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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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Pierre_Henri
Hi Rare Notes and Coins,

 

My opinion is that the coin went cheap when I look at other prices fetched for 1933 Pennies around that grade.

 

Geejay

 

I agree, 1933 Pennies are notoriously scarce in top grades.

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xsiandreas

In my opinion the economic downturn would not have a big effect on very rare coins such as the 1913 nickle. I think many investors will judge it as a safe investment or at least safer than many others. There are still many people that have a lot of money to diversify - sometimes these rare coins are bought by investment banks or companies.

On the other hand, I do think the middle market might suffer a bit as the collectors that finance their hobby from a monthly paycheck will find it increasingly difficult to buy coins.

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jwither
Rare 1913 Olsen-Hawn Liberty Head nickel sells for 3.7 Million

 

I wonder if the economic downturn would affect the price of these very valuable coins?

 

What economic downturn are you talking about?

 

If you are referring to the current environment, the answer is more or less as xsiandres summarized. By the standards of the typical person, the economic environment is poor which does mean that "collector" coins will experience less demand most of the time.

 

However, for those at the upper end of the income and wealth distribution, things are not that bad as is reflected in the aggregate economic statistics. These people have money to "invest" and some of them have done so in coins. In the US, you can get a decent summary of current conditions from coin dealer Legend Numismatics. They sell coins across a broad price range ($5,000 and up) and handle many of the most expensive US coins including those like the 1913 Libery Nickel.

 

Now if by downturn, you (or anyone else) are referring to something much worse such as an extended version of late 2008, the answer is almost certainly that coins will lose value with practically everything else.

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jwither

There is now a 1931 2/6 AU-50 in the NGC census. Did anyone else notice it?

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thats amazing to see an AU50 1931 Halfcrown on the NGC Pop report. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

 

Good Luck to the owner.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

Hello Collectors,

 

A rare Penny came to my collection recently, an 1893 1d MS63 Red Brown. It is one of only three Red Brown Pennies graded and all three by PCGS MS61(1),62(2) .For some reason , out of 173 1893 Pennies graded by NGC and PCGS , there have only been 3 graded Red Brown.

 

For ZAR Pennies, this is scarcer than an 1894 Red Brown Penny (7 graded) and the Proof Red Brown Penny (12 graded)

- all figures for both NGC & PCGS

 

I would welcome any input from other collectors about the other two Red Brown 1893 Pennies that are somewhere in the world.

 

Has anybody perhaps got an idea of rough value of such a scarce variety?

 

Pics enclosed.

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a72a7e790_1893PennyMS63RBRev.jpg.2e880eacd98628d9a782142b128180b5.jpg

58f5a72a7273c_1893PennyMS63RBLogo.jpg.51f321743a609bfe0d80721f06290150.jpg

58f5a72a788f2_1893PennyMS63RBObv.jpg.66c420f00b3ef92dd3fcb8c7f2a63c5f.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Cash in the Attic

Hello Collectors

 

A very good friend of mine sent a few of his coins to NGC for Grading recently, he recieved some of his grades on friday....the one that stands out for me is a 1929 2/ MS 65 ( Finest Known )

 

Any idea on the Value....?

 

Regards

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geejay50

Hi Cash in the Attic,

 

Thanks so much for sharing with us this Gem of a coin , a picture would be tremendous too.

 

1929 Florins , Mintage 647 695 NGC graded 30 plus your friend's one (yet to appear) 14 in MS , highest current grade MS64 (1) 31 coins graded by NGC PCGS 7 graded with only one in MS - MS65 so shares the grade of your friend's coin.

 

Comparison

1926 Florin Mintage 323 730, NGC: 14 graded Two Coins in MS 64(1),65(1) PCGS: 7 graded Two coins in MS 63(1),64(1) so 21 graded in total with four in Mint State for NGC & PCGS

 

1926 Florin MS64 PCGS sold Heritage Auctions 26.04.2011 Lot 24867 for $12,650 (R88,550)incl BP is the closest George V business strike so far sold that can compare with your friend's coin. It may be only Pop2 but there were far fewer (4) in MS compared to 1929 (15).

 

My feeling is that new Hern's Catalogue price at R40,000 would be reasonable for your friend's coin although an MS62 say 1929 Florin should not fetch more than about R10 to R15,000 in my view at the moment in this market.

 

I would welcome other opinions.

 

Geejay

 

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Cash in the Attic

Hi Georg

 

Thank you very much for the reply.....

 

I agree 100% that the coin would easily fetch R 40000.00...

 

The coin should be back in South Africa next week, i have attached a photo of the coin in raw condition ( not my best photo to date )

 

Regards

58f5a72a8770c_1929Florin.JPG.f87d5fade480363a6018a91a83fa01d2.JPG

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Cash in the Attic

Hi Collectors

 

This is another very nice specimen that was submitted along with the 1929 Florin.....

 

The 1928 Half Crown achieved MS 62...

 

Regards

58f5a72a8b852_28HalfCrown.JPG.c946dd716a71482ff22803281cccda77.JPG

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jwither

Geejay,

 

If you want to get an idea of the value of the 1893 1D you have, I would use the price difference for the 1894's which at this time I believe are about 2X. And though I have not been following prices closely for the 1892 either, I would say that this is roughtly the same multiple applied to this date also. This is a general comment since I cannot really tell how appealing the coin you have is or is not from the image.

 

None of the ZAR ID dates are scarce, except "color scarce". Even the 1893 which used to have a low MS population is not really scarce in MS. I used to almost never see them in MS five or more years ago. Now I see them regularly and do not consider them hard to find.

 

But I do not see that most of them deserve to sell for big premiums just because of that. Some yes, but most no simply because NGC or PCGS put the RB label on the holder instead of BN. You must have seen enough 1892 and 1898 RB 1D to know that there is a BIG variance in appearance for these coins, regardless of what the label says. To give you another example, I sold a 1923 NGC MS-66 BN 1D which in my opinion was really a RB (though not an MS-66). Why NGC did not give it the RB designation I do not know because it was about 25% RD.

 

Some RB are mostly RD while others have just a small amount. Also, even coins with approximately the same amount of RD versus BN can still look very different because of luster, strike and the color pattern. The better looking coins are not "widgets" and cannot be evaluated or priced to those that are.

 

My preference for RD is orange RD as opposed to dark RD. I think it looks better and it is also the original appearance of the coin when it was struck. The best circulation strike I have ever seen was the 1892 PCGS MS-66 RD which this dealer I know sold at the 2007 Long Beach convention.

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jwither
Hi Collectors

 

This is another very nice specimen that was submitted along with the 1929 Florin.....

 

The 1928 Half Crown achieved MS 62...

 

Regards

 

Both of thoese are very nice coins. And these are examples of the coins that are still out there to be graded which have not been in the census up to this time.

 

In the last week, several other scarcer KGV dates also sold on eBay. The 1935 2/ and 2/6 I believe will easily grade MS assuming they have no problems. And I think they should get at least an MS-63.

 

There was also a 1929 2/6 that was sold as an MS but it did not look like one to me. It is hard to tell from the image but I would grade it an AU-55 or AU-58 unless the image was bad or it is due to the strike.

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

If you want to get an idea of the value of the 1893 1D you have, I would use the price difference for the 1894's which at this time I believe are about 2X.

 

None of the ZAR ID dates are scarce, except "color scarce".

 

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your input. The more serious collectors amongst us are prepared to pay a premium for a colour variant in a coin that may be fairly common overall. In ZAR Pennies, the Red colour will always fetch a higher price than the Brown or Red Brown.That is particularly so in the year 1892.

 

On open auction, an MS64 RD 1892 1d fetched $9200 inclusive of BP or R63,480 - (Auction #3012 Heritage Jan 2011). Now there were several bidders who are convinced of that value and it is merely a market fact.

 

The grading numbers say the following (NGC & PCGS):

1892 1d : RD 12 RB 127 BN 818

1894 1d : RD 0 RB 7 BN 436

1893 1d: RD 0 RB 3 BN 173

1898 1d : RD 177 RB 1025 BN: 751

 

The chances of getting a Red Brown penny in 1893 are 57BN to 1RB and in 1894, 62BN to 1RB - in 1892, 6.4BN to 1 RB

 

An MS63 1894 RB 1d (pop2) was sold this year privately for R22,600 and I feel that seeing the 1893 Penny is in overall terms two and a half times scarcer than an 1893, a Red Brown MS63 1893 Penny (finest known- shared) should fetch about three times that value (R67,800) or roughly the same as an MS64 RD 1892 Penny.

 

We can feel unhappy about colour assessment awarded by the third party grading company but someone has to be the referee and at least this referee is not paid any more or less to give that colour assessment - unlike what is suspected in some sports!!

 

My opinion

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

I am aware of what you state, I just do not agree with everything you say. I too would prefer these coins and definitely prefer them over a higher grade BN coin but it depends upon the price. Let me explain what I mean.

 

First, let's take your comment on how NGC or PCGS assign the color. To pay a premium for such a coin simply because of the label makes no sense at all. And if South African collectors do so regularly regardless of the appearance even when it is not deserved, they are in the minority. In the United States, there are some such buyers presumably, but I believe it to be in the distinct minority.

 

Coins which end up in holders that are assessed improperly will ultimately end up with a poorly informed buyer who will get stuck with it and lose a substantial proportion of their "investment". This is true of color designations, the assigned grade and even where the coin has problems (such as cleaning) that were missed. Just because a coin ends up in an NGC or PCGS holder does not mean that it is "safe" to pay the same price for it as another coin with an identical designation. The (obvious) reason for this is that no actually scarce coin is a "widget" and should NEVER be bought as one.

 

Yes, NGC and PCGS serve as a better arbiter than the seller. But I can tell you that I am not going to pay "X" for any coin just because one of them gave it grade "Y". Because the coins I collect are not available to inspect in person first, I am required to buy them as I do, but I will not buy any coin without an image or from a seller I trust, without a return priviledge. Not all RB and RD coins are equal in the same grade and the same applies to silver and gold coins in the same grade as well..

 

Many such comments exist on the NGC Message Boards to support this statement. From what I can tell based upon the comments on this board, there are far too many collectors in South Africa that pay far too much attention to the label than the coin in the holder. Because if this was not true, then the absurd multiples that I have pointed out many times (and which apparently most here think are appropriate since I have seen ZERO comments to the contrary) would not exist.

 

So far, my explanation for why the current attitude exists in SOuth Africa as it does is because collectors are not as discriminating (particular) in their collecting habits as many are in the United States. Why, I do not know. One reason is probably because the coins are less available. But the second reason seems to be because many more collectors proportionately treat their coins as "investments" and are in it for the money more so than for the collecting aspect. I do not see any other explanation for it.

 

What I would tell anyone reading this post is that eventually, South African collectors are likely to take the more selective view as they do in the US. I expect to happen because many or most of these coins will end up having larger or much larger census populations than most here expect. Or, when prices stop rising for any extended period or time which happens to all coins eventually, one of the few ways to make money in such an environment is to find the better coins in a particular grade. If and when that happens, then those collectors who bought average or inferior coins simply because of the assigned grade on the holder are much more likely to be disappointed both with what they paid and what they bought.

 

Second, I do not believe that an 1893 RB ID will necessarily sell for the same as the 1892 MS-64 RD. Maybe it would but I'm not sure about it. But if it does, it will still depend upon what the coin LOOKS LIKE. I consider the 1892 1D overpriced generally and versus other ZAR, it is vastly overpriced in MS given how common it really is. But I presume this is because it is part of a first year set and is also one of the few high grade ZAR which practially every ZAR collector can acquire.

 

If anyone here compares the price of the 1892 RD to other ZAR, yes the RD are "rare" but evaluating this "rarity" as if none of the RB and BN exist is a logical fallacy. It is the same thing I was trying to tell you when we exchanged posts in discussing your 1923 RB 1D. An 1892 RD (OR 1893 RB) penny is still an 1892 (or 1893) penny and that fact cannot be overlooked. Or at least, i am not going to overlook it which is why I will probably never own one since I have no intention of ever paying this type of premium for one. I Believe that these coins deserve a premium and sometimes a big one but this mUst be considered in the context of what other like coins are also worth. For example, I do not believe that at $9200, the last 1892 NGC MS-64 RD should be worth almost as much as the approximately $16,000 the 1892 NGC MS-66 2/ just brought.

 

As for private sales, I do not believe those are reflective of actual market pricing generally. I have been involved in many such sales in the last few years because that is how I sold many of my better coins. Because I am not in South Africa, I expect that many of my prices were below market. But if someone was to provide me with any extensive list of such sales in South Africa over the same period, unless there is a comporable public sale for comparison, I would not rely upon it.

 

I have read a few posts from some others here (not you) who have used that as the basis for a price. The claim was that some knowledgeable buyer paid what I would describe as an exorbitant price and that somehow this is what the coin was or is worth. Sure, it may be what the coin was worth THEN until the next sale when someone who has more sense declines to pay such a price or anywhere near it. That is the hazard of dealing in a thinly traded market.

Edited by jwither

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Cash in the Attic

Beautiful 1940 2/6 Half Crown

 

Hi Collectors

 

This is not a scarse coin by any means....but i had to share the Beautiful Rainbow Toning.....

 

Regards

245.jpg.2d13a7788614b55a34f379c24d37be85.jpg

280.jpg.03662087fb94642a851763badc888c1b.jpg

Edited by Cash in the Attic

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geejay50

Hi Coin in the Attic,

 

That is one pretty Halfcrown youve got.

 

Here is an 1892 Penny that is going to NCS for a bit of improvement (brownish tarnish spots) It had a grade of MS66 at ICG and I am hoping it will get that with NGC after the make over at NCS.

 

Collectors, please keep the pretty coins coming. This is a Numismatic site after all.

 

Regards

 

Geejay

 

58f5a72acd1d4_1892PennyMS66BNICGRev.jpg.860e115b7824c15f11c3dd75632fce77.jpg

58f5a72ac7b40_1892PennyMS66BNICGObv.jpg.074529dee820440fa032ea69a017b9e6.jpg

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EWAAN Galleries

Take a Peak At Heritage!

 

Hi All

 

Take a peak at most beautiful coins coming on auction this December. Heritage is the worlds largest collectables auctioneer and dealer.... Heritage Auctions | The World's Largest Collectibles Auctioneer

 

The Highlights Are:

 

1892 Proof Pond PF65

1892 Proof Halfpond PF64 Cameo

1892 Proof 5 Shilling PF66 Cameo

1892 Proof 5 Shilling PF65

1892 Proof 3 Pence PF66

1892 Proof 5 Shilling PF63

1892 Pond Single Shaft MS61

1893 Halfpond XF40

1893 Halfpond AU50

1893 Pond MS62

1897 1/2 Pond MS62

1874 Burgers Pond AU55

1898 Sammy Marks Golden Tickey 64

1902 Veldpond MS63

1902 Veldpond MS64

1892 Proof 1 Shilling PF65 Cameo

1892 5 Shilling MS63

 

 

This is a just a few I have mentioned.... Many more to come.... This will definitely be a lovely auction to be part off.

 

Imagine 3 x 1892 Proof 5 Shilling for sale... Heritage says this is probably the last time ever they will see so many 1892 Proof Crowns.....

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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JOHNEL

Would be very interesting to see what prices these coins will fetch on the auction !!!

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EWAAN Galleries

Yes this will definitely be one live auction to watch..... only heritage can offer such choice stock on one auction....

 

And remember the 1892 Proof Penny that sold for R1.6 million in their last auction...

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Pierre_Henri

3 x 1892 Proof 5 Shilling for sale...

 

Good grief, I wonder if they are from the same vendor? Those three coins constitutes roughly 12% of all known Kruger Proof 5/- coins.

 

And being offered on the same day at the same auction - what a historical event!

 

Pierre

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi

 

I have personally seen 2 of them.... The PF66 Cameo and the PF63... I Have not seen the PF65. Will be a rather interesting auction...

 

There are 2 major collections up for sale. I am busy trying to get more details... Will keep you posted...

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geejay50

Hi ,

 

Perhaps those bidders who chased the Proof Penny price up have deep enough pockets to push these other prices.

 

Geejay

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi

 

There is also the following coins on the same auction.....

 

1892 2.5 Shilling Proof 64

1892 2 Shilling Proof 63

1892 6p Proof 64

1892 3p Proof 66

1892 Penny MS65 Red

1892 Penny MS65 RB

1894 3 Pence MS64 (Interesting as in the last auction they also had a MS64 - Would love to see the pictures of this one)

1874 Burgers Pond XF Details

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EWAAN Galleries

1895 Halfcrown in UNC

 

Hi

 

Did anyone else see the 1895 2.5 Shilling MS62?

 

And 1894 6d MS64....

 

This is gonna be a fun auction.......

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