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coinoisseur

South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

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EWAAN Galleries

My question was will SANGS give a guarantee on the grade....???

 

I like the way NGC gives 3 options :)

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jwither

I have never attempted to collect under the guarantee (never having had a reason to even try to do so) but it is my understanstanding that NGC will choose which of the three options to offer. If this is not correct, someone like EWAAN can let me know.

 

For example, let's say someone did try to collect in the above example, depending upon when this happened, the most favorable option to them might be to try to select option #1 or option #3. My understanding is that NGC has the option of making good on its guarantee under option #2 if that is more favorable to them. It would probably be more favorable to them because they can find this coin at a cheaper price than the supposed market value the customer might want to use. For coins like this one which either still do or did have absurdly inflated prices, I would not count on getting what most probably think they would or should receive.

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ANTONDIRK
Bellcoin;130313]WOW Ewaan is all I can say - Heritage will not sell SANGS coins - conflict of interest??

 

Heritage is in conflict with NGC - that's a plain and simple fact - Heritage has shares in NGC.

 

THAT'S CONFLICT OF INTEREST!

 

The whole numismatic grading - 3rd party - is in conflict of interest.

 

GOOGLE - and the answers are there to see.

 

MY prize ZAR coins- not slabbed - why should I slab them? To have them authenticated? To have the grade confirmed? Don't think so, its just not worth the effort and time.

 

Ewaan and others, I hope you all are having a nice day with our hobby. To my mind there will probably always be a "conflict of interests" where human people, frail as you and I, have to grade coins for others. First of all, they have to be numismatists first for them to come by the knowledge they need to have for grading. Secondly, they must also have a passion for coins as they will be grading dozens of coins a day, and if they are not happy in their work and don't enjoy what they are doing it must inevitably lead to sloppiness, which we don't want. Thirdly, they must be knowledgable to be able to grade. You can't advertise for someone to come and grade with no knowledge, appoint him/her and then teach them what they need to know. This knowledge comes with years of experience.

In short, graders must also be numismatists and numismatists can't be people sitting by a desk with only some book knowledge about numismatics - they have to be "hands-on" coin lovers and that means collecting. What you do want is someone with the ability to be neutral about what they love to do and that's a tall order, but a possible one and I think the only viable one.

Let's give them the chance to do what's best for numismatics and judge by their results and performance.

So what if one does not like the person doing the grading? No-one can be universally liked just as no-one is infallible. Happy collectiing.

 

"SHOW ME A MAN WHO LOVES WHAT HE DOES, AND I'LL SHOW YOU A MAN WITH COMMITMENT"

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ALJADA

South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

 

Hello Everyone,

 

I personally think it is fantastic that we will finally have our own third party grading service on our doorstep. The reasons I have for stating this are, in part, as follows (I shall refrain from stating all my reasons as they will undoubtedly spark some comments which will drift us off on a tangent that will inevitably detract from the more important reasons I shall state here):

  • Logistically submitting coins locally is undoubtedly less risky than making them traverse the Atlantic and half the USA.
  • Should any problem arise from the local logistics, it will be far easier to solve such problem given that the item(s) will be within our borders.
  • The costs involved in the certification of coins will be substantially less than submitting them overseas, which in turn will result in more of our coins being certified and this will then give us a plethora of further benefits such as the protection of our coin heritage & more accurate population stats.
  • Introduction of our own attributions applicable to our coinage only.
  • The backing of long standing and highly respected local numismatic societies including highly knowledgeable & respected numismatists, who collectively have more experience and knowledge regarding our coinage than all the overseas third party grading services put together.
  • The fact that I can drive to the service and perhaps discuss issues regarding the certification of my coins before or after they have been certified excites me tremendously and anyone who knows me will know that I do not become excited over much, sexy women, free alcohol, +200km/h and a good clean punch up are about it! I believe that we will be in a position to finally have a say when it comes to having our coins certified accurately & consistently.
  • Even if the aforementioned point does not materialise and I have to crack my coins out & resubmit them many more times to attain the correct grade, I will be more than happy to do so because of the first 4 points!
  • I do think that SANGS has work to do when it comes to adjusting their technical grading knowledge to bring it up to speed with the 'Sheldon Scale' system but I am certain they will overcome this without causing any harm to the industry which makes any opposing opinion to this point mute!
  • How many of us out there really know how to grade coins? If you are fortunate enough to know how to grade coins then you are in a position to benefit from all the extra coins that will soon be graded by SANGS so enjoy! If you are not able to grade coins then you will now be in a postion to learn far quicker with less school fees than ever before!! If you dont care to know how to grade then wait to see how SANGS is accepted by those who do know how to grade and follow suit.

I am of the opinion that the pros far outweigh the cons in so far as the issue of a local third party grading service is concerned so I will not bother listing the cons. If I was a shareholder in an overseas third party grading service right now, I would be flinching at the thought of receiving much smaller dividends in the near future!

 

SANGS bring it on!! Viva!!

 

ALJADA

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jcriller

I agree that it would be a big pro to have coins graded within our borders, but does anyone here know exactly when they will be able to send coins for grading? seems like its impossible to get hold of anyone at SANGS

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

Any idea when SANGS will open its doors....they said early March. It's almost April...?

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EWAAN Galleries
Any idea when SANGS will open its doors....they said early March. It's almost April...?

 

Maybe they will give some answers after the DURBAN COIN SHOW?

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kimbo11
Any idea when SANGS will open its doors....they said early March. It's almost April...?

 

Is there some new for us?

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geejay50
Any idea when SANGS will open its doors....they said early March. It's almost April...?

 

Hi all,

 

What has happened to SANGS and its much vaunted opening in March? We are well into April and the www.sangs.co.za doesnt open any more. Another local let down?

 

Collectors can draw their own conclusions.

 

Geejay

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Bargain Coins

I thought long and hard, so decided to open " The Southern Tip of Africa Coin Grading Services", just waiting for the container of slabs to land from China. Already got a telescope, binoculars, contact lenses and reading glasses to see clearly. Latex-, cotton- and leather gloves to handle the coins. Pliers, tweezers and glue. My sister will print the stickers on her PC. 3 Zimbabweans to grade, as i write they are studying Hern's 2012 handbook. you send me the coin with a return self addressed postage paid bubble-wrap envelope and add R50 for every coin to be graded. I guarantee your coin will be graded within 24hrs of me opening your envelope and on the way back to you the next day. I have special on Mandela coins first 50 000 will all be graded MS70 at R30 each.

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Jongleur
I thought long and hard, so decided to open " The Southern Tip of Africa Coin Grading Services", just waiting for the container of slabs to land from China. Already got a telescope, binoculars, contact lenses and reading glasses to see clearly. Latex-, cotton- and leather gloves to handle the coins. Pliers, tweezers and glue. My sister will print the stickers on her PC. 3 Zimbabweans to grade, as i write they are studying Hern's 2012 handbook. you send me the coin with a return self addressed postage paid bubble-wrap envelope and add R50 for every coin to be graded. I guarantee your coin will be graded within 24hrs of me opening your envelope and on the way back to you the next day. I have special on Mandela coins first 50 000 will all be graded MS70 at R30 each.

 

What a great plan!

 

Can we do a deal on your first (and only) Mandela R5 Birthday Coin to grade "Finest Known".

I want to sell it for 10 000 000.00 USD.

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Pierre_Henri

Getting it right 100%

 

I am also a bit P=off with feedback lacking – but we all know the story about the old bull and the flock down in the valley ...

Rather take your time than rushing in ...

 

Pierre

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alloway65

Sometimes Always Never Grading Service!!!

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Pierre_Henri

Whooo wha - that is a good one !

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Cold Sea

What's in a grade

 

SANGS:

 

Both the International grade and the equivalent Sheldon Scale grades will be present of the detail of the coin. e.g. EF+ (AU55)

 

My preference (not that it matters) is for the international scale ie EF+ to be used rather than the Sheldon scale (AU55), which seems to me to be more subjective (Sheldon that is) and a seller's grade rather than a collectors grade. Whether SANGS or South Point, I hope this is the case locally.

Edited by Cold Sea

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geejay50
Hi All,

 

This anonymity as to ownership of SANGS is not good for any company that wants to serve (they havent really started yet). One or two ZAR coins graded for their chosen clients does not equal service, it only serves to irritate those collectors who do not have the means to send to USA.Who do they have to hide and why???

 

NGC celebrates its 25th Anniversary this year. Is it not a pleasure to have a Grading Company that has such a long track record and data base which we can use as an Internationaly recognised Gold Standard with regard to coin availability and quality.Our cream of SA Numismatics already lies in NGC and PCGS slabs with a Data base that is plain to see.

 

The high mintage, low value modern coins are left for the local Companies if they can get their act together and concentrate on service and reliability. Its going to be a long road though.I personally think NGC and PCGS do an excellent job and any smaller local grading company if they can survive , will always live in their shadow.

 

Geejay

 

Well folks,

 

Sorry to say that SANGS has not even got off the ground in spite of the names of Organisations that "support" them I am not sure what support they give ??

 

Serious collectors will have a long memory for this failed local effort.

 

So no more mutterings about a credible Local Grading Service, lets go back to Numismatics and accept what the world has been accepting all along even with its few failings. At least they GIVE SERVICE and have a data base upon which our hobby depends.

 

Geejay

Edited by qball

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

Yip, early March they said wasn't it...?

 

Did they mean March this year or next year?:biggrin:

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coinoisseur

Hello Everyone

 

Firstly, let me make known my opening comments when I posted information about SANGS in this thread!

 

Hello Everyone

 

I received this information to post on the forum. Please do not address any questions to me as I will not be able to answer you. This posting is just a briefing on the new grading service and a more detailed media release will be forthcoming. All I know is that the grading service has the backing of SAAND and all the Numismatic Societies and Associations in South Africa.

 

 

It is absolutely frightening at the amount of negativity that is thrown around just before the Durban Coin Fair. This happened last year and again this year. I am sick and tired of the so called serious collectors who do nothing to promote numismatics or any venture in South Africa, yet they constantly try to deflate South African Numismatics. I can clearly remember when people slated Herns catalogue and yet today, the very same people quote Herns catalogue prices in their listings and will gladly accept close to catalogue price on any item they sell. The very same people wanted to organize their own coin show and start their own collectors society. What happened to this..... we have gladly opened our doors for you to join local Numismatic Societies and to attend Coin Fairs. Please stop the negativity

 

For those that are really interested, I have contacted Glenn Schoeman. SANGS is very much alive and ready to be launched. They will be present at the Durban Coin Show and will have a table. This is your opportunity to ask as many questions as you want. I do not have any further information as I have nothing to do with SANGS. The people who are running SANGS will be at the show.

 

 

See you all at the show

Edited by qball
Edited comments

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geejay50
Hello Everyone

 

It is absolutely frightening at the amount of negativity that is thrown around just before the Durban Coin Fair. This happened last year and again this year. I am sick and tired of the so called serious collectors who do nothing to promote numismatics or any venture in South Africa, yet they constantly try to deflate South African Numismatics. ... The very same people wanted to organize their own coin show and start their own collectors society. What happened to this..... we have gladly opened our doors for you to join local Numismatic Societies and to attend Coin Fairs. Please stop the negativity

 

For those that are really interested, I have contacted Glenn Schoeman. SANGS is very much alive and ready to be launched.

 

Hi Anthony,

 

You have spent a posting speaking on behalf of a local grading company, who its supporters are but in the same posting claim not to have anything to do with it. That is a contradiction surely.Why doesnt SANGS leave you out of this completely and speak to us and keep us updated directly?

 

Surely we the collectors are vital to the existence of any Grading Company and have a right to ask that deadlines are met. First the SANGS does a bit of Grading for a chosen person in November 2011, then they say they will be up and running early in March 2012. That doesnt happen even a month later with NO apology or explanation.Then the site doesnt open at all (it has since opened but ? actually accepting coins for grading) We must be happy with this vague second hand explanation of SANGS as you say "alive and well" whatever that means? That is not good enough to entrust valuable coinage I am afraid.

 

That the proposed launch of SANGS in March coincides with the Durban Coin Show in April is purely the result of the timing of these two and not a planned conspiracy against the coin show as you imply. Collectors have a right to be heard when companies do not meet their deadline especially with a hearsay explanation.

 

The Collectors Society has never made promises of the sort that SANGS has to the public. It is a strictly private non profit organisation aimed at the interests of serious collectors only.The quality and scale of our collections, our ongoing involvement in improving knowledge on all aspects of Numismatics speak for themselves that we are the heart and soul of this hobby.

 

Geejay

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by geejay50
removed comments

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qball

I will remind ALL posters to remain on topic and NOT get personal or confrontational...

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Little Miss Muffet

I dont think a service like sangs would even begin to think of starting up unless the people involved have knowledge of coins or have been dealing with coins for a long time.

Lets face it we all know something about grading if we spend years researching the subject.

What could be better than having a grading center in South Afroca?

I think the critisism is uncalled for.

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jwither
SANGS:

 

 

 

My preference (not that it matters) is for the international scale ie EF+ to be used rather than the Sheldon scale (AU55), which seems to me to be more subjective (Sheldon that is) and a seller's grade rather than a collectors grade. Whether SANGS or South Point, I hope this is the case locally.

 

I do not believe that either one is more consistently applied than the other. I have bought a decent number of coins from the UK under the international grading scale and the equivalent numerical grades are in actuality all over the place.

 

From what I know, an EF+ is NOT an AU-55. It can be anywhere from an AU-58 to MS-63. An EF as see it is generally AU-50 to AU-55 but some I have seen are also US EF and in one instance, the coin came back from NGC as an MS-61. Other descriptions such as "nearly uncirculated"or "virtually as struck" should be a US MS-60+ and presumably MS-63 or better, but in buying such a coin and determining how much to pay, I absolutely would not count on it meeting a particular MS grade without actually inspecting the coin in person,

 

As for any grading service using it, the first one that does so is guaranteeed to fail. The chance of coins in these holders significantly displacing either NGC or PGCS I see as essentially ZERO, including in South Africa.

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Cold Sea

Hi jwither, my question is how consistent the grading company can be when you get to the MS category with increments of one. I regularly see comments of regrading to better the grades. This tells me this end of the scale might be too subjective. I am still to be convinced that a 69 is worth more than a 68. Your comment that a start-up company using the international scale will be still-born might hold water, but that would only be because most dealers, for obvious reasons, prefer the numerical scale, and would not get their support.

 

[TABLE=align: left]

[TR]

[TD]Prefix[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Numerical Grade[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Adjectival Description[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]MS[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]60–70[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Mint State (Uncirculated)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]AU[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]50, 53, 55, 58[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]About Uncirculated[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]XF [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]40, 45[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Extremely Fine[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]VF[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]20, 25, 30, 35[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Very Fine[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]F [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]12, 15[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Fine[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]VG [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]8, 10[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Very Good[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]G [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]4, 6[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Good[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]AG[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]About Good[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]FA[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Fair[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]PR[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Poor[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

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coinoisseur

Thank you Georg for your valued input..... Like I said, you are welcome to ask SANGS all the questions you have at the show where they will be present. I know who SANGS are, I know who is involved but it is not in my place to speak for them. I merely out of Courteousness posted information which was passed on to me on BOB. SANGS was not registered on BOB at the time.

 

Out of interest to many, "The Collectors Society" which you run, what is the criteria for one to become a member or is this restricted to a few that you choose.

 

All the best in your venture in promoting South African Numismatics.

 

 

Cheers

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jwither

Cold Sea,

 

The buying practices of dealers for graded coins - certainly the better ones - are mostly irrelevant. For most coins whether from South Africa or the US, collectors do not need them now that the internet is available. You can buy coins directly from auctions with ease and even from other collectors. Buying and selling from a dealer for the most part is purely voluntary. There are SOME coins that are better obtained through a dealer because they might be able to find it for you where you cannot on your own, but not most of the time. Only a VERY FEW.

 

With this new service, dealer buying support would obviously help but in and of itself is not necessary. I think that dealers probably have more of an incentive to accept the new service than collectors of SA coins. But even if prominent SA dealers choose to offer them for sale, I still do not believe that any volume of expensive coins are going to achieve parity price with NGC or PCGS. I have explained this many times in prior posts on this subject. A collector has ZERO economic motive to buy such a coin for anywhere near the same price, unless the cost is nominal. They have nothing to gain and possibly a lot to lose.

 

Personally since I resumed collecting in 1998, I have bought ALMOST ZERO graded coins from dealers. There are two reasons for this. First, until I sold most of my better South Africa coins recently, my collection was BETTER than the typical dealer inventory and to the extent that I could see, even better than most prominent dealers, even in South Africa. So what exacty would they have that I would even want to buy?

 

This is for Union because I never even attempted to try to complete ZAR and I acknowledge that dealer inventory is better (much better) in this area. But even here, most collectors could usually buy the same coin for less money from a source like Heritage, though I know some in SA do not like that because of the shipping risk. Personally, I would usually rather compete against dealers at auction than buy from them.

 

On my other series, I have been able to find almost ZERO coins, graded or not, from dealers that I would ever want to buy. They almost never have them and it is pointless to even bother. Many dealers would not even know what these coins are without consulting a reference book first.

 

The second reason is the absolutely absurd and exorbitant asking prices I see, Go look on BoB and you will see them. The same goes for a US dealer like Northeast Numismatics. Their prices used to be reasonable but now they are a complete joke much of the time. ZAR seem to be more reasonable than Union. The latter I would consider to be a complete ripoff.

 

The other point I would make is that, based upon my limited observations, at least some of the more prominent or supposedly prominent SA dealers do not even deal in graded coins. Or if they do, it was not for any significant portion of their inventory. My information is dated since I do not even bother with SA dealers anymore but if you need examples, I can tell you ones I am referring to.

 

Lastly, your chart is how the adjective descriptions are applied in the UNITED STATES, at least in the past. What I am telling you is that based upon the coins I have bought from the UK, that chart is not accurate and the consistency in how they are applied is no more accurate either. Neither are consistently applied but I do not see any evidence that this British system is applied more consistently than the Shelson Scale. If you have such evidence, I would like to see it.

 

In my opinion, its not really the consistency of the grading scale that is the problem, but the pricing structure. If you have read my prior posts, I have commented on this many times. Your example only applies to very recent moderns (almost always anyway) but the same thing applies to slightly lower graded MS coins.

 

How many posts have you seen where someone has commented about some "conditional" rarity, near conditional rarity, or MS coins generally? And in a few other posts, eye appeal considerations such as the color designation on bronze coins or most recently, cameo proofs.

 

If collectors would actually pay attention to the relative cost of coins and the difference in actual quality, then there would be much less reason to care whether a coin was (for example) MS-65 versus MS-64. The coins do not actually look that different, so big deal if a coin is a "conditional" rarity" or closer to it. It is only because of money that it is.

Edited by jwither

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