the cooling off period does not apply, but then again the buyer did not examine the goods prior to delivery and consumer right no. 3 then gives the buyer the right to return the item.That shows the grey area i mentioned.

Please note the above are my personal interpretations of the CPA and not a legal opinion.

neil

[Miss Jewels 10]

Another hic-up is the following info I've just received from a legal eagle. : The Electronics Communications & Transactions Act of 2002 covers all trading on-line. Under this act the buyer has the "general right to return" any goods. Here he referred me to a well-known online store and suggested we use some of their T & C's as they are water-tight. (please PM me for this info)

The standard CPA act does not have any clause for "no general right to return". The only time a return will be accepted in in exceptional circumstances.

So as this is an on-line shop, the EC&T act will in fact apply and not typically the CPA.

This is not good news for sellers because I may sell a R7000 ring, fully described with relevant pictures, and under the EC&T act, the buyer can return it after 1 week because he has changed his mind! Oh Dear....

BoB..We need your imput here too please

Further to Neil's post above, this also does still apply

[ATOMICSQUIRREL 10]

I might be wrong, but a 7 day return policy should cover all aspects of the trade. Whether out of box failure or not.

Unless stipulated otherwise by seller (fine print)

I have bought plenty products in the past and return them for a refund simply because i was not happy with the product and some where the product was actually broken.

 

Should somebody buy something from me and is unhappy. I will refund no problem, as long as the product returns in the same condition it was sent.

Unfortunately in trade, sometimes you have to pull the shortest straw, but it makes you a better reliable trader and your customer base will grow faster than you think.

 

Regardless, there was no reason for the customer to Lie about it though.:ninja:

[Miss Jewels 10]

I agree fully Vortechz. If I sell something and the item received was not as advertised, I will refund 100%. I will however not refund if I find the item to have been purposely damaged in order to try and obtain a refund.

I think too many people are taking chances with the CPA act and abusing the act for their own means....and this is not on!

[ATOMICSQUIRREL 10]

I agree with jewels, it is harder selling online though then walking into a shop, paying...returning the item and simply refunding.

there are Att costs involved, transport, BOB commissions....etc. and ultimately the inconvenience.

 

Unfortunately the law also protects the dodgy customers. You just have to be more carefull.

 

The thing is that you cant simply just put your own policies down when you sell, because you agreed to Bob's T/C's which ultimately overrides yours.:weeabooface:

[qball 12]

Whilst the term "direct marketing" may not apply, sections 29 and 33 most certainly do - Catalogue Marketing (this will most definitely include Buy Nows). In our view, even if on auction, the item is faulty upon arrival, does not work, or is not as described, the seller must resolve the matter in line with the new legislation. You will get buyer's who take chances, but at the same time, there are seller's that do the same. The term "voetstoots", according to several attorneys we have chatted to, no longer applies.

 

The law will also look at which Act gives the consumer the most protection, so if the CPA does not cover it, they will look at the ECT Act and vice versa.

[qball 12]

If a buyer decides to return an item within this period, (5 Days with the CPA and 7 days with the ECT Act), the CPA does make provision for sellers to charge a reasonable usage or return fee, if the item is as described and then returned by the buyer within this period. This should be made clear in your terms. What is considered reasonable, well, that is a matter of debate, but 10% - 20% have been bandied about.

[mrmouse 11]

I import specialised tools for life support systems , I have service centres that will buy a tool to open one unit fix it close it with the tool and then send it back demanding a refund as the tool is incorrect etc according to them , and unfortunately I have to comply , I know the tool has been used , but can do nothing about it .so I refund and just smile and wave .I dont need a CPA lawyer on my back over a R3000. tool .

[Miss Jewels 10]

Cuan, a question. I sell a diamond ring to the value of R7000.00. Item is 100% described with pics. The client bids and wins or buys it. He then decides he doesn't want it anymore and rather wants his money back. What now? Do I accept it back and refund? What happens if the ring comes back with a cz in it? Now it's a court battle to prove it was sold as a diamond and the buyer states it is the ring he received? I realise there are some loopholes in both the CPA and the ECT act. May I have additional T & C's regarding the purchasing of expensive jewelry. I know that you cannot return a ring you chose, fit on, and purchased from American Swiss or Sterns. Please assist on this.

[qball 12]

Hi Miss Jewels

 

The scenario you mention is highly probable, but the only way it will be resolve is at the NCC or in court with all the facts and evidence presented, they will then determine who is at fault and the required resolution. In your scenario, I highly doubt that the buyer will get away with this. Remember, once you receive the item back, have it checked and tested before issuing a refund. You can also charge a reasonable usage/handling fee, as technically the item is now second hand/used too... the buyer also takes a risk in returning the item and thus giving you an opportunity to examine the stone before refunding, so they won't get a refund unless you confirm the stone is 100%.

 

My advice is to seek legal opinion from an attorney if you are unsure. The comments we make here is our opinion (our interpretation) and not necessarily what will happen in reality.

[TS Ron 10]

I understood from a business that the item has to be refunded after seven days. And they shall refund if the item is in the original state they sold it to the client no scratches or scuffs. Therefore Miss Jewels you would have to take the client to court as they altered the ring.

Nor could some one alter the ring to fit their finger and demand a refund.

[qball 12]

I was shocked reading a email from Bid or Buy Customer support they i must refund a buyer cause CPA says so. Basically the buyer purchased a tv from us , She used it for a week and told me their is a problem with the tv , tv changes channels by itself , We agreed that we will refund because their was a problem. When the tv was been returned we discovered the buyer lied , their is nothing wrong with the tv. TV has not change a channel by itself at all. The buyer lied thinking we will just refund her without checking the status of the tv. We cannot refund a buyer on a used product if their is nothing wrong . I cannot go to Vodacom buy a new cellphone , use it for a week and return it and ask for a refund so why does Bid or Buy want me to refund a buyer that lied firstly and she used the product already. I am very confused.

 

Unfortunately this is an issue of he said, she said, it's your word against the buyer's. Only the CPA/NCC will be able to resolve this issue. Technically, as this was a Buy Now, and in accordance with the CPA, the response from our side is in our view the correct response. The buyer claims the item is faulty and have complied with the requirements of the CPA to get the matter resolved. This would be covered under sections 18 to 20 of the CPA. It would now be up to the NCC to find who is at fault.

[BUYandSAVE 10]

I have just called the offices of The National Consumer Commission Ms Mamodupi Mohlala contact number 012 940 4500 and I confirm their has to be some sort of defect or the product is not doing its intended purpose . You cannot just buy stuff willy nilly use it and return them willy nilly within 7 days . No Business will survive if that was the case.

[qball 12]

I have just called the offices of The National Consumer Commission Ms Mamodupi Mohlala contact number 012 940 4500 and I confirm their has to be some sort of defect or the product is not doing its intended purpose . You cannot just buy stuff willy nilly use it and return them willy nilly within 7 days . No Business will survive if that was the case.

 

Granted, but that is not the buyer's complaint. They claim the item was changing channels at will, randomly, thus indicating there is a fault. Again, this would need to be proven by the buyer if they take it to the NCC, and you would have to prove otherwise. We simply work on the details provided to us at the time and in line with what the CPA requires.

[BUYandSAVE 10]

I think their might be a ghost at the buyers house changing the channels at random anyways i called the buyer and we came to a amicable resolution to refund and move on. I just want to be clear on CPA , think i got a better understanding after this ordeal.