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South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

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alloway65

I see certain BoB coin sellers are selling coins graded by SANGS, on their slabs a website address is given....but unable to locate this website...can anyone help?:blush:

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Pierre_Henri
I see certain BoB coin sellers are selling coins graded by SANGS, on their slabs a website address is given....but unable to locate this website...can anyone help?:blush:

 

http://www.sangs.co.za

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alloway65

 

Thanks Pierre,

Managed to access the website but very limited info available re pricing and how/where to send coins for grading. I will send them an e mail and see what response I get!

David

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Bargain Coins

please keep us updated

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kimbo11
please keep us updated

 

+1 (I see the site is down at the moment)

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bok2004

Hi guys,

After i read all these threads about SANGS, the pros and the cons, the bad and the good i decided to give some of my inputs regarding them. Now first of all i dont want to go into a DEBATE regarding SANGS VS PCGS OR NGC all i know is i am a proud South African and i am happy to have our own Grading company to grade our coins. I am a believer in facts and this is how i see the Numismatic world.

 

Lets start from the beginning, when PCGS and NGC started years ago they mostly also had a lot of fleck and a lot of negative response to there doings and they just kept on going and today they are massive, why? everybody doing coins is using them even our selfs because we never had our own Numismatics. I read people are crying because Brian Herns is a grader, so what if he is one? he has the experiance do grade coins wheter sometime he might make mistakes or not, that is a human factor and nobody is perfect.

I and many of you know about the mistakes PCGS and the mighty NGC has made before and that is ok!! to many of you!! after all what does PCGS and NGC knows about our coins our heritage our history?. They know something about our coins reading books from who?? BRIAN HERNS!! getting info from him, using him,phoning him, asking him call it what you want but that is were they know our coins from!! and he cant be a Grader of our own coins here in South Africa??WOW!!

 

I have been to SANGS a couple of times in person and the welcome i had was overwhelming, coffee and friendlyness, and just a real South african style of welcome, at that stage they did not know me from a bar of soap and i did not know them either, have not met Brian Herns ever in my life but i know who he is and that is my point today. "Dont judge a book by its cover" I met some of the staff, Glen Schoeman, Craig Nicholls and Allex one of the Graders in person and again guys they make you feel welcome!! what more do we want??.

We are always so sceptical and that is our S-A image, "the sun is not shining on your head!!, i will stop it" instead give all a change in life, they (SANGS) must have us behind them to succeed, that is how all other grading companys in the world succeeded. without us!, the world!, they can close there doors "NGC" and "PCGS". SANGS is almost complete for up and going as far as i know, maybe a bit here and there but it is running, well my coins was graded, capped and done in a matter of 7 working days, that is the time your coins will only reach NGC and or PCGS.

Give these guys a go and you wont regret it at all. Get into your car and go there in person, dont just sit and wait for a webpage or a mail, go there and see for yourself. Be a proud South African supporter!

 

 

Here is some contact details:Craig Nicholls or Glen Schoeman

craig@grcmint.co.za

 

GATE NO 1

RAND REFINERY COMPLEX

REFINERY ROAD

GERMISTON

011-873-5090

011-873-5672

Edited by bok2004

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Typan

simple CO.ZA whois server

 

The CO.ZA simple whois server

© Copyright UniForum SA

Use of this facility subject to the terms of site usage

Your query has generated the following reply:-

 

 

Search on sangs (.co.za)

Match: One

 

Domain: sangs.co.za

 

Accounting info....

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confirm with the UniForum SA accounting department, accounts@co.za, should this

not be according to your records. You have been sent 0 invoices/statements.

 

 

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Jedeye

SANGS may have been uber friendly to you Bok2004, but I seem to be having a different experience. I am told that they will not grade my coins until they have a directive from the SA Mint to do so. (These are the six under-spec proof Krug coins from last years Mint debacle)

 

I wrote to the Mint who returned my mail very promptly informing me that they had absolutely no problem with anyone who wished to grade my coins.

I forwarded this letter onto SANGS and got no reply for a week. When I called again I was told that they now have decided that unless the Reserve Bank has given approval, they are not willing to grade my coins. This is discrimination in my book and I am having to resort to legal means to expedite my coin grading.

 

Very odd.

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Pierre_Henri
SANGS may have been uber friendly to you Bok2004, but I seem to be having a different experience. I am told that they will not grade my coins until they have a directive from the SA Mint to do so. (These are the six under-spec proof Krug coins from last years Mint debacle)

 

I wrote to the Mint who returned my mail very promptly informing me that they had absolutely no problem with anyone who wished to grade my coins.

I forwarded this letter onto SANGS and got no reply for a week. When I called again I was told that they now have decided that unless the Reserve Bank has given approval, they are not willing to grade my coins. This is discrimination in my book and I am having to resort to legal means to expedite my coin grading.

 

Very odd.

 

Why don't you send them to NGC?

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Jedeye

Hi Pierre.

I ahd made contact with NGC, sent them all the relevant info, the pics and the assays, and had applied for an emergency visa. (I did not want to send these valuable coins via courier, I wanted to take them myself) I had decided on a date to travle when I got a note from a chap at NGC asking me if these coins had been struck by the SA Mint. I confirmed that they had.

Literally 5 hours later I got a mail telling me that they could not grade these coins. This, in essence, is the letter he sent;

 

"I spoke with our Mint Error specialist and showed him your emails and all of the pictures and findings. All the specifications are within reason. They aren't significant enough to be called a mint error or a variety.

Unfortunately NGC will not be recognizing this as a mint error or variety.

 

Kind Regards

Charles McGregor "

 

And this is after MANY emails to and from NGC, who had agreed there was easily cause to grade these coins as mint errors. In fact I was told by SANGS just this week that I would never be able to grade these coins because nobody would "touch them"

 

A conspracy? or am I just paranoid?

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kyle2
Hi Pierre.

 

 

And this is after MANY emails to and from NGC, who had agreed there was easily cause to grade these coins as mint errors. In fact I was told by SANGS just this week that I would never be able to grade these coins because nobody would "touch them"

 

A conspracy? or am I just paranoid?

 

Definately smells like a conspiracy, have you tried PCGS ?:ninja:

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Jedeye

I have Kyle. They have not answered my mails at all and when they hear my name, the consultant is "not available right now". Maybe SANGS is right? I'm a noob at this and am probably doing things the wrong way, but, in time, I guess I'll learn.

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kyle2

I think also, in time, those coins of yours are going to become quite legendary, I would not give up if I were you, remember the saga of the american double eagle, look it up, fascinating story.:sneaky:

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Bellcoin

I think the real question is:

 

What do you grade them as? They cannot be assigned a "grade", they are not for intense purposes "mint errors"?

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Jedeye

If they are not mint errors, what would you call the anomalies? Cheating? Stealing? Nope. Unless one is accusing the Mint of theft, which I'm sure very few people are, they are errors in the strike. They have weight problems, size problems and spec problems... how does one define that?

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Jedeye

Kyle, is that the 1933 Double Eagle you speak of?

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kyle2
Kyle, is that the 1933 Double Eagle you speak of?

 

The very one! If you don't want one of your coins...........I'd be happy to take that burdon from you....at the current bullion rate...LOL

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Cold Sea

Hi Jedeye

 

Errors by simple definition are coins that were produced at the Mints and were formed by an accident, malfunction or human error anytime during the minting process. The consequence is that the designs of the coins were altered to look different than what was intended.

 

I assume the alloy, in whatever form, would have been supplied by an independent, and turned into a coin by the mint’s processes. If this is true, whatever the reasons for the composition of the alloy, this was not done by accident, malfunction or human error at the mint. For this reason then, you must agree that it should not be classed and graded as a mint error.

 

The mint’s assaying and quality control depts seems to have slipped up though.

 

Maybe it belongs in the same category as the Sammy Marks tickeys (remember that permission for these were withdrawn), a blob of gold that went through the minting processes, not officially recognized, but worth more than their weight in gold.

Edited by Cold Sea

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bok2004

Hi Jedeye,

 

Well,Well it seems to me that SANGS are doing there homework regarding your coins and because of that i would say thumbs up to them! I feel sorry for you regarding those coins you have but dont you think SANGS was right from the beginning not to grade them?? If an company like NGC or even PCGS dont want to grade them, why must SANGS grade them understand my question, not been nasty here, its just the fact that there is a problem with those mints and it is NOT mint errors as far as i am concerend, this was fraud if i can remember by employees from the mint and they are fired and a case has been opend against them, that is regarding the specs on the Krugers from last year. My opinion two wrongs doenst make a right!!, i would take them back to the mint and ask for my money which they will gladly do and regarding SANGS you can say thank you to them for helping you in a smart way and i know it sounds bad but they have to built a name and that is just what they were doing by declining your coins and so is NGC and PCGS.

Remeber no hard feelings to any of them but next time you take some coins to SANGS you will feel great because they do it the right way.

 

Have a good one!!

 

Bok2004

Edited by bok2004

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Jedeye
Hi Jedeye

 

 

I assume the alloy, in whatever form, would have been supplied by an independent, and turned into a coin by the mint’s processes. If this is true, whatever the reasons for the composition of the alloy, this was not done by accident, malfunction or human error at the mint. For this reason then, you must agree that it should not be classed and graded as a mint error.

 

Interesting point of view. If one deduces it was none of the above then the only alternative is these coins ended up like this by design, by the mint or the supplier.The Reserve bank has publicly stated that there was no shenanigans from the mint's employees leaving.... no reason at all.

There was way to much copper, compensating for the missing gold, by the way, and all the coins were over-weight, quite substantialy over-weight.

 

So, by your deduction and the authorities rejection of "by design", what would you suggest the direction to move in is?

 

I have had a few offers for these coins from Europe and one from Russia but I am told by various numasmatists worldwide to hold on until they are graded... I have had two grading companies offer to do the job outside of SA but their rating is not as good as the big five....but I am a rookie collector who has concentrated on proof Krugs and these conflicting bits of advice are confusing, to say the least.

 

To Bok2004. Nobody was fired from the Mint. No fraud charges are being brought about on anyone from the Mint or their suppliers. I have no idea where you got that from. SANGS has said that they WILL grade the coins, if they get the go-ahead from the SA Reserve bank, they are just being cautious because they rely on the SA Mint for their respective businesses.

 

NGC and PCGS do HUGE business with the Mint. If the Mint or the RB were to take their business away from either of them the loss would be way bigger than the small fee I would pay them to grade. All they are doing is protecting their client, nothing more, nothing less. This has never happened to a Mint in living memory and it has happened now. As far as taking them back for the price I have paid... I have been offered nearly 835 times what I paid for them already, without them being graded... but, I will get them graded, one way or another, with or without SANGS co-operation.

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bok2004

Jedeye

 

Some of the news regarding these Kruger rands.

 

 

 

As i said, it is your coins and you can do with them what you want and i hope for your sake you can get them graded but as long as there might be and i say might be some fraud regarding the making of them then i dont know if any grading company will grade them!! hope for your sake it is NOT the case and hope you will get them graded.

 

Reserve Bank spokesman Hlengani Mathebula said local and international coin dealers had been informed of the underweight coins. A verification process showed that some coins appeared to be "under specification to varying degrees".

He said that of the 1500 minted in that period, six were found to be below the required weight.

Mathebula would not be drawn on the reasons for Mvinjelwa and Davel's suspensions.

In December last year, the bank said the men were suspended for "technical issues". Mathebula said this week that their suspension was related to the "running of the SA Mint Company".

Roodt said: "This is a cause for concern because the Reserve Bank is involved and must be above potential fraud. It can't be tainted by anything."

Mathebula said if collectors felt that the coins did not meet the required specifications, they would be exchanged at the expense of the SA Mint Company.

 

 

[h=1]South African Mint executives leave company for good[/h]Andile Mvinjelwa and Thomas Davel leave South African Mint Company by mutual agreement following conclusion of investigation into poor-quality krugerrand coins

 

Edited by bok2004

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Jedeye
Jedeye

Reserve Bank spokesman Hlengani Mathebula said local and international coin dealers had been informed of the underweight coins. A verification process showed that some coins appeared to be "under specification to varying degrees".

He said that of the 1500 minted in that period, six were found to be below the required weight.

Mathebula would not be drawn on the reasons for Mvinjelwa and Davel's suspensions.

In December last year, the bank said the men were suspended for "technical issues". Mathebula said this week that their suspension was related to the "running of the SA Mint Company".

Roodt said: "This is a cause for concern because the Reserve Bank is involved and must be above potential fraud. It can't be tainted by anything."

Mathebula said if collectors felt that the coins did not meet the required specifications, they would be exchanged at the expense of the SA Mint Company.

 

Bok, where did you get this quote?

Mmathebula ccan not posibly be that dof? Can he? The coins were over weight, not under weight.

Very strange statement.

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bok2004

Welcome to the new South Africa lol,

 

 

This was big news

 

 

 

South African Mint executives leave company for good

 

Andile Mvinjelwa and Thomas Davel leave South African Mint Company by mutual agreement following conclusion of investigation into poor-quality krugerrand coins

 

 

 

They left because of what?? a better pakkage?? no they must have done something wrong. Those coins did NOT have the right gold specs in it all other things was in place, exept the finess of the gold.

Edited by bok2004

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Jedeye

Nope. All other things are not "in place".

Diameter: Wrong. Too big.

Weight: Wrong. Too heavy.

Copper: Wrong. Too much.

Thickness: Wrong. Too thick.

Gold: Wrong. Too little

 

I have 29 of these coins. A dealer I know had 48. All were checked and only 6 consecutive numbers were wrong.

 

Addressing the reason that Andile and Tom left: You obviously have knowledge that I do not. They left by mutual agreement. They were suspended back in December as a matter of policy until the investigations were complete. Out of 150 coins, six were found to be problematic. No fraud or theft was found. Done something wrong? What are you suggesting?

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Cold Sea

So, by your deduction and the authorities rejection of "by design", what would you suggest the direction to move in is?

 

I think that if any fraud is found to have taken place, the coins could be deemed fake. I don't think that grading companies would want their label on a suspect item. And the price will be affected of course.

 

I have just seen your last post quoting the wrong diameter and thickness. In my opinion, unless the Krugerrand specs have changed, these coins were minted on fake planchets which somehow made their way into the mint.

Edited by Cold Sea

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