ZAR 5 Shilling Coin very unique, comments welcome please.

[WRANGLER_4X4 10]

Okay so here is a real chance to make you think, this is a very unique ZAR coin of the 5 shilling nomination, what is so unique about this coin is the fact that when you take a look at this coin from the one side and you flip it over to the one side, left or right, the other side picture is upside down.

This must have happened when it was minted in the press, maybe it was put in incorrectly when the other side was to be pressed by mistake, have you ever seen such a coin like this before?

How would you put a value on such a coin.

I am sure that a coin like this was never mentioned in any coin catalogue.

 

Thus your comments are welcome.

[coinoisseur 11]

The coin is a Chinese fake

[WRANGLER_4X4 10]

Dear Sir

 

Can you please explain to me what you look for when you see coins like this that are fake? What gives the coin away? Why would the Chinease make these fake coins? Thank's.

[Mike Klee 11]

Hi Wrangler,

I do not know what other members feel, but I am personally uncomfortable when asked to point out why a particular coin is a fake. Unfortunately, this information gives the original counterfeiters an opportunity to recognise and correct such mistakes, which starts making it much harder for the experts to detect such fakes in the future.

Chinese counterfeiters and those from other countries make such objects purely for the money - the rewards can be truly vast.

My advice to you would be to accept Anthony's assessment and take steps to get your money back from the original seller. Out of interest, where did you buy it and for how much?

Mike Klee

[Nickel and Dime 10]

Hi All,

 

I do believe that I sold this "coin" to Simon as part of a collection, but included the "crown" as a token, due to it's nature.

 

Original listing here:

Other ZAR Coins - *** Large ZAR Collection - 40 coins *** was sold for R5,500.00 on 19 Jul at 16:09 by Nickel and Dime in Pretoria / Tshwane (ID:41768630)

 

Comments and opinions welcome.

 

Kind Regards

Shane

[WRANGLER_4X4 10]

Hi All,

 

I do believe that I sold this "coin" to Simon as part of a collection, but included the "crown" as a token, due to it's nature.

 

Yes this is 100% correct, I was informed that this particular coin was a token, however I must make one fact 100% correct here, I am still very happy with the purchase of this collection of coins, I have done a little research into this matter, but have not seen any of these fake coins that are upside down on the other side of the coin, I find this of interest and even though this coin might be a fake, it still interests me, Thank's Guys.

[Guest Guest]

I see..

 

Shane says...

 

I do believe that I sold this "coin" to Simon as part of a collection, but included the "crown" as a token, due to it's nature.

Reminds me of that classic pop song "I can see clearly now"....

 

Scott Balson

Edited August 7, 2011 by ndoa18

[Nickel and Dime 10]

Thanks Simon.

 

Huh, what does that mean Scott?

[Mike Klee 11]

Hi Shane and Simon,

I do not think that there was any crookery on the part of either of the two of you, but the object referred to is not a genuine coin (although it is definitely a fake coin) and is also not a token. Shane's original description was " On offer is a ZAR collection of 40 coins, plus a Pond token and a 1892 single shaft crown (which I HIGHLY doubt is real)"....which is honest (and correct), but also problematic as it was recognised that this was likely not to be a genuine coin.

As the manufacture of this 1892 crown could only have been for profit by deception - which worked, as it ws bought by Shane's father - is it fair or even legal for it to be sold on BoB?

I understood BoB was only for the trade of genuine numismatic material....or do we now need an additional category for "forgeries/possible forgeries:grin:"?

It would be better for the numismatic community for this item to be destroyed - which would would serve to get rid of an unwanted nuisance and would also send a message to the forgers that we do not appreciate this rubbish.

Mike

[ZARBOY 10]

Hi All

 

Some more info on Fake 1892 Crowns from my experience:

 

 

1. Overall wear pattern is not consistent with fields.

2. Milling on coin does not correspond to any other zar coins.

3. Serrations flattened and irregular.

4. Inspection with a 10X glass shows clear porosity in the surface of the coin,

also visible between the milled section on the rim.

5. The colour of the coin is not consistent with the age or wear of the coin

6. The weight of the coin is incorrect. It weighs 21g – 27g well below the 28.287g that it should weigh. Taking a test batch of 7 VF+ coins they all weigh in 28.14 plus and remain in designated weight range.

7. The lettering on the reverse the L and E will show an overlay consistent

with a casting.

8. The shoulder appears weak with no definition

 

Hope it is of some help.

 

Regards

Thomas van der Spuy

[Mike Klee 11]

Hi!

 

And I was really, really hoping that nobody would point out why the coin is a fake, as per my earlier post:" I do not know what others feel, but I am personally uncomfortable when asked to point out why a particular coin is a fake. Unfortunately, this information gives the original counterfeiters an opportunity to recognise and correct such mistakes, which starts making it much harder for the experts to detect such fakes in the future."........

 

Mike

[geejay50 10]

Hi Mike,

 

I take your point about not giving the counterfeiters the details of their mistakes but on the other hand , how are we collectors going to know if something is a fake if we dont in this forum expose the flaws in that fake?

 

I doubt very much if the counterfeiters (largely Chinese) actually go onto this forum. Eli Levine has had a book out on forgeries of the ZAR coins published in 1974 that is well known. He has gone into great details in describing each Forgery. Despite his book, the forgers have not been able to replicate a perfect Forgery of any of the ZAR coins - our fragmentary Forum isnt going to bring out a perfect Fake.On the contrary , it will help more collectors avoid big losses if we publicise the Fake details like they have a whole website on Mexican Cob Coin Fakes - please see details of that website in my recent posting under Scarce Coin Watch.

 

I would like to add to Thomas' List viz: 1) Inappropriate Lustre in the fields of a coin that has otherwise VF details of a ZAR Crown - obviously a cast copy of a VF coin

2) Mistake with the "3" in an 1893 Halfcrown where the '3" is not two partial circles but the top circle is angular in a recent Chinese Fake and similarly a mistake in the "4" of an 1894 Halfcrown where the "4" is too angular and doesnt curve away from the apex - see previous postings I have done along with pics to expose these two Fakes listed on ebay in the last year.

 

Even with modern technology, there still is no perfect Fake despite the sharp eyes of the Forgers, but we should not be complacent.

 

Information about forgeries will help collectors more than harm in my humble view.

 

Geejay

[Guest Guest]

Hi Georg

 

While we don't apparently agree on many things .. I do totally agree with your comments about this forum being of no interest to Chinese conmen and the importance of alerting innocent collectors on what to watch out for.

 

The conmen creating the fake coins (which are not token coins) are just out to make a quick buck. There is an uniformed buyer on just about every proverbial online corner so they will continue to catch people and that's all that interests them.

 

What should be outlawed is the resale of these fake coins. They should be damaged beyond repair once identified to prevent anyone else being caught in this disgusting scam.

 

I would suggest that it is probably other online auction houses, like eBay, where these coins come into the system. The best way to keep them out is for collectors to be advised to boycott ANY rare South African coin domiciled in China.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited August 11, 2011 by ndoa18