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seahorsefanatic

DESCRIPTION OF LOTS FOR AUCTION

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seahorsefanatic

DESCRIPTION OF LOTS FOR AUCTION.

 

HiGuys/Girls

 

Just to add about what I was talking about if one looks at the items for thursday may I draw your attention to an item offered by Neil Green of Atacentre. It is a one pound Transvaal used which is described as superb used. I have sent an email to the seller requesting clarification on his description.

 

My apologoies to Neil in using this example. I have bought items from him before and have been very happy as well.

 

Does a stamp with what appears to be tonning accross the top and a pen line from top to bottom constitute " superb used " I think not. This is what Im talking about. I would appreciate others views on this.

 

Thanks Rusty500 - I agree with all of your last posting.

 

Lets get things moving in the right direction.

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AngelaBraun

David if you follow this link http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/10218712/RARE_RHODESIA_DOUBLE_HEAD_1_2_D_PERF_15.html

you will see that I too am fed up with items been described as you have stated and in this link you will see my comments in the question/answer post. I previously asked the same seller this question who quoted Union Pictorial vertical pairs at a value of over R35000 (If I remember correctly) 'It is common knowledge that vertical pairs are generally sold at 45% of the Horizontal pairs' catalogue value' I duly received a response of 'where in the catalogue does it say that, and vertical pairs are only referred to under the Silver Jubillee issue.' is what she claimed. I scanned pages from the Union handbook and forwarded them to her, but alas, to no avail. The personal email sent to me by her was, I will check it out with another dealer in Umhlanga and if it is the same person I think it is, he is not a dealer in the true sense of the word but rather a very lovely person who is a second hand antique dealer and stamps and coins are sold as a sideline. Hardly the person one would want confirmation from.

 

I am far from satisfied with what is been offered on Crazy Wednesday and I too have been complaining to our mutual contacts about it as you can clearly see when I posted http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/viewtopic.php?t=8792

this article quite a while ago. There is nothing I wish for more than to seperate the rot before it sets in and destroys the stamp industry which I love and which we have all worked very hard to uphold. The Philatelic fraternity is small and also a close knit one and I do believe there is place for everyone to sell their products PROVIDING that it encompasses all we have all tried so hard to instill in the stamp market. None of us can afford a bad reputation and we all need to uphold the standard practice and code of ethics which apply to and in any business.

 

As far as my lot you questioned about, yes I am satisfied with the description I gave, bearing in mind that the HTML also forms part of the description in the way of good scans. It is said "A picture is worth a thousand words" and for this reason I try not to hide any faults by giving a scan picture view and NOT a camera view. Of no importance to anyone but myself, it took me over 2 hours to load this particular one.

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dstorm

Hello David

 

From your last post:

 

Does a stamp with what appears to be toning accross the top and a pen line from top to bottom constitute " superb used " I think not.

 

Stamps that are not superb are not superb! They should not be described as superb! Superb means Very Fine Used / Unmounted Mint with Good Colours, Good Centering Very Light and Crisp Cancellation (if used) and NO DEFECTS WHATSOEVER! Amongst many other things!

 

Except in the case of Revenues and Fiscals, a crayon mark should be regarded as a defect.

 

I believe that you are into Seahorses. I can sell you about 20. All superb used with superb parcel cancellations (not the normal grey, but the scarce Jet Black shade). I have never before seen these stamps so Superb Parcel Used, proving that they are indeed parcel cancellations. The ideal investment opportunity.

 

Regards

 

Jacques

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dstorm

Hello Angela

 

Thanks for your last post. You summed it all up. I quote:

 

The Philatelic fraternity is small and also a close knit one and I do believe there is place for everyone to sell their products PROVIDING that it encompasses all we have all tried so hard to instill in the stamp market.

 

I think very often the “normal collector†does not realise the time and effort that the so called formal / professional / full time seller put into stamp collecting. And I put you in the category of a formal / professional / full time seller.

 

I am after 10 years still the organizer of the East Rand Stamp Fair. In January this year, after being severely criticized / reprimanded / attacked about various issues regarding the fair (by dealers and collectors alike), I decided to pass it on to any competent person in the market. Up to now there had been no takers.

 

I have also been the co-organiser of two very successful Junior National Stamp Shows.

 

What am I trying to say? Simply the following. Please read your quote again. I so fully agree with you – we work hard to make sure that stamp collecting / the stamp market is so much more than simply buying and selling.

 

Therefore we have the right to protect the market against opportunists / fly-by-night sellers (I am not alowed to use caps!).

 

Regards

 

Jacques.

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seahorsefanatic

DESCRIPTION OF LOTS FOR AUCTION

 

Thanks Jacques

 

I couldnt turn down such a superb offer from such as superb dealer on such a superb day !!!!!!!!!!!

 

If one takes the trouble to look into the initial pages of most catalogues and here Im refering to the Stanley Gibbons Commonwealth Part 1 - condition is clarified from best to worst as;

 

Superb - Very Fine - Fine- Average-Poor.

 

Details taken into account include centering, Perforations and cancellation. also the general appearance such as colours,paper,etc.

 

Therefore the best stamp is rated as superb and can be valued as such.

 

All of us collectors try to work towards "Superb" to improve the value and aesthetics of our collection that we put so much effort into. Very fine and fine are not a poor cousing to superb and are very collectable.

 

It is the stamps that are rated as "poor" that I feel should be described as such and personally I feel that these should not be offered for sale. An exception to the rule would be a very rare stamp.

 

All those selling philatelic material should bide by not only a code of conduct but the strict use of terms as superb may mean different things to different people. This cannot be loosely interpreted otherwise we may just as well throw our cataloges away

 

Just as there is an entiquette not to use CAPITALS in the forum, there is an entiquette we owe to ourselves and fellow collectors.

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dstorm

Hello David

 

Part of your post:

 

It is the stamps that are rated as "poor" that I feel should be described as such and personally I feel that these should not be offered for sale. An exception to the rule would be a very rare stamp.

 

I disagree with you slightly on one point. You might remember that I had about 50 Penny Black 3 years ago. Of these, about twenty were in really POOR condition. I sold them at an average of R100-00 each. Many a kid or pensioner walked out of my shop smiling. Not because they bought a valuable stamp, but because they filled a gap in their collection. The Penny Blacks might be an exceptional case, but I sell a lot of “Spacefillersâ€. Great Britain is a gold mine of examples with many, many stamps catalogued 100 Pounds upwards. I sell a lot of poor GB stamps at about 7% of catalogue value (or One Rand to the Pound) to collectors who want to complete GB, but do not have the finances to do so buying quality stamps. I think that the key is your original post: correct description. And the buyer should be made aware that he / she is unlikely to have a financial return on these stamps.

 

Regards

 

Jacques

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philatelicgems

The Condition Thing

 

1 -- I see the customer that bought the item that started this thread has posted feedback for it, and appears to be very happy with his purchase.

 

2 -- I have bought several items from Angela, and have found every one of them to be correctly described, competitively priced, delivered promptly, and well packed. In addition, Angela has bent over backwards to accomodate me as an international customer with some quirky needs and tastes.

 

3 -- As beginning collectors, we all go down the road of buying stamps that we really had no business buying, and 99% of the time that was without undue pressure from a dealer.

 

4 -- As we gain more experience as collectors, we develop the ability to figure out what direction we want to go in, and what quality of stamps we want. If we are working on a limited budget but love those Victoria stamps of Great Britain and really want to collect them, we have to be prepared to either buy stamps that are not premium grade or to assemble a collection that is far from complete.

 

5 -- So while the words superb, rare, scarce, etc. may well be used way too often in descriptions, we as buyers need to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff and buy what suits us. We understand that not every collection on sale is going to win a gold medal at the next exhibition in London, and that the price-benefit ratio is what really matters.

 

Just my two cents worth. -- Sandra

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qball

Hello everyone

 

Whilst healthy debate is encouraged and is good to see, attacks on individuals (named or not) is not acceptable. Argue the post, not the poster. I don't want to lock this thread but will do so, if it gets personal.

 

bidorbuy will not be making any changes to the crazy auctions. This is a competitive market place, and we do not want to over regulate it, this would be detrimental to all users of our site.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

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Rusty500

Hi all and goodbye all.

 

What is the use of having a healthy debate, and trying to install sanity in the stamp section of Bid or Buy, when there is no advantage to be gained from it. Whilst I too am against personal attacks on individuals, I am not oppossed to change if it were for the good of the site. The sellers, who spend millions of Rand advertising their wares on BoB, don't seem to have any say on improvements that they would like to see.

 

There are far to many sellers selling suspect items to unsuspecting buyers and the object of this forum was to try and work out ways to overcome these problems and create a healthy enviroment in which to trade.

 

As I do not intend wasting anymore of my time by posting on the forum, I must now say goodbye, have a fantastic Christmas and New Year.

 

Regards

Rusty500

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qball

Rusty500, I am sorry that you feel that way. The right to free speech is limited on this forum, personal attacks lead to law suits, civil action and other disputes. The forum is for information purposes, not for attacking other users, regardless of the reason. That way we ensure everyone is treated equally and with civility. We are happy for users to take a stand on various issues, just don't make it personal, those are our rules. Unfortunately if users don't want to abide by them, that is their decision. Although I feel there has been some over-reaction regarding the warning above, this ensures the forum does not become a battle field, where in the end, no one benefits.

 

You have been having your say and no one has stopped you, so I am a little puzzled as to why you would say that? The warning issued was a general warning to all involved, this ensures we have some sort of decorum on the site. By all means report scams and discuss issues but please ensure they are substantiated and can be proven. Currently, all comments on the forum are hearsay and we do not take action on hearsay alone. We are all for improving the site, but personal attacks on users is not the way to go.

 

Again, it is entirely your decision to withdraw from the forum, but I think it is a rather drastic step and serves no purpose in helping others.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

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seahorsefanatic

DESCRIPTION OF LOTS FOR AUCTION.

 

I take note of what the Operations Manager has said and I fully agree with the approach. From the start I have targeted a number of items and then the items description and not the seller personally. The only way we can move forward is to discuss these issues without getting emotional.

 

An idea might be to give a few examples of items and then invite the seller to respond as to why they have described a lot as such. This way the seller will learn where they are going wrong and as buyers we will all learn on what is an acceptable item to add in our collection. We all have individual standards but at the core we need to look after our hobby.

 

I have been collecting over 40 years now and have spent a small fortune over the years. This is my choice and I see my collection as both a hobby and an investment.

 

To rusty500, I trust that you will remain a contributor on the forum and I look forward to your viewpoint. i may not agree with it but I will read it. I want to read others inputs then I learn as well.

 

To Donderstorm, its a pity you sold all those penny blacks when you did as you would have done well in the current market. That does not mean I will sell my seahorses or strelitzia's back to you. haha

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dstorm

Hello David

 

I think you are making a very valid point.

 

Let us list any incorrectly described stamp items on this forum. Obviously we will have to supply links and inform the seller. We all make mistakes. The genuine sellers will surely take immediate action against their own listed items.

 

I once made a mistake with a so-called GENUINENLY used Transvaal 5 Pound, but rectified things immediately after Hans100 sent me a very heavily worded (and technically backed up) email. Proof of this statement can be provided.

 

We will soon see who is genuinely honest, but just inexperienced and who are deliberately trying to take buyers for a ride.

 

You state: “We all have individual standards but at the core we need to look after our hobby.†I think that it is our RIGHT and our DUTY to look after our hobby.

 

And does your fiancée understand what you are talking about? Seahorses, Strelitzias and floating a few million Rhino’s. Poland complete and a Dolfus?

 

And Rusty, please come back! Too much golf is not good for you!

 

Regards

 

Jacques

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gabriel 1

Hi all

 

I stay away from the Forum for a couple of days and miss all this, I feel cheated. We have heard alot from Dealers/Sellers but very little from collectors and when I say collectors I mean all those Guys/Girls snapping up all the items on BoB on a daily basis. How do they feel about what they have purchased, do they know what they have bought. I remember when I first started collecting I used to seperate my blocks of for example 4's because I thought they looked better in a row and fitted better in the stock book. I have heard of people litterally counting perfs because they did not know that there was such a thing as a perforation gauge. These are just 2 examples of what collectors deprived of knowledge get up to. How are they supposed to know?, education is the key and the Forum should be the vehicle. Firstly, we need to get collectors onto the Forum, once they start reading posts and participating in discussions they will begin to understand (I am not saying most collectors are stupid). Philately has so many facets and is very complex, it is probably one of the most difficult areas of collecting. I think that this is the reason why alot of collectors end up specialising, narrowing the field so that they can gain expert knowledge in one area instead of a fair knowledge in a number of areas. How do we make collectors aware of the Forum, a start would be to advertise it on your selling/description page when you post items for auction. Once BoB sorts out the system so that we can download pictures from our computers onto the Forum then examples of short perfs, postal history, postmarks etc can be shown. Not everybody knows everything but there are alot of people willing to help in their specialised areas. Even Auction Houses get things wrong, I recently showed an Auction Catalogue from a large house in the USA to DSTORM and he found various mistakes in the descriptions, especially when it came to GB, makes you think.

 

Regards

Gabriel1

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mwgielink

Hello to you all

 

I am fairly new to bidorbuy (started in about June this year) and have been collecting stamps since I was about 7 (now 22). I have never personally met another person that actively collects stamps (until last month I met one of my sellers) and have only ever found one shop that still sells stamp books etc. I am a buyer on bidorbuy and collect stamps for the pure joy of the hobby and thought I would add my comments to the forum for the first time. Sorry if it is too long, but here we go:

 

Relating to Gabriel 1's comment:

 

I fully agree with you regarding the knowledge required when collecting stamps and how many collectors lack such knowledge (I being one). I am sure I have been a victim of my own ignorance by now but have certainly learnt a lot since being a member of bidorbuy. I fully support your idea of using the forum as a place to educate fellow collectors. Regarding your uncertainty of how to inform buyers, well, all sellers have an email address book which contains the email addresses of every buyer they have ever dealt with. As such it would be very easy for the sellers to send out joint emails to their former customers about the starting and/or existence of the forum. I personally was never aware of the forum at all until I was informed by a "superb" seller in the above mentioned way (thanks Angela). I think that buyers should be informed that they can ask questions on the forum regarding stamp collecting, or there should be a questions and answer section, because you people hold a wealth of knowledge concerning such issues and am sure that you are all more than happy to share it (I personally have many questions).

 

Relating to comments by seahorsefanatic & dstorm:

 

As an unemployed student I fully agree with the opinion of dstorm concerning "damaged/poor" stamps. I love collecting stamps and try really hard to complete my collection as much as I can however, there are many stamps which I simply can't afford (e.g. early G.B.) and am quite happy at times to lower my standards by filling a gap with a "poor" stamp. As such I don't feel that such stamps should be completely disregarded and removed from bidorbuy (sorry to those that disagree). However, many collectors do not realise how little damage it takes to make a stamp completely worthless and as such, coming to the core of this forum thread (started by seahorsefanatic), I feel that the onus is on the seller to give a complete and accurate description of the item being sold. A clear scan should be essential (in contrast to a photo) and should be enlargeable. Many a time I have seen sellers advertising stamps by way of a picture that does not enlarge which can easily hide defects. I took a chance once by buying such a set only to find R96 later that 3 of the 8 were horrifically torn. A seller should only use words such as "rare or scarce etc" where it is valid and should always quote the full catalogue value together with a short description as to why the particular stamp being sold should sell for more or less than the CV (e.g. torn, short perforation, creased etc) together with possibly a more accurate estimate of its true value.

 

Relating to comments byrusty500:

 

Things that annoy me as a buyer:

1) Tiny pictures that do not enlarge

2) Misleading catalogue values with no statement about the fact that the

stamp being sold is not actually worth that much.

3) Sellers listing non South African stamps under the South African

listing. This is extremely annoying as I simply do not have the time to

filter through 4000 or so items. This defeats the whole purpose of the

search function.

4) When selling an album, clarity should be ascertained as to the number

of pages and sides. Some descriptions can be very misleading in the

sellers favour. use e.g. 16 pages with 32 sides. Also there should be

pictures of the pages included so that the buyer knows what they are

bidding for.

5) Sellers ignoring to respond to valid questions regarding the quality of

their listings before they close (as already mentioned).

6) Not all sellers indicate wether or not a stamp has been mounted or

not. I just saw an item described as unmounted when the picture

clearly indicates that the stamp once did in fact have a hinge attached.

Maybe the seller thaught that it was classified as "unmounted" because

the hinge had been removed?

7) Sellers quoting ridiculous amounts for postage. I went to the post

office the other day and it cost me about R15 for a registered letter.

Now, I know that there is some variation between post offices and

different letter sizes and that some sellers like to recoup packaging

and petrol costs, but prices like R25 for normal mail or R30 to R55 for

registered mail is blatant theft. I believe that some sellers may do this

to make an extra buck because of the knowledge that many buyers

don’t bother to first look at the cost of postage. Well, the onus here is

on the buyer to first read all the details, but just for those sellers that

do care, I personally will not buy from such sellers because I believe I

am being ripped off, regardless of what the item actually sells for.

8) When including several pictures, I have noticed that sometimes sellers

include the same picture more than once at different points e.g. at the

start and middle. This can sometimes give the impression that you are

buying more than you actually are. If there are several pictures of the

same page then only the clearest should be included, not all of them.

 

To Angela:

 

Thanks for sharing your stamp knowledge with me and also informing me of the forum. The 3 most important things to a buyer are: 1) good items, 2) good price & 3) A seller with a good track record that isn't going to burn my fingers. My experience with you reflects positively on all 3 aspects and I am sure that all your buyers will agree.

 

To every other participant:

 

I thank you all for providing an active stamp market to support collectors like my self and keep the hobby alive. I believe that the fact that you are all involved in this forum is evidence that you all care for the hobby and your customers and I hope (and believe) that you will all use the input and criticisms constructively. I have also noticed a severe decline in the number of sellers on Crazy Wednesday, I hope you will all return in due course.

 

Thanks for reading my point of view and I wish you all a merry Christmas and happy new year.

 

Regards

Mark Gielink (mwgielink)

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dstorm

Hello Mark

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Please see the separate post: SELL YOUR AGE. We need you there to mess up our statistics!

 

On a serious note, it is fantastic to see the input of another buyer, as most of the posts came from the sellers’ point of view.

 

The hobby is bigger than all of us combined.

 

But in my opinion your best point and up to now ignored by all posts regarding this matter:

 

When including several pictures, I have noticed that sometimes sellers include the same picture more than once at different points e.g. at the start and middle. This can sometimes give the impression that you are buying more than you actually are. If there are several pictures of the same page then only the clearest should be included, not all of them.

 

Regards

 

Jacques

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AngelaBraun

Hello Mark

 

So glad you were able to contribute your viewpoint on the forum as a buyer. It is a vital link for both sellers and buyers as a form of education. As a trader it is invaluable to learn of the opinion buyers have of the people they are trading with. I mostly enjoyed reading your pet dislikes which can only be beneficial to all dealers, sellers and traders alike. I will certainly take notice of what you said and not only learn from it but also put it into practice. This is what is needed, constructive and NOT destructive criticism.

 

Now that you have found the forum I hoe it won't be the last we hear from you.

 

Again, thanks for your input, and By the By Congrats for your graduation.

 

Blessings and kind regards

Angela

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seahorsefanatic

Mark, thanks for your comments and glad to see younger people on the forum. Hope you also take advantage of the Fairs in JHB when you can.

 

Not wanting to involve your graduation or other personal issues, Im sure the forum will only be richer with more contributions from all sectors and this includes all of us under-graduates as Ive been collecting for a very long time and am still a junior apprentice on the forum.

 

Bottom line is that titles aside, our hobby is alive and well and there for everyone.

 

All the best

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korrie

Hi to All

Just as an asider not quoting "superb, never seen, & other cliams"

Without prejudice and hoping the party which I have not advised about this recomendation does not take exception

 

Please refer to the listings for "albertmans" descriptions of his goods

 

Fisrt page issues mainly gives the following

1) Country

2) Catalogue value

3) date of issue

4) SACC Numbers

5) Stamp description

6) Stamp condition

 

What more could be desired "superb" detaling (sorry I was not going to say superb) but then I am not selling stamps only suggesting descriptions

 

All this before even going to the detailed information

 

I am sure others could follow his example

 

This saves us buyers on data packages a fair amount of data required to download info which sometimes gives no info at all

 

Much better than see description

 

Regards to all and vompliments of the festive season

I hope Jacques remembers us all with his snoek braai

 

Korrie

 

PS

Vompliments?? I thought I was dislecsic, maybe BoB should invest in a spell check

 

K

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