Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
coinoisseur

South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

Recommended Posts

Bellcoin

Ewaan

 

I really do not understand what the big issue is, whether Heritage will sell SANGS graded coins or not. If they do not want to so what, if they do so what. I and I am sure others do not give a continental c..p whether Heritage will or will not.

 

Your comment above " SANGS and other poor grading services" wow Ewaan.

 

Oh yes At least I gave them an indication of what SANGS do and is!

 

He actually asks you a question Ewaan, have you replied to his question "what is Sangs"?

Edited by Bellcoin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Credibility

 

In the opening post Anthony Govender wrote the following...

 

Backing and Approval

 

Recognised, organised numismatic bodies like, The National Numismatic Society, The Natal Numismatic Society, The South African Numismatic Society and the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers have indicated their support to the concept.

 

The bottom line to the proposal is that the system will be run in a transparent, ethical, efficient and reliable manner in accordance with the principles and “Code of Ethics” as proposed by the above mentioned societies and associations.

 

If these numismatic organisations can't be trusted to do the right thing for the collecting community in South Africa then we might as well all go and pack our bags and go home.

 

I trust them - not the outrageous comments be Ewaan - even though I do not get my coins graded.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Swimming with the sharks

 

So let me get this rights Ewaan.

 

You call SANGS a "poor grading service" even though you have never used it or seen a coin slabbed by it.

 

That is incredibly dangerous water you are swimming in.

 

I think Chris should be alerted to this thread so he can see the discussion taking place here - I won't do it but I am sure someone will.

 

Chris' reply is in RESPONSE to YOUR comment that SANGS is a POOR grading service. He had never heard of it.

 

Read my post above.

 

PS this "evidence" you provide is dated AFTER my request for you to provide evidence that Heritage would not accept SANGS graded coins.

 

It was sent just after 2pm YESTERDAY and Chris' response was eight hours later.

 

If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish it is a fish.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

Hi

 

Okay here is emai below with proof that Heritage (The World's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer) will not sell SANGS Coins.

 

Email Below From Cris Bierrrenbach (Executive Vice President)

 

[TABLE=class: cf gJ]

[TR=class: acZ]

[TD=class: gF gK][TABLE=class: cf ix]

[TR]

[TD]Bierrenbach, Cristiano - 1661 [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[TD=class: gH]10:22 PM (22 minutes ago)cleardot.gif[/TD]

[TD=class: gH][/TD]

[TD=class: gH acX]cleardot.gif

 

cleardot.gif[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: acZ]

[TD=colspan: 3][TABLE=class: cf adz]

[TR]

[TD=class: ady]to me

 

cleardot.gif[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We only accept PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICCS for Canadian. What is SANGS?

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Ewaan Galleries [mailto:]

Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:02 PM

To: Bierrenbach, Cristiano - 1661

Subject: Sangs graded coins..

 

Hi Cris

 

Please confirm that heritage will never sell coins graded by Sangs and other poor grading firms..

 

Please confirm for the record which grading companies Heritage will only recognise.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

The Above Email Clearly States Which Grading Firms Are World Recognized.

 

Kimbo: We are not against SANGS in any way.... We will give them 100% support if dealers have no personal interest in it... According to previous posting it was mentioned that dealers will assist with grading. Can dealers assist with grading coins???

 

 

 

 

 

cleardot.gif

Edited by qball
No contact details

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries
So let me get this rights Ewaan.

 

You call SANGS a "poor grading service" even though you have never used it or seen a coin slabbed by it.

 

That is incredibly dangerous water you are swimming in.

 

I think Chris should be alerted to this thread so he can see the discussion taking place here - I won't do it but I am sure someone will.

 

Chris' reply is in RESPONSE to YOUR comment that SANGS is a POOR grading service. He had never heard of it.

 

Read my post above.

 

PS this "evidence" you provide is dated AFTER my request for you to provide evidence that Heritage would not accept SANGS graded coins.

 

It was sent just after 2pm YESTERDAY and Chris' response was eight hours later.

 

If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish it is a fish.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

 

Hi

 

Please Email Cris yourself -

 

He has confirmed in 2 emails sent to me that Heritage will not accept SANGS....

 

I never called SANGS poor - If you read my email properly.....

 

And If dealers will be assisting with grading - it is a poor service....

 

PS: I think you forgetting we have a big time difference with America.... The email was sent last night and a reply sent a few minutes later... so 2pm America time yes.....

 

Bottom line is I have given proof with emails that they will not sell SANGS graded coins... And if anyone doubts me please contact Cris yourself -

 

I will do you the favour of sending Cris the link to this post....

Edited by qball
No contact details permitted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bellcoin

Ewaan

 

I still cannot fathom why selling SANGS graded coins via Heritage is such a big deal to you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qball

Please all stick to the topic and no personal arguments with each other, argue the topic or post not the poster.

 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PBGold
Ewaan

 

I still cannot fathom why selling SANGS graded coins via Heritage is such a big deal to you?

 

I don't see the big deal either.

 

SANGS' success will certainly not be based on whether Heritage sells SANGS graded coins or not. As big as Heritage thinks it is, it does not determine the success of a country's grading companies. If they don't like it, its their problem. If they want to play the "African automatic failure" card, so be it.

 

Of course, when it does become a success they will quickly change their tune.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Whether it is a "problem" or not depends upon the perspective of the buyer or seller. As far as whether it matters or not depends upon which coin someone is talking about. It will be irrelevant to the majority of SA coins because most of them are not worth much money and there is no real reason for anyone to care one way or the other.

 

On the more expensive coins, it will matter more to some than others but there will almost certainly be a "discount' for a SANGS coin worth any "real" money because it will have lower liquidity with foreign and even many SA collectors, at least initially. So for the more expensive coins, it will matter whether Heritage agrees to sell them or not because a significant percentage of expensive SA coins sold outside of SA are sold by them.

 

As I have said before, as a foreign buyer, there is no current incentive for me (or any other that I can see) to prefer a SANGS coin to an NGC or PCGS coin. Zero, zip and nada. I believe most foreign buyers share my sentiments and this is irrespective of whether SANGS turns out to be a "better" grading service for SA coins than NGC or PCGS or not. Because foreign buyers have a greater impact on ZAR prices than for Union and RSA, it will matter a lot more for the former than the latter.

 

What I describe here is no different than what exists for other grading services, except for the Canadian ICSS. As I explained here before, what invariably happened in the past is that the better and/or more expensive coins in ANACS, ICG, etc holders were and have been crossed over and the "crap" has not. This reality only reinforces the market perception which already exists.

 

As to how exactly that relates to SANGS, i do not know. I expect essentially zero existing NGC and PCGS coins of any meaningful value to get crossed into a SANGS holder. And I doubt that many will be sent in for grading to SANGS either and if they are, they will more often than not almost certainly be sold for less than a comparably graded NGC or PCGS coin upon resale and then end up in the latters holders later.

 

The bottom line is this. SANGS has a tall hill to climb to obtain market perception parity with NGC and PCGS, especially among international buyers who buy a much bigger percentage of the more expensive SA coins. There is a possibility that the service can succeed by expanding the market for lower priced graded coins but this is no "sure thing" either if anyone who is reading this post followed my logic when I attempted to explain the general economics of this business before.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Dealers are behind NGC according to eBay

 

Found this interesting comment on NGC on eBays online guides:

 

NGC ESTABLISHED IN 1987

One of the top four grading companies. Some of the owners are also major dealers.

Nice holders

Grading is not always consistent

Submission prices reasonable

Does not grade problem coins

Attributes errors and varieties

Submissions are thru Authorized Dealers, Collector Club Members or ANA Members

Collectors Club Membership - $99.00 per year

 

Source: eBay Guides - PCGS vs NGC vs ANACS vs IGC

 

Extract about two thirds of the way down the page.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

 

I am not exactly sure who owns SANGS, but as in the case of NGC and PCGS, coin dealers do have (or had) shares in these companies.

If you think about it, who ELSE will start an endeavour like that?

Surely it will be business people with an interest in numismatics. Can you imagine Lucky Johnny-down–the road–with-the-second-hand-car-dealership starting a coin grading service?

Or Christo Wiese or Johan Rupert?

Or Piet Pompies’s condom factory?

No, certainly not – it will be someone interested in coins with a business background and USUALLY that is a coin dealer. Eventually the coin grading business might change hands and end up with people who are NOT dealers. But starting out of the blocks:- ... usually coin dealers are involved: - almost always.

And we all have to thank them (because) would YOU like to start a service like that to fellow collectors? Are YOU prepare to take the risks and put your money (pun intended) where your mouth is? WE are pointing fingers but are too damned scared to go all the way and do something for our shared and beloved coin-hobby like THEY did ... and now WE badmouth them for no apparent reason.

My second point is WHO actually grades the coins when dealers are involved with the grading company:- Did the PCGS owner who also is a coin dealer – when he started out - grade his own coins? I really do not think so. Does he do it today? NO, certainly not. Does he still deal (sell) coins? YES!

Do you trust PCGS (or NGC) to grade your coins with all those dealers involved?

Probably yes...

So how on earth can one badmouth a South African grading service if one has NEVER seen their grading results, slabs, service, etc etc ... ?

Let’s give our own boys a chance – if they do not deliver – reject them, BUT PLEASE let’s not spread the dreaded anti-South African we-are-useless message before you have even seen the end product...

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kimbo11
I am not exactly sure who owns SANGS, but as in the case of NGC and PCGS, coin dealers do have (or had) shares in these companies.

If you think about it, who ELSE will start an endeavour like that?

Surely it will be business people with an interest in numismatics. Can you imagine Lucky Johnny-down–the road–with-the-second-hand-car-dealership starting a coin grading service?

Or Christo Wiese or Johan Rupert?

Or Piet Pompies’s condom factory?

No, certainly not – it will be someone interested in coins with a business background and USUALLY that is a coin dealer. Eventually the coin grading business might change hands and end up with people who are NOT dealers. But starting out of the blocks:- ... usually coin dealers are involved: - almost always.

And we all have to thank them (because) would YOU like to start a service like that to fellow collectors? Are YOU prepare to take the risks and put your money (pun intended) where your mouth is? WE are pointing fingers but are too damned scared to go all the way and do something for our shared and beloved coin-hobby like THEY did ... and now WE badmouth them for no apparent reason.

My second point is WHO actually grades the coins when dealers are involved with the grading company:- Did the PCGS owner who also is a coin dealer – when he started out - grade his own coins? I really do not think so. Does he do it today? NO, certainly not. Does he still deal (sell) coins? YES!

Do you trust PCGS (or NGC) to grade your coins with all those dealers involved?

Probably yes...

So how on earth can one badmouth a South African grading service if one has NEVER seen their grading results, slabs, service, etc etc ... ?

Let’s give our own boys a chance – if they do not deliver – reject them, BUT PLEASE let’s not spread the dreaded anti-South African we-are-useless message before you have even seen the end product...

Pierre

 

AMEN. (Thank you Pierre)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
coinoisseur

Hi Pierre

 

Your educated response goes a long way in promoting Numismatics in South Africa which is lacking currently. Numismatics in South Africa will die and fade away not because of SANGS, the SA Mint, Dealers or Numismatics Societies but because of the constant negative that's brought into the Market place. Having followed and read this topic, some of the comments and replies looks like personal conflicts and sour grapes between posters and some dealers. It is one of the main reasons I have stayed away from commenting or making posts on the forum. This forum was supposed to benefit and promote Numismatics not degrade or bring it down.

 

I do hope that people take note of your well thought out response and start promoting Numismatics for the benefit of all in South Africa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Hi Pierre

 

Your educated response goes a long way in promoting Numismatics in South Africa which is lacking currently. Numismatics in South Africa will die and fade away not because of SANGS, the SA Mint, Dealers or Numismatics Societies but because of the constant negative that's brought into the Market place. Having followed and read this topic, some of the comments and replies looks like personal conflicts and sour grapes between posters and some dealers. It is one of the main reasons I have stayed away from commenting or making posts on the forum. This forum was supposed to benefit and promote Numismatics not degrade or bring it down.

 

I do hope that people take note of your well thought out response and start promoting Numismatics for the benefit of all in South Africa.

 

Equally likely to turn both existing and new collectors off to collecting SA coins is the outsized focus on money and profit. Obviously, since the financial commitments and outlays are sometimes substantial, it must be a consideration. But just like in the United States, I consider the focus on coins as an "investment" and what i would describe as the nonsensical premiums which exist on "conditional" rarities and other like coins to be a long term negative for coins as a hobby in SA. The primary difference between collecting in the US and SA is that even though US coins are far more overpriced, there are still a substantial number of choices for the hobbyist of any budget to choose from because the options are so much greater. As I have explained in many prior posts, going by the trends and sentiments I see, if they are fulfilled as many apparently seem to think and hope, the majority of collectors are going to be priced out of either a substantial or even a majority of SA coins. Only those that are either common or in lower grades will remain affordable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

How can SANGS fail?

 

Fascinating open survey on the Fleur de Coin web site comparing the major coin grading services...

 

See: Coin grading services survey results

 

and what the coin grading services said in response to the survey...

 

Survey of coin grading services

 

Based on the first link I am amazed people use any of these major grading services at all!

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Scott,

 

I have seen that survey before, though I cannot tell from the image when those results were produced. My conclusion from those results is that it explains why PCGS and NGC are dominant today and it also explains why every other US grading service is either heading to extinction or already there.

 

In actuality, there is only one real reason that explains why grading services exist at all, no matter which one we are talking about : money. A "real" collector I could see being interested in getting a second or expert opinion on whether a particular coin is genuine or counterfeit, but that is not an issue for most of them. Not for South African coins or otherwise. And even then, there is only an incentive to fake coins that are worth "real" money or near it. There re few to zero fakes for coins with low values except with contemporary counterfeits.

 

Before the grading services existed, knowledgeable collectors did not need anyone else to tell them what was considered a "market acceptable" coin and they certainly did not obsess (to my knowledge) over minutia such as whether a coin had "X" number of ticks or marks on the surface. And they frequetly preferred and paid more for coins that today have lower technical and even market grades than for those which are "better" now. Based upon the price spreads coins (yes, especially scarces ones) used to have, I would expect that they would mostly consider the modern price structure absurd as I mostly do. Because if they did not, the price structure would have differed before.

 

Personally, I believe the current price structure is simply another attribute of the credit mania and artificial prosperity. When that evaporates and hard times impact more people, the most exorbitantly overpriced coins (based upon their historical relative prices) are going to lose a lot of value. Many of them will recover little if at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Hi John

 

There are two results in the survey which do not compute:

 

1) Grading service of NGC and PCGS is ONLY superior (ie NOT outstanding) - we have seen plenty of examples with NGC where it is just plain wrong.

2) The costs of grading are high

 

If SANGS get it right and fit the outstanding category in 1) then 2) becomes largely irrelevant if they are cometitive. If their turnaround is fast then all the better.

 

An inferior grading service does not make it superior because it is "better" than the rest - which appear to be a joke. In my view both NGC and PCGS offer an inferior service because they get so many gradings wrong. The SANGS advantage is local knowledge, local expertise and a desire to make this service succeed.

 

As I have said many times before I do not get my coins graded and based on what is out there right now why should I? How can slabbing with a questionable grade by NGC be better than an unslabbed high quality image of a coin reflecting its beauty?

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
republikein

Yes, people on this forum were in the past quick to show a finger at SACGS and now at SANGS, but, gross mistakes by the American grading companies indicate that they are not beyond holiness...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Hi John

 

There are two results in the survey which do not compute:

 

1) Grading service of NGC and PCGS is ONLY superior (ie NOT outstanding) - we have seen plenty of examples with NGC where it is just plain wrong.

2) The costs of grading are high

 

If SANGS get it right and fit the outstanding category in 1) then 2) becomes largely irrelevant if they are cometitive. If their turnaround is fast then all the better.

 

An inferior grading service does not make it superior because it is "better" than the rest - which appear to be a joke. In my view both NGC and PCGS offer an inferior service because they get so many gradings wrong. The SANGS advantage is local knowledge, local expertise and a desire to make this service succeed.

 

As I have said many times before I do not get my coins graded and based on what is out there right now why should I? How can slabbing with a questionable grade by NGC be better than an unslabbed high quality image of a coin reflecting its beauty?

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

I do not disagree with you but I think you are passing over my main point. The main reason to get coins graded by any grading service is marketability. There is no other real reason. And NGC and PCGS unquestionably provide the best option for that at the moment, regardless of the accuracy of their grading.

 

Moreover, though I do not know who the survey participants were, I believe that they were either exclusively or almost exclusively either US coin dealers or mostly dealers who focus on selling US coins. The PNG (who conducted or sponsored the survey) would not bother to make the same survey for coins or dealers of any particular country whether South Africa or elsewhere. It would be pointless to a US centric survey which was exactly what this represented.

 

Those who have or buy graded coins of any noticeable value (however subjective that may be) I do not see as really caring whether NGC or PCGS grades a coin "incorrectly" as an MS-62 or MS-63. Some may but most do not EXCEPT as it impacts what they pay or sell it for.

 

This is why, regardless of whether SANGS turns out to be a "better" grading service in actuality, they are going to have a perception problem to overcome when it comes to the marketability of the coins in their holders. This is not just my opinion, but what is evident in the prices coins actually sell for. Sometimes, on the infrequent occassion when a coin worth "real money" is not in an NGC or PCGS holder, it will sell for a strong price. But not normally or at least it will still sell for less than if the coin were in the NGC or PCGS slab because coins are frequently bought "unseen".

 

On the cost of the service, I agree with you again that the NGC and PCGS fees are excessive, for coins of low value anyway, But then, I do not see why these coins are graded in most instances anyway and this is true whether the coins are from South Africa, the US or anywhere else. I consider it a waste of money. In my case, I have chosen to waste this money in some instances because it will facilitate the sale of these coins in my absence, that is, when my estate is settled assuming I still have them. But otherwise, I would not have bothered.

 

Per my prior posts, I do agree that THIS is where the market opportunity for a service like SANGS exists, but it does not outweigh the marketability factor.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

In my view

 

Hi John

 

I hear what you are saying but here's the problem.

 

In my view the slabbing of coins by NGC and PCGS has become a money making operation based on the premis you state in your post above - ie it adds credibility to the coin at the time of sale.

 

I have heard of hundreds of Mandelas just being slabbed and graded MS67 by NGC without even a cursory check on their real condition.

 

This begs the question.. why get a coin graded by these companies (at comparatively great expense) when all they are doing is branding your coin with their seal of approval and a grade that might be so far fetched it should be part of the Harry Potter series?

 

What confidence does that give to buyers?

 

If SANGS do their job correctly the major market (South African collectors) will fall behind it.

 

Who gives a continental if a few American collectors pass them over - they will be the losers and it won't take them long to realise this fact. That's where credibility comes in - word of mouth - not some big self-serving promotional campaign.

 

As always in my view.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PBGold

I think people had so many of those Mandela R5s graded because they were hoping for the 'big one' i.e. a 69 or 70, so they could sell it for a ton of money.

 

So,yes for sure, its all about the money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ATOMICSQUIRREL
I think people had so many of those Mandela R5s graded because they were hoping for the 'big one' i.e. a 69 or 70, so they could sell it for a ton of money.

 

So,yes for sure, its all about the money.

 

On every local add site you can see tons of MS61-67s for sale! like they were made at home...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ATOMICSQUIRREL

i need to contact somebody regarding coins i want to purchase. they are all SACGS graded. Need some advice please....urgent

 

anybody online that can assist me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids
i need to contact somebody regarding coins i want to purchase. they are all SACGS graded. Need some advice please....urgent

 

anybody online that can assist me?

 

 

You have a PM....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri
Hi

 

 

Will SANGS give a coin grading guarantee like NGC...?

 

See this: NGC Coin Grading Guarantee.

 

If, in NGC’s sole opinion, the grade determined under such review is ultimately lower than the grade originally assigned, NGC will offer one of the following three remedies:

  • NGC shall purchase the coin from the submitter at its determination of the current market value (see below) for an example of that coin which is correctly graded at the original grade level assigned.
  • NGC shall exchange the coin in question with an equivalent coin at the original higher grade.
  • NGC shall return the coin to the submitter at the correct lower grade and pay the difference between the current fair market value (see below) of the coin at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such coin.
     
     
    Hi Edwaan, what option would you take of the 3 alternatives if you were unhappy - just for arguments sake - with the NGC grading on say a year 2000 Mandela R5 coin graded as say a MS67?
     
    KInd regards
     
    Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...