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coinoisseur

South African Numismatic Grading Service (S.A.N.G.S)

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coinoisseur

Hello Everyone

 

I received this information to post on the forum. Please do not address any questions to me as I will not be able to answer you. This posting is just a briefing on the new grading service and a more detailed media release will be forthcoming. All I know is that the grading service has the backing of SAAND and all the Numismatic Societies and Associations in South Africa.

 

 

 

Coin Grading System for South Africa

 

 

“South African Numismatic Grading Service” (SANGS)

 

 

 

1st June 2011

 

The Need For a Local Grading Services.

 

Over the past four years it has become only too apparent to the researchers that there is an urgent need to establish a credible, reputable numismatic grading service, to service the South African market.

The majority of buyers that purchase numismatics through mediums like BidorBuy etc. have expressed the opinion that they feel far more comfortable in purchasing an item that has been graded and slabbed. They are assured that the offered item is of the stated quality and grade, and the risk of buying a sub-standard item that might have been incorrectly or falsely graded, is greatly reduced when buying an officially graded, slabbed and sealed coin.

 

The situation has been extensively researched and “South African Numismatic Grading Service.” (SANGS) has been established. Plans are to start providing this service shortly and proper media release will be forthcoming including contact details, website details, and how to submit a coin etc.

 

To compete with the well known companies NGC and PCGS, everything that is proposed has to be at the same level if not better than what already exists.

 

A little brief on what to expect

 

Process when coins are received for grading.

 

Ø Coins are received for grading only at registered, authorised and approved “dealers” who are appointed after scrutiny and meet criteria.

Ø Due to the risks involved the movement of coins from one location to another to be kept to a minimum.

Ø If there are any noticeable features or defects like rim bumps or scratches on the coins, this should be noted on the receipt issued, as well as being pointed out to the owner.

Ø This is all done to prevent any dispute regarding the condition of the coin on receipt.

Ø The exact mass and diameter of the coin is noted.

 

Grading of coins.

 

Procedure.

Ø The coins are viewed and inspected by a panel of at least two “experts” and their grading and findings are noted.

Ø Their decisions are then reviewed by a third “Grader” who, upon confirmation, will sign the graders worksheets.

Ø Should the adjudicator’s grading differ from the first two grader’s decision, then the coin will be referred to another grader or another panel.

Ø Total consensus has to be reached fore a final grade is decided upon.

Ø Both the International grade and the equivalent Sheldon Scale grades will be present of the detail of the coin. e.g. EF+ (AU55)

 

 

 

 

Grading System.

 

The international recognised traditional grading system used in South Africa, the United Kingdom and Europe has been used for many years. The Sheldon grading system used in the United States by PCGS and NGC is rapidly gaining international acceptance. The two systems of grading that are currently in use need to find common ground. It is therefore essential that these grading systems are integrated in order to maximise the flexibility of both systems and provide an accurate grade. The future credibility and success of the project will hinge around the quality, credibility and efficiency of the grading process. It is therefore absolutely essential to ensure consistency in the process.

 

Coin “Graders”

 

Ø The expert in the field of coins and tokens of Southern African origin are resident in South Africa, and they are the obvious choice for the panel of graders required for this operation.

Ø Only recognised “experts” in the field will be used to perform this function.

 

Encapsulation

 

Ø Coins will be encapsulated in clear acrylic capsule that includes all the relevant details.

Ø The capsules will be rendered “tamper proof” by sealing them via an ultrasonic welding system.

 

Backing and Approval

 

Recognised, organised numismatic bodies like, The National Numismatic Society, The Natal Numismatic Society, The South African Numismatic Society and the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers have indicated their support to the concept.

 

The bottom line to the proposal is that the system will be run in a transparent, ethical, efficient and reliable manner in accordance with the principles and “Code of Ethics” as proposed by the above mentioned societies and associations.

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Pierre_Henri

Thank you Anthony

 

Seems like they have all their ducks in a row.

 

Regards

 

Pierre

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jwither

"They are assured that the offered item is of the stated quality and grade, and the risk of buying a sub-standard item that might have been incorrectly or falsely graded, is greatly reduced when buying an officially graded, slabbed and sealed coin."

 

This statement "greatly reduced" is true but in my opinion the use of "assured" is not. I do not consider this true of any service, including NGC and PCGS. Coins in NGC and PCGS holders are occasionally "cracked out" and resent for grading. And when they are, it is not uncommon for the coin to come back with a different grade, especially if sent much later than the original submission. The reason for this is that grading is an art and not a science. Opinions may or do differ between graders at the same service, between grading services and even more so over time as market preferences change (e.g., toned versus "white" coins). I would say it is more true of "problem coins" but even then coins are rejected (aka, "details" graded) and later numerically graded or vice versa.

 

"The international recognised traditional grading system used in South Africa, the United Kingdom and Europe has been used for many years. The Sheldon grading system used in the United States by PCGS and NGC is rapidly gaining international acceptance. The two systems of grading that are currently in use need to find common ground. It is therefore essential that these grading systems are integrated in order to maximise the flexibility of both systems and provide an accurate grade. The future credibility and success of the project will hinge around the quality, credibility and efficiency of the grading process. It is therefore absolutely essential to ensure consistency in the process."

 

The last two sentences are unquestionably true, but I will be interested to know how the "convergence" will be implemented. Personally, I doubt that it will be any more successful than the application of either the Sheldon scale or the international system. The Sheldon scale MS grades provide the appearance of an accuracy that does not actually exist. And in my experience, the international system has not been applied any more consistently from the auctions I have seen or bought from either.

Edited by jwither

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flipvs

See'ing the Grading Service almost up and running, I would like to know if only registered "dealers" will be able to send coins in for grading?

What is the possibility that serious collectors might be able to do the same?

Regards

Flip

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Pierre_Henri

Hi Flip

 

As far as I know, all collectors (not only dealers) will be able to send their coins for grading to SANGS.

 

I saw a test slabbed SANGS coin today and it was more than professionally done - really a wonderful start to great things to come.

 

My skepticism really turned to optimism and I have only positive feedback at this stage. I truly hope and trust that this great SA numismatic endeavour will benefit the whole South African coin collectors community.

 

Pierre

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kimbo11

Hi

 

Any news on SANGS?

 

I bought a coin graded by SACGS and through all the posts regarding SACGS i am a bit sceptic but thought when SANGS is up and running i want to sent this coin for re-grading.

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

That is freakin Awesome, i have loads of coins to send for grading!!!!:razz:

Will they have branch in KZN?

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ZARBOY

Hi

 

Two branches. One in Cape Town and one in Johannesburg. Still beats sending coins all across the World to USA.

 

Grading will be opened to the public from January 2012. We should see coins popping onto the BOB scene very quickly.

 

A full release will be made by SANGS very soon regarding contact numbers, submission procedures etc...

 

Really something to be excited about, professional grading, quick turnaround time and a reputable company.

 

Regards

 

Thomas

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

Thats nice, we will save a lot of money grading coins locally and that means a better online selling price as well. Everybody Wins!!!

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EWAAN Galleries
Hi

 

Two branches. One in Cape Town and one in Johannesburg. Still beats sending coins all across the World to USA.

 

Grading will be opened to the public from January 2012. We should see coins popping onto the BOB scene very quickly.

 

A full release will be made by SANGS very soon regarding contact numbers, submission procedures etc...

 

Really something to be excited about, professional grading, quick turnaround time and a reputable company.

 

Regards

 

Thomas

 

 

Hi Thomas

 

I don't think you can put SANGS on the same level as NGC and PCGS as yet. Time will tell but SANGS will only be recognized once the big auction houses start putting the SANGC graded coins up for auction. This could take a few years. It will not happen overnight. Also strange that dealers will be grading the coins. It was mentioned earlier that Brian Hern himself will grade. That may be an issue we all know that...!

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

Durban always gets a kick in the teeth with everything!

 

Im moving to JHB!!!

 

Heyyyy Whatkind!!?:razz:

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EWAAN Galleries

Who owns SANGS?

 

Hi

 

 

Does anyone know who own SANGS?

 

Do any coin dealers have a share in it????

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ATOMICSQUIRREL
Hi Thomas

 

I don't think you can put SANGS on the same level as NGC and PCGS as yet. Time will tell but SANGS will only be recognized once the big auction houses start putting the SANGC graded coins up for auction. This could take a few years. It will not happen overnight. Also strange that dealers will be grading the coins. It was mentioned earlier that Brian Hern himself will grade. That may be an issue we all know that...!

 

Is this True...?

then i will rather stick to NGC and PCGS:colbert:

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kyle2

Surely they can't be worse than that Cape Town crowd........

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EWAAN Galleries
Is this True...?

then i will rather stick to NGC and PCGS:colbert:

 

 

Yes of course... That is the TRUTH..... Only once Heritage, DNW, Stacks...etc....start selling these coins then will they get recognition worldwide... Time will tell but for now SANGC is just the same as SACGS (We all know what happened to SACGS)

 

If coin dealers are involved this is unfair... NGC staff are not allowed to buy, sell or even collect any coins..

 

You can either be a coin dealer or a coin grader... Can't be both - HYPOCRISY!!!!

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

I agree with you 100% Ewaan that is ridiculous!!!

Coin dealers grading their own coins....

They would be like Numismatic Gods!

What is stopping them from putting their hands in the cookie jar!

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi

 

Exactly my point.... We purchased many coins from Brian Hern which he over graded.... Give you one example. He sold us a 1896 Pond Choice UNC (His Words). That Coin graded AU55 at NGC......

 

Now I say a coin grader (not dealer) is not perfect also.... Similar to a Golfer. They can't hit the perfect shot everyday... These coin dealers can "Hit Hole in ONE" as it will benefit them right??

 

So if no coin dealers are involved at all then we can support SANGC.... Else they are just hypocrites looking for new ways to make money....(AND THEY CALL THEMSELVES NUMISMATISTS)

 

Stick with NGC and PCGS.... They are recognized worldwide...

 

We can assist if anyone needs help with grading at NGC or PCGS.... And NGC is Cheap... Especially on Bulk Submissions....

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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ATOMICSQUIRREL

Didn't he make enough *kaching* on his books?

That was the Last time i use my Hern book as a guideline for my coins...:razz:

 

They are all Bloody Car Salesmen!!

 

I will keep in touch about those coin grading bulk submissions, Ewaan thanks.

 

Ps.This is almost as bad as the information bill!:razz:

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi

 

Watch how much money the first SANGC coins are going to sell for... They gonna hit records. Dealers will advertise them as one and only coins....etc.....

 

SAME THING HAPPENED WITH THE SACGS COINS UNTIL THE BUYERS REALIZED WHAT THEY WERE BUYING.... AND ALL THESE COINS WILL BE MODERN COINS....

 

I don't think any serious ZAR or Union collector would like their collection in SANGS holders......

 

SO watch them grade a whole lot of modern coins only - it is just an extra business thats all....

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Zelf

I would like to know if their grading is going to be accepted worldwide.

I bought an American coins that was graded by some "fong kong" company that was not a "known" company.

The coins is worth more out of the grading capsule than in it.

 

When NGS accept the SANGS grading... I'll send them my coin collection of 899 coins for grading.

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EWAAN Galleries
I would like to know if their grading is going to be accepted worldwide.

I bought an American coins that was graded by some "fong kong" company that was not a "known" company.

The coins is worth more out of the grading capsule than in it.

 

When NGS accept the SANGS grading... I'll send them my coin collection of 899 coins for grading.

 

 

NGC will never accept them. Coin dealers have personal interests in SANGS. How can dealers grade coins? If all the dealers step down and only graders involved then only can we all support them.

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jwither
Is this True...?

then i will rather stick to NGC and PCGS:colbert:

 

The answer to your question is yes. EWAAN is right. This grading service will have to prove itself in terms of market acceptability before the coins in its holders realize the same prices or near it.

 

Will it succeed? I do not know. As a collector of SA coins not based in SA, I can tell you that I see no reason to pay the same price for a coin in this holder versus one in NGC or PCGS. The same is true of other holders whether of the many other US grading companies (which most here have probably never even heard of) or the few outside the US such as the UK CGS. What does a prospective buyer have to gain by paying the same price? My response is that there is nothing to gain and something (unquantifiable) to lose.

 

What I state here is independent of whether the coins are or are not graded as accurately or even more accurately than either NGC or PCGS. It is the market perception that matters most in pricing. Yes, even though in theory it makes sense that having South African coins graded by locals who either are or should be more knowledgeable than those at NGC or PCGS who might not grade them that often.

 

If anyone reading my post here does not believe this last statement, go read other posts on BoB. If the sentiments I see on this board are reflective of the way collectors in SA think generally, many (if not most) seem to treat graded coins like "widgets". Once the coin is in the (NGC or PCGS) holder, the typical attitude seems to be that it is the same or as good as any other with the same grade. This is not necessarily true and never has been.

 

If this grading service does succeed in South Africa, I see a two tier price structure developing. They will fetch one (higher) price in South Africa and a lower price elsewhere because international collectors will use the same logic I am describing here either all or most of the time. How much less is not possible to know because it will vary by coin and market conditions. Also, since SA coins seem to sell for more locally than elsewhere, some unquantifiable adjustment must also be made for that.

 

The problems that ALL would be grading services have are not unique to this one. These are market acceptability and volume. Now that NGC and PCGS have the "incumbent" advantage, it is essentially impossible to displace them from their market leading position unless they forfeit it through their own ineptitude.

 

Second, I also question whether the volume of submissions will be sufficient for long term business viability. If you look at the NGC census for SA coins, proportionately, the majority are the 2008 Mandela 5R in number if not in revenue. However, that I see as a one time occurrence (it was a mania) and not recurring because even for US coins, there are only a handful (literally) that have census pops anywhere near that amount.

 

Both NGC and (especially) PCGS have built their volume increasing submissions for US "moderns" such as proof sets and "First Strikes'. For a local grading service to generate sufficient submissions longer term, I believe that the number of active collectors for RSA will have to increase substantially. Is that remotely likely? I do not think so. Even though I believe there are proportionately many more Union and maybe even ZAR coins yet to be graded, the question is, how many and what market share this new service will take from NGC and PCGS? My answer is "not much".

Edited by jwither

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4kids
Hi

 

We can assist if anyone needs help with grading at NGC or PCGS.... And NGC is Cheap... Especially on Bulk Submissions....

 

Wow self promoting I would say! There are a number of NGC and PCGS Dealers besides yourself that can assist in submissions to NGC and PCGS at well below prices you offer as a dealer.

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qball
Hi

 

Exactly my point.... We purchased many coins from Brian Hern which he over graded.... Give you one example. He sold us a 1896 Pond Choice UNC (His Words). That Coin graded AU55 at NGC......

 

Now I say a coin grader (not dealer) is not perfect also.... Similar to a Golfer. They can't hit the perfect shot everyday... These coin dealers can "Hit Hole in ONE" as it will benefit them right??

 

So if no coin dealers are involved at all then we can support SANGC.... Else they are just hypocrites looking for new ways to make money....(AND THEY CALL THEMSELVES NUMISMATISTS)

 

Stick with NGC and PCGS.... They are recognized worldwide...

 

We can assist if anyone needs help with grading at NGC or PCGS.... And NGC is Cheap... Especially on Bulk Submissions....

 

Please keep the personal comments off this topic.

 

Thank you

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