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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Claerhout forgeries?carte blanche tonight!!!

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Watch carte blanche tonight on m-net for an investigation into this!!!

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Seeds for Africa

I watched it. I thought it was a pretty weak program.

 

I bought a Claerhout from Paranovalty which when taken to Ashbeys Gallery in Cape Town which was confirmed as authentic. The disturbing things I took out of that program were :

 

1) The one piece was painted on a canvas that wasnt available on the market yet at the time of Claerhout's death.

2) Since when can a piece be an original if someone assisted the artist complete it? Thats the first time I have heard of this.

 

Surely a firm explanation needs to be given by Paranovalty regarding the piece painted on the canvas that wasnt available till after the artists death? I say the Carte Blanche program was weak as this was kind of left up in the air with the lady saying she doesnt know about it?

 

It would be great if Paranovalty would respond to the tv program on this thread to allay the fears of the thousand plus buyers who have bought from them.

Edited by Seeds for Africa

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ziggy2000

The fact that some paintings are done on canvasses only available after Father Claerhout's death proves that there are forgeries out there.

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lilythepink

I pass no comment!!

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mr miyagi

Claerhout

 

The insert on Carte Blanche was clear and merely shows to what length people will go to make money.Wet paint, Canvases that were not available etc...bob must take action to stop this.Furthermore, how can one person have so many of one artists work....Im sure that many of the paintings are original....but come on, lets get serious..... Even Claerhout, stated that people were making fraudulent works....the quality of some of the items listed on bob, including from some other sellers is also questionable .....bob must resolve this asap to avoid future problems......bob is a magnificent site, that I respect very highly and want the site to remain as a high quality site, that is beyond question by the marketplace.

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qball

Hi Guys

 

Interesting piece of television. Our stance will always be the following:

 

We have received emails alleging all sorts of activity but no-one has presented us with any hard, factual evidence or proof, therefore it is considered hearsay and as such we cannot act upon it. We have tried contacting the seller for feedback in this regard. If there is an investigation and we are not aware of any official investigation by the authorities and have not been contacted by the authorities in this regard, we will be more than happy to assist where we can.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

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ziggy2000

Carte Blance programme last night pointed out a couple of facts that prove beyond doubt that there are fakes out there. BidorBuy is seen by the public as the vehicle to move these art works. This casts a shadow over it's image as a trustworthy retail site.

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Seeds for Africa

I still believe that Paranovalty owe it to their loyal bidorbuy customers to at least post on the forum and give some form of response to the tv program. Silence is never a good thing when there are so many unanswered questions. I have noted that they have no listings open, which is a good thing. I would like to know if there is a link between Paranovalty and the other sellers of Claerhouts on bob?

 

I respect bob's stance as laid out by qball. My only concern is that where there is smoke there is fire, and that as ziggy2000 puts it, something like this could cast a shadow over bob and ultimately effect all sellers who operate legitimate businesses.

 

I see negatives are beginning to flow in from some rather unhappy customers.

 

I will also reitterate that I bought a piece from Paranovalty which was authenticated by Ashbeys Gallery and worth considerably more than I paid for it. Maybe I was lucky?

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Vegar

The gallery owner pointed out the OBVIOUS fact that many of the so called Claerhout paintings sold by Paranovalty are VERY BADLY executed - no artistic value whatsoever. She said: "One can spot those fakes from a mile away ..."

 

Those were the first Claerhout paintings I had ever seen and I was very put off - like many people I found them ridiculously childish and simplistic with bad perspective and crude lines. This was very damaging to the artist's legacy!

 

The Bidorbuy logo was flashed on the TV screen as synonymous with a market place offering fake art without any control. This is very damaging to art sellers' reputation on BoB.

 

People have been questioning the authenticity of those paintings for months ... I think that there are enough art experts selling on BoB who could have been called in to give their opinion ...:confused:

 

This is not the first and only incident where BoB has been reluctant to intervene where a successful seller is concerned - one can repeat mistakes or learn from them.

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Pharos

Firstly: I would love to shed light on the situation, but Cuan has previously made it patently clear that any anti-Claerhout-fraudster sentiment is not welcome on this forum, so let's rather not get into trouble. Secondly: GAMU Trading, why don't you ask Ashbeys if they have ever auctioned "Claerhouts" that they received from the "Van Hirtum Collection"?

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Vegar
I watched it. I thought it was a pretty weak program.

 

I bought a Claerhout from Paranovalty which when taken to Ashbeys Gallery in Cape Town which was confirmed as authentic."

 

GAMU - I agree, the program was weak ... "only" 4 experts were consulted (including the DALA dealer). The one was a woman who could spot a fake a mile away (dismiss as we never take a woman's opinion seriously), the other was the young man who was very emotional - angry and frustrated (we don't take emotional people seriously) The third was an older man who spoke with knowledge and authority (we don't take old people seriously).

 

On the other hand we have a woman who could hardly express herself, did not answer the questions asked of her ("Thousands of Claerhouts"? Dates on DALA canvas?) and she half admitted that a painting she sold "Could be a fake". BUT she had the "Pity Poor me" factor, which brings out the protective side in some people, and now scores of people would have to re-examine their "Claerhouts" ... some might want a refund ...Banish the thought! :shock: She had better be the innocent party in this story!!!

 

IF we believe that Rosa lied and faked the paintings, then we must admit to ourselves that we used poor judgement (bought bad art) and we must examine our motive for purchasing these so called Claerhouts (greed???).

 

GAMU - all the great artists had assistants who would work to specifications ... we are talking Cathedrals, not an A3 sketch of a wobbly donkey!

 

Why not direct Bongani towards Ashbeys? Perhaps they could clarify what's what?

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Seeds for Africa
I watched it. I thought it was a pretty weak program.

 

I bought a Claerhout from Paranovalty which when taken to Ashbeys Gallery in Cape Town which was confirmed as authentic."

 

GAMU - I agree, the program was weak ... "only" 4 experts were consulted (including the DALA dealer). The one was a woman who could spot a fake a mile away (dismiss as we never take a woman's opinion seriously), the other was the young man who was very emotional - angry and frustrated (we don't take emotional people seriously) The third was an older man who spoke with knowledge and authority (we don't take old people seriously).

 

On the other hand we have a woman who could hardly express herself, did not answer the questions asked of her ("Thousands of Claerhouts"? Dates on DALA canvas?) and she half admitted that a painting she sold "Could be a fake". BUT she had the "Pity Poor me" factor, which brings out the protective side in some people, and now scores of people would have to re-examine their "Claerhouts" ... some might want a refund ...Banish the thought! :shock: She had better be the innocent party in this story!!!

 

IF we believe that Rosa lied and faked the paintings, then we must admit to ourselves that we used poor judgement (bought bad art) and we must examine our motive for purchasing these so called Claerhouts (greed???).

 

GAMU - all the great artists had assistants who would work to specifications ... we are talking Cathedrals, not an A3 sketch of a wobbly donkey!

 

Why not direct Bongani towards Ashbeys? Perhaps they could clarify what's what?

 

Firstly: I would love to shed light on the situation, but Cuan has previously made it patently clear that any anti-Claerhout-fraudster sentiment is not welcome on this forum, so let's rather not get into trouble. Secondly: GAMU Trading, why don't you ask Ashbeys if they have ever auctioned "Claerhouts" that they received from the "Van Hirtum Collection"?

 

Maybe I wasnt clear.

 

1) When I said the program was weak, I was simply referring to the fact that a lot was left up in the air, and most specifically with Rosa not having any answer with the canvas issue. Maybe I should have been clearer - Rosa gave a very weak interview and response to the canvas issue.

2) As for thousands on "dala canvas", are the majority on dala canvas, that wasnt made clear?

3) Please dont get me wrong, if you read my previous posts on this issue, you will see that I said the seller needs to provide an explanation and answers to the 1 000 plus buyers of their artwork on bob. As I said........ silence is never a good thing!

4) Whilst I respect Bobs decision that they cannot act upon hearsay, I dont necessarily agree with it. My words above were clear..... It could cast a shadow over bob and ultimately effect all sellers who operate legitimate businesses on bob.

5) Why hasnt this been made into a case if there is irrefutable proof, like the canvas only being made post the artists death?

a) In my mind its straightforward. Dala Canvas provide an affidavit stating that the canvas was not available at the time of the artists death?

b) A buyer who has a so called artpiece on dala canvas takes this with the affidavit from Dala together with a copy of the advert (and the photo of the artwork advertised) where it is claimed to be an original, and they open a police case.

c) Am I looking at this too simply?

6) @ Pharos - Ashbeys know that the item was purchased on bob, and have still been comfortable with selling it. Do you think Ashbeys maybe got it wrong? I will PM you.

7) Per point 5 above, surely if this were done, that would be sufficient proof to bob that there is a problem? Maybe Bob can clarify on that?

8) @Vegar - If I wasnt clear I trust I have now cleared my stance on this up. There are a number of people on this forum who know very well why I purchased this item. I wont elaborate further other than to say, I am not a Claerhout "fan" nor was my intention to profit from it.

 

And finally my position is simple. I bought a Claerhout from Paranovalty for a specific reason. I clearly stated that a reputable gallery were happy with its authenticity to the point that they were happy to sell it on my behalf.

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Vegar

GAMU - I totally get you and I am aware of other posts of yours on this matter. I am puzzled that there was no feedback given to you on the Claerhout you bought? I would have liked to see the painting!

 

The DALA canvas could have come from abroad? If they are imported and were made elsewhere prior to 2003 then there is no proof here.

 

The WET PAINT should have been documented under oath to serve as evidence of fraud.

 

For me the two most pertinent points are - A. The tarnish on the reputation of Father Claerhout and B. The vulnerability of Bidorbuy to fraudsters.

 

Years ago I read that E-Bay sellers were complaining that their credit cards were blocked if there were suspicious activities on their account - :hm:

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ziggy2000

First time in months/years that there aren't Klaerhout paintings on the Tuesday/Wednesday auctions :confused:

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Seeds for Africa

1) I am not suggesting anything here, but this seller also sells quite a few Claerhout's.

 

MultiCorner (70 rating2.gif)

 

Rating:96.05% positive ratings

Location:Bloemfontein

Joined:09 Apr 2009

 

 

2) Again, I am not suggesting anything. This seller had quite a few listings for Claerhout but now they have none? They have sold around 50 of them.

 

Stolla007 (179 rating3.gif)

 

Rating:100.00% positive ratings

Location:Port Elizabeth

Joined:23 Nov 2007

 

 

3) Finally ......... still not suggesting anything. This seller has sold 400 plus original Claerhouts and now nothing listed

ChrizHan (1068 rating5.gif)

 

Rating:99.91% positive ratings

Location:Hennenman

Joined:29 Oct 2009

 

 

 

 

 

Why do none of these sellers have anything listed? Has bob removed listings due to the C Blanche piece? I wonder what the source of these other sellers art was? It just seems strange to me as to why they havent anything listed if there isnt any issue with their works, unless that is if bidorbuy are taking a prudent course of action by removing all items?

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Vegar

Multicorner makes the Claerhout listings DISCREET - which I always find 'fishy' when applied to everyday objects. I also question the 'broken' front leg in this painting Acrylics - Father Claerhout Original A2 Size Donkey ***Beautiful!!!! FREE SHIPPING!!!!! for sale in Bloemfontein (ID:43296228)

 

Stolla007 also uses the DISCREET button for Claerhouts.

 

Chrizhan sold the same donkey as the one with the 'broken' leg ... but had that leg AMPUTATED - I am happy for that donkey ...:bigsmile: (see link below) ALSO DISCREET !!!

 

Oils - Stunning Little donkey for you....Original F. Claerhout......21 x 29 cm on canvasboard was sold for R601.00 on 5 Aug at 14:02 by ChrizHan in Hennenman (ID:43028054)

 

Did the artist really repeat his work over and over again? Or are these copied because they are easy to draw once you get a hang of the style?

 

We should have a competition ....

Spot the differences ... :notrust:

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ziggy2000

Exactly, what was the reason for the discreet listings when the supply of the artworks was seemingly never ending and the value of them not that high? All it did was raise suspicion, something the Claerhout sellers can do without...

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mellowred

Why were all the listings "Discrete"?

 

 

Added later ... Oooops sorry didn't read page 2

Edited by mellowred
added comment

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Seeds for Africa

My question is with the other sellers mentioned, as to why they now have no claerhouts for sale? Did Bob take them off, or did they take them off and if so, why?

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qball
Firstly: I would love to shed light on the situation, but Cuan has previously made it patently clear that any anti-Claerhout-fraudster sentiment is not welcome on this forum, so let's rather not get into trouble. Secondly: GAMU Trading, why don't you ask Ashbeys if they have ever auctioned "Claerhouts" that they received from the "Van Hirtum Collection"?

 

Pharos, let's not make it personal! What I did say was that you needed to provide us evidence... there is a very big difference.

 

Thanks!

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qball
My question is with the other sellers mentioned, as to why they now have no claerhouts for sale? Did Bob take them off, or did they take them off and if so, why?

We have not removed them.

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qball
Carte Blance programme last night pointed out a couple of facts that prove beyond doubt that there are fakes out there. BidorBuy is seen by the public as the vehicle to move these art works. This casts a shadow over it's image as a trustworthy retail site.

 

bidorbuy is merely a market place, we are not a retail site, nor do we sell any of the items listed for sale. It is the seller's legal responsibility to ensure the items they sell are authentic and that they obey the law at all times. Nor can we always vett or verify the authenticity of any item listed on our site for various reasons, that is why we ask buyers to supply us with documented proof.

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qball
I still believe that Paranovalty owe it to their loyal bidorbuy customers to at least post on the forum and give some form of response to the tv program. Silence is never a good thing when there are so many unanswered questions. I have noted that they have no listings open, which is a good thing. I would like to know if there is a link between Paranovalty and the other sellers of Claerhouts on bob?

 

I respect bob's stance as laid out by qball. My only concern is that where there is smoke there is fire, and that as ziggy2000 puts it, something like this could cast a shadow over bob and ultimately effect all sellers who operate legitimate businesses.

 

I see negatives are beginning to flow in from some rather unhappy customers.

 

I will also reitterate that I bought a piece from Paranovalty which was authenticated by Ashbeys Gallery and worth considerably more than I paid for it. Maybe I was lucky?

 

Negatives are only coming in now in response to the show on TV, with little or no fact to back them up. Buyers will need to have the artworks authenticated in order to support their allegations.

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booksallsizes

All I can say is that is much better to scroll through the Claerhout listings now... Blood pressure stays stable :cool:

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Vegar

A healthy market place will self regulate and self police.

 

It seems that a strong message has been sent that forgeries will not be tolerated - perhaps those who would not withstand closer scrutiny have tucked tail and slunk away ...

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