Reply By Glenn Schoeman - RE: Coin Grader Posting

[coinoisseur 11]

Morning fellow collectors.

 

May I start out by thanking Morne for stating that, and I quote “I for one is all for a slabbing company in South Africa.” This is good news for us, as we would be very pleased to have the numismatic public’s approval and support in the venture. I would, however want to caution Morne and all the other contributors to the forum to reconsider what they put in print, before they make statements that are totally incorrect and based purely on speculation and assumption. There is an old saying that goes, “don’t ASSUME” ,because if you do ASSUME, you will probably ASSUME wrongly. Assuming without actually knowing the facts invariably leads to the wrong assumption. You will probably end up making an ASS of U and ME. I am shocked that anyone would ASSUME that, and I quote again “(They have dicided (sic) to put both the South African grade and the American grade on a coin, so an (US) MS62 would also say (SA) AU58.!!! How can a (US) MS62 and a (SA) AU58 be same and how can they be equated in any way?. Gentlemen, a MS62 is a MS62 whether it is in the US, South Africa or anywhere else in the world and the same goes for any other grade of coin. This has been totally misconstrued. What was said in a NNS meeting was that the “Traditional International” grading system when compared to the “Sheldon Scale” would be present on the certificate, ie. Where a coin is graded (Sheldon Scale) MS60 to MS 62, this equivalent grade would be about (International Grade) UNC. Please also be aware that the grade UNC is not a South African Invention and that it has been in use for very many years and is still extensively used throughout the world. Should inconsistent grading principals be used, then surely there will be massive confusion. The examples given at the NNS meeting in March were exactly that, “examples”. This does not mean that Mrs. Natalie Jaffe WILL necessarily be grading every coin in Cape Town and that Brian Hern WILL have the final say on all coins graded. Please give us a little more credit than that. This project has been researched for more than four years now and everyone is only too aware of the fact that without having done the necessary “homework” and research, the entire project will not be successful. Let me clarify that there is not only one sealing machine and that it is in Cape Town. There are, in fact, seventeen machines in Cape Town and thirty three in Johannesburg. We are only too well aware of the fact that transporting coins all over the country is expensive, risky and dangerous. Even if the coins were to be moved from Cape Town to Johannesburg and back again, that sure beats moving them from Cape Town to Pretoria, then to the United States and back again. Movement of coins will obviously be kept to a minimum.

 

The cost looks like R195 per coin.? Rubbish. No price has yet been set and it would be senseless making the price too high.

We would like to comment on some of Morne’s points.

 

1) The person doing the grading will do so on a partime basis as they still run their own companies.

Don’t assume that ,...............not true.

2) There are(sic) currently no gas inserted into the slab to stop tonning(sic) of the coins

Don’t assume that ,...............not true................Nitrogen.

3) No security features on the actual slab

Don’t assume that ,...............not true.

5) Turnaround time will be to long for collectors , even longer than NGC or Pcgs.

Don’t assume that ,...............not true. Not even one coin has been graded and we are already being told that it takes too long.

If the turnaround time in SA is not quicker than the USA, then what is the point.

6) Security will be an issue as Slabbing will be done on a invoice number submited(sic) by a friend.

Don’t assume that ,...............not true. Where did you get that from Morne?

7) Posting a coin back and fort (4 Times) raises cost and change of going missing.

Don’t assume that ,...............not true.This will not happen, but it can only be cheaper than sending it half way around the

world than USA???

8) What systems are in place to track grading process.

Good question, you don’t know, because we haven’t told you yet.

9) Would these coin get market value if measured against NGC or PCGS on the world market.

Good question. If the standard of grading is not at least equivilent or better than the Americans then why not??

You are quite correct in saying that these questions have not been clarified yet, so please don’t ASSUME. Yes, Glenn did say he would contact Morne, Jan Kleynhans and Johan Gouws, and he will. We value you input and we will consult with you before we are ready to launch and everything is ready to run.

 

To answer some questions for Pierre. No collector, dealer or anyone else will ever be able to grade their own coins. Without absolute transparency and integrity the system cannot operate.

 

Gents, I am not a regular participant or contributor to this forum. The only reason that I have replied to your comments is because I have been asked to clear up some gross misconceptions. During the next few weeks we will post a detailed account of how the grading system will operate. In the interim, I appeal to you please not to speculate and assume how it will happen. Please wait for the facts before assuming the worst.

 

Please put yourself in the shoes of those who have initiated the project

The South African public are very critical and expect nothing but the best.

Ø Would you start a grading service in South Africa that would cost the client the same or more than the same service elsewhere, especially one that has already been going for a number of years??

Ø Would you consider starting a service that will take longer to supply the finished product than the one available in the USA????

Ø Would you purposely and knowingly subject the valuable merchandise to be transported to and fro from “pillar to post” risking the safety and security of “someone elses property”????

Ø Would you allow someone to grade his own coin, knowing that he would benefit from doing that???

Ø Would you make a massive financial investment in infrastructure knowing that your product will be vastly sub-standard to the existing one that is recognized worldwide???

 

Well,.......................................would you??????????????????? I don’t think so.

 

I would like to make it clear that we value your comment and criticism, because that will allow us to prepare the project to be launched with all the possible possibilities and contingencies covered. The more criticisms and input we receive from you, the collector, the professional and semi-professional numismatic dealer, the better equipped we will be to supply a service that we will be proud of and one that you will feel comfortable in using. We are obviously hoping to launch the project and start grading as soon as possible, but if it takes another four weeks or four years to prepare the system properly and to kick off with the minimum of problems, then so be it. I cannot understand why so many people are trying to shoot this project down before it even gets off the ground. Surely, if it works well it will be of benefit to everyone. We need the participation, co-operation and expertise that all numismatists can bring to the table. We know there will be “teething problems”, but with your assistance, advice and positive criticism we hope to eliminate as many problems as possible.

 

Constructive criticism is good. Let’s hear from you.

 

Regards

Glenn Schoeman

[Rare NotesCoins 11]

Hi Glen.

 

Thank you for youre reply. I havent made ussuptions yet as I only qouted that was said by youre self and Peter.

But point taken. I will then assume one thing. All sixty people who were there heard all you said, and are they are also assuming you said that?

I spoke to Brian yesterday and he also said both grade will be on the coin.

But I dont want to harp on what you said at the meeting as we all know what was said. Get this grading company of the ground AND YOU WILL GET MY SUPPORT.

 

Regards Morne

[Pierre_Henri 35]

Thank you Glen - and welcome to the biggest coin forum in South Africa

 

Thank you Glen for your feedback and may I also say that although I do not present anyone in the SA numismatic community, I personaly have high hopes for the venture.

 

I see from Anthony's and other replies that persons like Thomas vd Spuy and Jan Kleinhaus might be involved in the grading and that, for me, is as good as it gets regarding South African coins. (BTW are the new company also looking at grading overseas coins, say VOC ?)

 

I know that Thomas did an extensive grading course in the USA recently and that Jan is a master when it comes to the copper/bronze SA series, but one wonders who the rest of the grading team whould/could be?

 

The examples given at the NNS meeting in March were exactly that, “examples”. This does not mean that Mrs. Natalie Jaffe WILL necessarily be grading every coin in Cape Town and that Brian Hern WILL have the final say on all coins graded. Please give us a little more credit than that. Constructive criticism is good. Let’s hear from you. Regards Glenn Schoeman

 

I have known Natalie for the past 40 years and bought coins from her late husband as a 8 year old schoolboy on Saturdays when my father drove me all the way from the Boland town of Wellington to Tulbach square, Cape Town in the late 1960s where City Coins still resides - but can Natalie (just as an example - I want to repeat that - just as an example) truly grade coins in terms of the S-scale (1-70)?

 

I cannot do it, and VERY FEW dealers can do it - and I think only guys that went through the proper courses or has the truly "gift of knack" for it, can do it.

 

So I think - and you have asked for constructive feedback - that the graders must not only be NOT dealers, but they must ALSO be "certified" in whatever courses there are in grading coins - also they (the graders) must be as far removed from dealerships as possible and as close as possible to being full time graders with no affiliations to anything that might raise some question marks from whomever.

 

I wish you more success than you can imagine

 

Pierre

[Patricia_Gert 10]

Good day all,

 

Pierre I think you have hit the nail on the head, I agree and in my opinion the following two factors will be critical for this venture to succeed:

 

1) The graders must be truly independent. This point is one of the reasons that companies like NGC and PCGS are so successful, they never deal in coins and have no vested interest in the grade a coin gets assigned (i.e. they do not gain financially by assigning a better grade to a coin). As soon as any dealer can potentially gain by getting better grades assigned to his coins, the service will lose all credibility. In other words, the new grading company should never do anything to compromise their integrity.

 

2) The grading standard applied need to be on par with NGC and PCGS. If every coin graded by the new SA grading company receive a grade lower (or higher for that matter) than comparable coins in NGC / PCGS slabs, the service will also battle to gain collectors' support. In my opinion the only way for this consistency to be achieved is for the graders to actually complete the proper grading courses at the world leaders in independent grading.

 

There are also a myriad of other factors that will be critical, a few that comes to mind: Safety of the coins while in the process, efficient processes, ease of submitting coins, the ability to track coins through the grading processes, proper up-to-date census details, good turnaround times, cost (in my opinion, at least for more valuable coins this is not such an important factor, but the service should not be too expensive), the service should also not create the impression of a "one man band". If the service carries the SAAND approval and backing it should also contribute to the success of the venture.

 

A factor that the new grading company always will need to keep in mind is that a lot of SA collectors do have a significant financial "investment" tied up in coins, if coins in the new grading company's slab in any way will detract value from this, collectors will simply avoid this service. E.g. I (and many other collectors) will only buy coins graded by the second and third tier grading companies at a significant discount, and then most of the time with the intention to crack the coins out of these slabs for resubmission to NGC / PCGS.

 

In my mind, the biggest benefit of an esteemed and respected grading company in SA is that the risk of sending coins to the USA and associated dealings with customs etc. will be eliminated. Also, the money spend on grading costs (which for the amount of SA coins being graded in the USA is not an insignificant sum), will stay in the local economy (and numismatic industry?).

 

Whishing you all the success in this venture, a service like this is needed and actually long overdue.

 

Kind Regards

Gert

[Pierre_Henri 35]

I was just reading Glen's and then my own reply - after looking at the following again ...

 

Originally Posted by Coinoissuer

The examples given at the NNS meeting in March were exactly that, “examples”. This does not mean that Mrs. Natalie Jaffe WILL necessarily be grading every coin in Cape Town and that Brian Hern WILL have the final say on all coins graded. Please give us a little more credit than that. Constructive criticism is good. Let’s hear from you. Regards Glenn Schoeman

 

I was just thinking - the issue for me is not if Natalie or Brian Hern (or any other dealer) will be grading EVERY coin in Cape Town (or in Pretoria or Durban or wherever) - the actual issue is if they will grade even a SINGLE coin under the name of S.A.N.G.S. ?

 

Do I understand it correctly that some dealers will indeed be grading coins (not all coins but some coins) that will be slabbed under the name of S.A.N.G.S.?

 

Glen, I hope you will reply to this.

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

[Pierre_Henri 35]

??

 

Any feedback yet?

[Guest Guest]

Grading South African token coins

 

Pierre asked:

BTW are the new company also looking at grading overseas coins, say VOC ?

I would add to that question... will it also grade currency/trade coins like the Strachan and Co which ARE graded by NGC etc...

 

It is clear that the earlier metal indigenous South African trade tokens (post 1920) are gaining more and more prominence in collections, and rightly so.

 

In closing I would just say that the move to having South African coins graded by a reputable organisation in South Africa (ie not overseas) is long overdue.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited June 12, 2011 by ndoa18

[coinoisseur 11]

A response from Glenn Schoeman for Pierre and Scott

 

Hi Pierre,

 

Please understand that this project is obviously a new venture and at the moment, in South Africa, there is only ONE person that is a qualified coin grader that has no involvement in numismatics. So, Who do we then use to grade coins. We have said before, the “experts in South African Coins are in South Africa. So , therefore we will be using those “Experts”. Yes, some of them are dealers and some of them are collectors. These are the most knowledgeable people in numismatics, so we must use their expertise. In time we will obviously train people to be full time graders. We cannot take “Piet Snot” or “Sipho”, who know nothing about numismatics, off the street and train them to grade coins overnight. What I want to make perfectly clear is that no dealer or collector will ever be allowed to grade their own coins. We are striving to run an efficient, transparent system, so, I repeat, no one will be albe to grade their own coins. I will shortly be posting full details of the system. Until then please be patient.

 

Regards Glenn

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

We will only be grading coins, tokens and any form of numismatics that have their origin on South Africa. So, yes, we will be grading Strachan & Co. Tokens. We do not profess to be experts on coins from anywhere other than South Africa

 

Regards Glenn

Edited June 14, 2011 by Coinoisseur

[PBGold 10]

I can only say good luck to the graders, because they are going to be buried under an avalanche of Mandela R5's, and tons upon tons of 1c,2c etc.

 

It is a great idea though and I will support it 100%.

[Pierre_Henri 35]

Thank you Glen

 

Thank you Glen

 

Hope to receive the rest of the feedback soon

 

I wish you all success.

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

[johangou 10]

Grading

 

Glen I think you were a little rough with Morne.

There are many questions and somebody need to listen to the "clients" if you want to make a sucsess of this venture.

So I am tooooo afraid to ask anything

Edited June 20, 2011 by qball
Please refrain from personal comments