The Need for an ethics committee - Yes or No

[KWALITY STAMPS 10]

I have decided to copy what I wrote last night in aniother discussion forum and start a new post as i feel we need to tackle this as an issue in a very seriious way.

 

This is what I wrote last night, and i do apologize if it seems that I am attacking anyone, but I am not. As a new delaer and collector, I feel that it is important for me to want to keep this passion that I have buko=ilt for stamps for many many years, and in relation to another comment made by dstorm, yes, a whole new wave of buyers under the age of 45 have entered the market, that means they will be hopefully buying for a very long time and not stop because they have been ripped off by some bad buys.

 

This is what I wrote.

 

Wednesday R1 crazy auction is turning into a joke

 

I have to agree with seahorsefanatic and say that the Wednesday auction is turning into a joke. I am considering cutting down my Wednesday listings because i cannot compete with the amount of xxxx that is now being listed. I have brought up this issue before in another post and no one has replied. I think bidorbuy needs to close off the Wednesday listings earlier so that dealers can't come in on a Wednesday morning and shove 100+ items. I went on on Tuesday and their was +200 items, by Wednesday that number had jumped to 319, with the majority coming from 1 dealer and most of it was bad stuff sold at extremely high CV's. My 23 listings, which i paid quite a sum for to try and list on the 1st page was suddenly lost and i had clients phoning, asking why had i taken off some of the items.(yes I know I am bitching). but even as a buyer, i don;t like the look of the Wednesday sales anymore. I remember when I first started buying, (competing against seahorsefanatic and so on) it used to be fun, their was so much goods stuff, very little xxxx. i used to really enjoy trying to get items. Now days, if i have to troll through 7 pages to find some items of value, i am not interested. All this stuff that is being sold off as high value and you can see a mile away that it is charity box stuff. I mean, really, even bidorbuy should be concerned about the long term effects of this. Good sellers are going to stop selling, because it is not worth it, and all the potential long term buyers, will stop buying, because they feel that all dealers are ripping them off. And this raises another issue, how will a buyer know what is genuinely an investment piece that he/she should pay handsomely for, and xxxx that he/she should only pay r1 for.

 

maybe bidorbuy can help with this, but i agree, we need some sort of quality control, most buyers believe that the stamps they are buying is going to appreciate in time, and so it should, it it is quality. This is a long term plan, not the short sighted let's make a quick buck and forget about tomorrow plan. We need bidorbuy's buy in. I feel, as do others, a sort of committee needs to be set up, and I know that we have volunteers who will help with this. to manage the items being put on, not saying that they should manage every one, but when a bad item is put up and is offered as a good high investment piece, a committee could put a stop to it, this way, it is not bidorbuy saying to every person, "show us the proof", and their will be no hidden agendas, because a committee, and not 1 person will be responsible for making that decision. It is extremely difficult for bidorbuy to manage the stamps on their own, this is thousand of small items, they should feel free to use the expertise that comes with some of the dealers. Some with over 20 years of experience. Maybe bidorbuy could reply to this, sit down with some of the dealers and come up with a plan.

 

I hope that this time, these discussions will lead to more people responding, this is not a personal attack, but come on, let's do something before it is too late. Recently a coin dealer asked me how stamps works, as a coin dealer, if a coin is cataloged at R10 000, he would sell it for close to that amount and sometimes even more. Yet with stamps, it can be cataloged at R10 000 and only sell for a hundred. I had to explain to him, the concept of missing perfs, bad cancellations and so on. but then again, what is the difference between a good stamp and a bad one, when buyers are so used to paying the same price for both... (something to think about).

[seahorsefanatic 10]

the need for an ethics committee

 

Bravo to Savo - I agree with you the whole way. Ethics is something that you cannot compromise on. The abuse needs to be tackled head on. We cannot take the attitude that these dealers will be eventually exposed and will eventually loose business and will eventually move elsewhere and the confidence of buyers will eventually.......... eventually is not quick enough.

 

If one can see the damage coming, complacency is a poor excuse and a cousin to complicity. This will be seen as pro-active and not re-active

[Mad about Jack 10]

Hi all to add to the Wednesday auction debate....certain items have already started prior to Wednesday and only have a closing time on the Wednesday so there is already a much higher (starting)price

[Jacques Kuun 10]

Hello Savo

 

Thanks for your passion and tenacity regarding the matter. I fully agree with you and the Seahorse.

 

There are enough competent, experienced and ethical sellers and BUYERS on BidorBuy to make this a reality.

 

However, I feel that we can post and discuss until we are blue in the face. BidorBuy will have to be involved in order for anything to be accomplished. I cannot see that happening. In the mean time things will just carry on as normal.

 

Regards

 

Jacques

[AngelaBraun 10]

I agree with you Savo, despite the innuendo's written about me by seahorsefanatic which I will deal with.

[gabriel 1 11]

What am I supposed to say?

 

Gabriel1

[gabriel 1 11]

Wait, I thought of something. I disagree that BoB has to be involved, from what I have read they are reluctant. We as Forum members need to take ownership of this project.

 

This might sound corny but here goes

 

"Give a man a fish and he feeds himself for a day. Teach a man to fish and he feeds himself for a life time"

 

Dave, I know that this is eventual but what choice do we have, keep plying the forum with info and things will change.

 

Regards

Gabriel1

[qball 12]

Hi All

 

Unfortunately bidorbuy cannot be involved, we are not experts in any field nor do we wish to be. We also have to remain impartial. As with other categories like Coins and Gemstones, they have an understanding of what is required regarding these issues, and use the forum effectively in many cases to "guide" new users about what is right and ethical.

 

Without proof that a user has done anything wrong we cannot take action against them and we certainly cannot act on hearsay. We support efforts by the community to use the forum to educate new users, but we cannot be involved in an organisation or committee as this can lead to complaints about bias and fairness. I agree with gabriel1 - If you persist with the education of the users this will yield far better results in the long term. We will continue to regulate our site according to our policies and where there has been proven misrepresentation of an item, only then can we act against the user.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

[Jacques Kuun 10]

Hello Cuan

 

Thanks for your time taken and your effort to reply. It is highly appreciated.

 

Please note, this post is not confrontational, I simply need some advice from you.

 

I quote from your post:

 

Without proof that a user has done anything wrong we cannot take action against them and we certainly cannot act on hearsay.

 

How do we go about proving that some items are misdecribed?

 

For example, on past Wednesday there was a stamp which according to the seller has a market value of R7000-00. This stamp will retail for no more than R100-00 if correctly described. I am not for one minute saying that the seller is dishonest, maybe he just do not understand what he is selling! I can provide a link with your approval.

 

What are we to do if we see similar items listed on future auctions? How do we provide the proof?

 

Thanks again and regards

 

Jacques

[seahorsefanatic 10]

THE NEED FOR AN ETHICS COMMITTEE

 

I think the only way forward if BoB do not have the expertise or wish to support a committee to protect buyers ans sellers we would need to start with education. This can be beneficial both ways as we can all learn what is acceptable to market from the product side and what is acceptable information given to descibe a lot.

 

Much information can be gleened from the Stanley Gibbons catalogue and no doubt from others ( Michel, Scott,etc ) A starting point is condition of the material concerned and this can be comunicated direct to all sellers who can then add in their own input. Condition has a very direct impact on the value of the item and will guide the buyers as well. If a buyer is advised correctly from the begining on the condition of what he is buying and he/she still pays more then good lick to the seller.

 

Examples can be given of what constitutes superb,very fine, fine, average and poor. Then instead of stating that the item in question is catalogued at such and such a value when it is not due to its condition, the seller could state that the item(s) have faults and should it have been in perfect condition then it WOULD be worth X amount. Inforn the buyer of the faults and not just the good points.

 

One cannot equate a car in bad condition with high milage with one in perfect condition and low milage. The difference is obvious. If the car with low milage and good condition was valued at R100,000 why should the inferior vehicle be valued the same ? Why not say to the prospective buyer that the car with high milage and poor condition is worth R100,000 ? Because it would be unethical and fraudulent to do so - thats why.

 

So, in summary if BoB is unable to get involved because of the free market or the lack of knowledge then lets educate and learn at the same time.

[qball 12]

Hi All

 

Proof is a copy of the catalogue page for that item where it states the market price or value, that should suffice as proof of market values, we can then warn the seller or possibly remove the item. Without that we cannot assume that the seller is acting fraudulently or is perhaps misinformed. Please be careful when accusing people without the necessary documentation and evidence to support the claim. Please also note, many valuations are subjective and it is also the buyers responsibility to research the item, especially if it is highly valued and expensive. Willing seller, willing buyer is the saying most often used.

 

We can try remove these items and warn sellers etc. but if you feel you have been defrauded or the item has been misrepresented, you will need to take legal action (open a case) against the seller and if it goes to court and the seller is found guilty of the offense they will be banned from the site and will have a criminal record against their name - so please ensure you have valid grounds to take these steps. We will assist the authorities in their investigations and provide all the records they need in order to build a case against the suspected fraudster.

 

Generally speaking these can be difficult things to prove, that is why we do not act on assumptions, hearsay or opinions. We must have facts before us before we make any decisions.

 

Thank you

Cuan

[Jacques Kuun 10]

Thanks Cuan!

 

Regards

 

Jacques

[andries111 10]

yesss to ethic commitee

 

hi guys. i am not a big buyer but yes i think an ethic committee is a great idea, mostly for beginners or ill informed. especially to expose the sellers that are misleading and who's quality is not up to scratch. i have recently bought 34 items from albertmans and the guy is so professional and i am sure very ethical. maybe this topic must put out names of sellers that are stepping over the line. and still the question remains why are we buying at percentage of the catalog price? why not adjust the catalog to the reality market price?

regards andries111

[kennyn 10]

Hi Andries

One of the reasons that the catelogue price.especially Gibbons is higher than the market place is that in reality Gibbons is a selling price list.As they can not possibly carry every line,they will price higher so that if a client orders at Gibbons price,Gibbons can then purchase the item at market related prices and still make a profit.Likewise if Gibbons have substantial stock of an item,the price may be lower or equal to the true market price.

Regards

Kenny

[gabriel 1 11]

Hi Andries

 

You must use the Catalogue as a guide and not something that is cast in stone. Some items that are hard to come by are often offered way above catalogue value and still buyers are prepared to pay more. The market thus dictates the value of an item at a given period in time. An item may sell for double cat value for a couple of weeks and then you may not even get half of catalogue after that. The Mandela cover with the coin could be bought for between R15 and R25 2 years ago, I have seen covers sell for R3000 at a high and now probably around R1500, the cat value in the SACC is listed at R150. Items like these are often event driven, I remember when PW Botha passed away, I sold all my stamps and coins way over catalogue value. I believe for investment purposes one does not need items that fluctuate to extremes, up or down, there are items that will always be desirable and will only appreciate over the years. If one is collecting for investment purposes then a proper study should be done, use old auction catalogues etc., good luck

 

Regards

Gabriel1