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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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geejay50

Hello All,

 

Another interesting aspect of to-day's Heritage Auction was the high price fetched for ZAR MS Ponden.In a setting where this quality of coin is not often seen for sale, an MS64 1898 Pond fetched $4,312-50 or R31,477 - I paid $2512 or R17,000 in Nov 2007 for the same grade of coin for my collection to Northeast Numismatics.

 

Other examples were : an MS63 1900 Pond that was sold for $4025 or R29,382 where I sold one in November 2007 for $2500 or R17,000 on Bidorbuy, : two MS63 1898 Ponden sold for $2,300 each or R16,790.

 

All the above coins reflect on a market that has seen a dearth of higher MS ZAR Gold coins.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]counterfeit1.jpg

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1893 South Africa 2½ Shillings, First Example

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

 

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]a> Mag1.jpg

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Identical Mark at Lower Reverse

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]a> Mag2 copy.jpg

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Identical Marks on Motto on Reverse

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

 

 

 

"

 

Thanks a lot Craig,

 

Really interesting contribution and especially the pics.

What NGC does not mention though is the most obvious difference between the fake and the real 1893 Halfcrown and that is the sharp angular upper component of the "3" in the fake. More interesting in that how did they get the die for that and so far no real explanation is offered. The other marks you have so well noted are more subtle.

 

I have enclosed pics of the area around the flower and motto of the real coin (AU55) as well as the real "3"

 

We need as many of such Numismatic Postings as possible to improve the quality of this site.

 

Thanks again

 

Geejay

 

58f5a72951ea7_1893AU55Closeflower.jpg.619604aa76094b8d8a7c6179cf3a4d56.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]1973[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1974[/ATTACH]

58f5a7294bc6a_1893AU55CloseThree.jpg.c831a1abd6b1ed77202847e54a3a3a06.jpg

58f5a72956ddc_1893HalfcrownReversesgAU55exFrance.jpg.91444d2dff552b41028783c53fc739d6.jpg

58f5a7295b1aa_1893HalfcrownObv1sgAU55exFrance.jpg.83562a07d7763702c1d0e5f0660ccb86.jpg

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jwither
Hello All,

 

Another interesting aspect of to-day's Heritage Auction was the high price fetched for ZAR MS Ponden.In a setting where this quality of coin is not often seen for sale, an MS64 1898 Pond fetched $4,312-50 or R31,477 - I paid $2512 or R17,000 in Nov 2007 for the same grade of coin for my collection to Northeast Numismatics.

 

Other examples were : an MS63 1900 Pond that was sold for $4025 or R29,382 where I sold one in November 2007 for $2500 or R17,000 on Bidorbuy, : two MS63 1898 Ponden sold for $2,300 each or R16,790.

 

All the above coins reflect on a market that has seen a dearth of higher MS ZAR Gold coins.

 

Geejay

 

I do not consider either coin particularly scarce, but the 1900 is a much better value at the prices you listed than the 1898. The 1898 is a vasly overpriced coin given its availability. Probably, there are some or even many duplicates in the census but with 37 currently for an MS-64 just at NGC, the 1898 is not particularly scarce even in this grade. I presume that like many other popular coins, that the owners just choose to hold onto them. I also suspect that because ZAR is more popular among non-SA collectors than many other series, that it is possible that many of them are owned outside of SA.

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your posting. On the face of it the 1898 Pond MS63 or higher is not that scarce in numbers. I cant remember when last an MS64 was offered for sale though even if there are 37 coins graded - that number from well over 1000 coins graded (NGC & PCGS) reflects a scarce high grade fraction in a coin that has enough interest behind it to have so many graded. Collectors just seem to hang onto the MS64 coins and above. There are far more than 40 or so ZAR collectors around.

 

I have just seen a raw AU 1898 Pond sell on ebay (item 300584286699) for $1025 - that is a nice price and would be fetched by some MS61 coins six months ago. Even if you tell the collectors that it is VASTLY overpriced who is to say? - there just is such a dearth of decent ZAR gold and overall the market has a demand, the next thing is a surge in the price.

 

Its not like bullion, there is just a finite number of decent coins around and with no more being made, we have a critical supply and demand situation.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

if there was a big bargain at the latest Heritage Auction, it must be the AU53 1893 Halfcrown at $2,300 or R17,000 - that coin catalogues at R50,000 in EF . At NGC there are only 92 coins graded and 9 better. It is easily the scarcest Halfcrown in the ZAR series.

 

Geejay

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Patricia_Gert

Hi Georg,

 

I agree about the AU53 1893 Halfcrown. I was bidding via "Heritage Live" and most of the high grade coins' prices where significantly increased during the live auction. However, the 1893 Halfcrown's price did not - I actually bid on it, but before my bid went through the auctioneer closed the auction! So either there were a glitch in Heritage's software or the auctioneer closed the bidding to soon otherwise the coin would have closed for much more. At least on person (me) was prepared to pay much more for the coin than what it closed at.

 

On the auction as a whole: I expected the high grade coins to fetch good prices, but I was amazed at the prices most of these coins actually realized, just showing that the market for the real high grade ZAR coins is alive and well.

 

Kind Regards

Gert

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jwither
Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your posting. On the face of it the 1898 Pond MS63 or higher is not that scarce in numbers. I cant remember when last an MS64 was offered for sale though even if there are 37 coins graded - that number from well over 1000 coins graded (NGC & PCGS) reflects a scarce high grade fraction in a coin that has enough interest behind it to have so many graded. Collectors just seem to hang onto the MS64 coins and above. There are far more than 40 or so ZAR collectors around.

 

I have just seen a raw AU 1898 Pond sell on ebay (item 300584286699) for $1025 - that is a nice price and would be fetched by some MS61 coins six months ago. Even if you tell the collectors that it is VASTLY overpriced who is to say? - there just is such a dearth of decent ZAR gold and overall the market has a demand, the next thing is a surge in the price.

 

Its not like bullion, there is just a finite number of decent coins around and with no more being made, we have a critical supply and demand situation.

 

Geejay

 

I am aware of the demand for ZAR and now, probably especially gold coins given gold's recent price surge. And actually, because the 1898 is one of the few that is regularly available in MS, that illogically might contribute to its higher price if many collectors buy it as a type coin as I suspect. Given its price and availability, I suspect that a good number of collectors who do not specialize in SA or ZAR coins at all are also buyers.

 

I agree that an MS ZAR gold is not a "bullion" coin, but I would rate the common lower grade coins to be exactly that. I recently sold a few QEII proofs and I barely got more than bullion for them, slightly less after selling fees. The same has happened on eBay with a few others. In retrospect, I probably should have just kept them.

 

Generally, the demand for "world gold" is really weak. Certain coins like better grade ZAR are not that way but most of them are. I would far prefer to own liquid bullion gold coins than most of them.

 

As to whether the 1898 pond you cite as an example or any other coin is over priced, that can only be evaluated in relative terms as I have explained in many prior posts. Otherwise, no price is "too much" no matter how common the coin may be or how absurd the price appears to common sense.

 

I agree that the 1893 2/6 sold for a "reasonable" price. It is "reasonable" because this is actually a modestly scarce coin and not easy to find at all in this grade or one better. I do not consider it "rare" but its popularity creates a scarcity premium because it apparently is not as available as many other coins that either are or appear to be scarcer.

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geejay50
Hi Georg,

 

However, the 1893 Halfcrown's price did not - I actually bid on it, but before my bid went through the auctioneer closed the auction! So either there were a glitch in Heritage's software or the auctioneer closed the bidding to soon otherwise the coin would have closed for much more. At least on person (me) was prepared to pay much more for the coin than what it closed at.

 

Thanks Gert,

 

I had the same experience with the second of the two MS64 1895 Sixpences. That was a better coin under macro than the first seemingly brighter coin. I also put a bid through but the softwear seemed to jam. Another coin that would have gone for more. In retrospect I would have bid on the 1893 Halfcrown just for the bargain price.

 

Geejay

 

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jwither

The NGC MS-63 1923 2/6 was a relative bargain at $1495. The 1926 PCGS MS-62 6D was also reasonably priced at $950. Not a bargain in my opinion but reasonably priced.

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your contribution.

 

I won the 1926 Sixpence and am happy with the price. It has a mintage of 721 606 but only a total of 10 coins have been given MS by NGC and PCGS from a total of 35 coins graded. Comparable to the scarce 1929 Sixpence where 783 885 minted , 10 coins Mint State and 28 coins graded in total . I can recall the 1929 Sixpence fetching over $1500 on an ebay auction so $950 is cheap. It was a fast auction and I am not sure all bidders had a chance.

 

Not many if any M63 1923 Halfcrowns have been sold on open auction and it was a good test to see such a key coin being offered. I aggree that the $1495 was a reasonable price. If I did not have that coin already, I would have been prepared to go to $2000 on auction . The grading figures for NGC and PCGS are 14 coins in MS with 31 graded and the coin a shared pop2. Its a bigger coin , first year of strike and must fetch more than a smaller coin like a 1926 Sixpence of a similar grade.

 

Geejay

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jwither

I do not recall a 1929 6D selling on eBay for $1500, but it must have been awhile ago now. But in any event, I consider the 1926 slightly scarcer and would rather have it for the same price or even slightly more.

 

As for the 1923 2/6, if I were still an active buyer, I would definitely have considered it for that price. That is, if I did not bid and win other coins in my series such as the 1738 Mexico NGC MS-66 pillar 1/2 real which sold for $1610. Not sure one of those (probably the only one near that grade) is going to be available again for a long time.

 

The price of these two coins versus those realized for ZAR in this same auction is a perfect illustration of the sharp contrast in demand between the two. And actually, though I consider the price on the 1926 reasonable, I think the prices on the MS-64 ZAR 6d were better deals because the demand is so much greater. With 10 MS in the census, the difference in scarcity is really not that great and the demand for ZAR is a multiple of Union. Granted, there are currently more AU for the ZAR generally (I did not check these specifically now), but because of the price difference, i still believe there are more MS to be graded for a coin like the 1926 6d than for ZAR 6d from 1893 to 1895.

 

Today, I ran across this listing on Heritage 1878-S 50C MS64 PCGS.... Seated Half Dollars. It for an 1878-S (San Francisco mint) half dollar PCGS MS-64 which sold for $184,000 in April, 2009. I bring it up because this coin is comporable in rarity to most any ZAR or Union. It is one of the few US coins that was not "made rare" that fits this description.

 

At this time, there are 39 coins in the combined census, including 10 MS. And because of the price, I would expect that there must be some or many duplicates. Sales of even a VG-8 bring about $40,000.

 

But the more interesting part of the lot description is the statement on the estimated number of survivors which according to the source they cite is 48. Because I do not have access to their source, I cannot evaluate the methodology used to arrive at this number. And because they use a grade range of AU-58 to MS-64, I cannot guess how many more MS they think are available either. But the fact that they use a cut-off of AU-58 should be yet another illustration of how illogical the obsession with MS grades is in South African numismatics.

 

The bottom line point from these claims is this. If there are actually nine more specimens of this coin which sells for probably at least $20,000 to $25,000 even in the lowly grade of AG-3, you can be sure that most Union coins have a lot more high grade coins available (including MS) than the lopsided majority of South African collectors currently believe. Now "a lot" does not mean a large absolute number, but it will mean a large number proportionately in many (or even most) instances. And by proportional, I am not talking about just from 1 to 2 which would be 100%.

 

But however many more there are of any particular coin, the assumption that the current census is mostly complete is not proven and is certainly NOT VALIDATED by the idea that it is so based upon the current market value of these coins.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Three Gulden VOC - a true rarity

 

Hello all,

 

In the rewriting of South African History and its effects on the numismatic history as they are also affected, it is quite important to understand the scope and extent of the VOC.

 

 

Allister Sparks mentions during the time of van Riebeeck and the VOC(The Mind of South Africa),..Quote "This was the Golden Age of Dutch Civization. Its trading stations ranged from Archangel (Murmansk Russia) to Recife (Brazil) and from New Amsterdam (New York USA) to Nagasaki (Japan)...Amsterdam was the greatest comercial centre of the world ...and the VOC was the world's biggest commercial enterprise".

 

We in Souh Africa thus share in the effects of being occupied by a Private enterprise for effctively our first 197 years or nearly two centuries during which the Cape extented massively Northwards and Eastwards.The hedge of bitter almonds that van Riebeeck planted to try to isolate the VOC settlement from the Khoikhoi and the rest of Africa didnt work at all . For reasons of trade and sex (there were very few Dutch women) , there was immediate crossing and mixing of people.

 

It is only consequential therefore that we should have a space in our Numismatic History for this founding Dutch influence.

 

The reality is however, given the amount of melting of Silver that went on of VOC Silver in particular in the East, that surviving VOC Silver is confined to a handful of coins.

 

Incredibly the Netherlands West Indies 3 Gulden Coins that were minted for the Caribean VOC Interests fetch relatively higher prices and bear a WW inscription instead of the VOC , BUT THEY ARE CLOSER TO THE USA MARKET INTEREST. Grading Figures for them are much higher too.

 

Heritage in their latest auction of very scarce VOC 1 Guldens made the comment that VOC Silver coins are undervalued by Krause in their Catalogue.Yet the market was asleep semingly.

 

I have had the fortune to have a rare VOC 1789 3 Gulden Zeeland graded by PCGS, there is one other from that year and place of mint an AU53 graded by NGC. Mintage is unknown (unlike the WW 3Gcoin -1250)

 

It occupies a place of pride in my collection in the hope that the complete history is better appreciated by future generations of descendants of the beneficiaries from the once mighty VOC !

 

 

58f5a7297e1e7_1789ThreeGuldenVOCXF45ZeelandRev.jpg.f8a93bfb63b8caa49fa8b7acedd8735e.jpg

58f5a729728c3_1789ThreeGuldenVOCXF45ZeelandLogo.jpg.ee5da06061169f25497f84a9c0b39b2e.jpg

58f5a72978674_1789ThreeGuldenVOCXF45ZeelandObv.jpg.fda079b70bf52f45d10555ecfe0945d4.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

I do not know where Krause obtains their listed prices. But I would not use them to determine the price to pay for any coin. On some, they are too high. On others such as South Africa Union and ZAR, they are far too low. The last time I checked (2009 or 2010 guide), these prices were essentially identical to those in 1998.

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craigg123

jwither, i agree with you 100%.

Just for a few examples Krause lists the 1893 1 shilling at $1200 in UNC, the 1893 half pond at $3000 in UNC

and a Burgers Pond Coarse Beard at $10000. I would love to pay these prices!

 

I do not know where Krause obtains their listed prices. But I would not use them to determine the price to pay for any coin. On some, they are too high. On others such as South Africa Union and ZAR, they are far too low. The last time I checked (2009 or 2010 guide), these prices were essentially identical to those in 1998.

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Pierre_Henri

The famous GOLD Kruger Half Crown ... Any info anyone ?

 

I have just read a copy of the Third SA Numismatic Convention brochure / booklet (July 11th to 15th 1967) ; the convention was held at the NATAL Provincial Administration in Acutt Street, Durban.

 

Exhibit 31 was named "The Famous Gold Kruger Half-Crown" and it was exibited by Dr JI Sneider.

 

The newsletter / booklet (page 39) states that apart from the coin (GOLD ZAR HALF CROWN) on exhibit, the only other one (only two thus known) is in the famous Baldwin collection in London. The coin is from the late Lord Duveen and later the collection of Mr. G Hearn.

 

The article does not state the date of the coin. Does anyone have more info on this coin?

 

Pierre

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jwither

Isn't this the same piece listed under the Kruger patterns in the Hern Catalogue?

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Pierre_Henri

Somewhere someone is sitting on a very valuable coin ....

 

Isn't this the same piece listed under the Kruger patterns in the Hern Catalogue?

 

Hern, on page 354 of his 2010 /2011 handbook, mentions the issue and catalogues it as number ZP2 BUT states that only one is known - the one that sold for 3600 pounds in 1963 from the Duveen collection (Glendinnings London 1963)

 

From this info I understand that the date is 1892.

 

But the newsletter of 1967 (as a source) I mentioned in my post above states that two (2) are known - I have actually another source to back this up.

 

Wonder what happened to the other one if it really exists - should be worth anything from a million rand up I would guess?

 

Pierre

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jwither

 

Hern, on page 354 of his 2010 /2011 handbook, mentions the issue and catalogues it as number ZP2 BUT states that only one is known - the one that sold for 3600 pounds in 1963 from the Duveen collection (Glendinnings London 1963)

 

From this info I understand that the date is 1892.

 

But the newsletter of 1967 (as a source) I mentioned in my post above states that two (2) are known - I have actually another source to back this up.

 

Wonder what happened to the other one if it really exists - should be worth anything from a million rand up I would guess?

 

Pierre

 

Hern lists the date as 1892 and absent evidence to the contrary, I would assume that what you are referencing is the same issue.

 

As for the price, Hern does not list an estimate but I believe it would easily sell for more than 1MM Rand, likely much more. And unlike many other coins which I have expressed an opinion on and that they are overpriced, I think this coin deserves to sell for a lot more than R1MM as long as it is of decent quality and can be authenticated which I presume it could be if ever sold again.

 

In my opinion, after the 1898 "Single 9", this is probably the second most valuable South African coin, whether there is one or two. Here are my reasons:

 

It is the largest Kruger gold coin; If you look at the prices of coins generally, large coins almost always sell for more than smaller coins and gold for more than other metals, given approximate equal scarcity. I do not believe it is or should be worth more than the 1898 "Single 9" because it is not as famous but will sell for more than the other Kruger patterns for this reason.

 

If you look at other coins that are well known, there are many examples. The 1877 Half Union ($50 gold pattern) is listed in the top 5 in the PCGS "Million Dollar Coin Club" at (i believe) $10 million. The 1849 $20 gold (J-117) and 1907 $20 gold (J-1776) are #1 and #2. Calico sold a couple of Spanish early 17th century 100 escudo gold coins a few years ago for between 1MM and 2MM Euro each. (These coins are over TWELVE times the weight of the lagest circulating gold coins made in Spain or 12 ounces each.)

 

There is substantial foreign demand for rare ZAR. The prices of the recent Heritage coins such as the 1892 NGC PR-65 RB penny were almost certainly bid higher for this reason and I expect the same thing to happen at the St James auction which closed today. Yes, even though I do not believe some of these coins will likely deserve the prices they will bring.

 

The coin has Kruger's portrait and not that of Burgess or one of the Union portraits. This is simply another way of saying that ZAR is very popular. If this coin did not have his portrait, it would almost certainly sell for less or a lot less.

 

Another thing that does not hurt is that there are not many Kruger patterns. If all of the Union patterns were not locked off the market (in the ABSA collection), these coins would undoubtedly sell for less than any pre-Union pattern except for the pennies, most of which are really not that scarce.

 

To my knowledge, the Union patterns are all individually rare, but there are just too many of them for many collectors to collect them as a series. There are a few listed in the census, but the last sale I recall was for two 1934 1/ where they sold for about 6,000 GBP. If all or most were available, I think that they would sell for less than the regular circulation strike in the same grade given the approximate equal scarcity or even if they are somewhat scarcer. The 1931 patterns would likely sell for a lot less than a comporable circulation strike. It is also possible that in some instances where the circulaiton strike is pareticularly scarce, that these coins culd also reduce the value of the circulation strike if some collectors bought them as substitutes.

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Pierre_Henri

The Rarest of the Rare ...

 

In my opinion, after the 1898 "Single 9", this is probably the second most valuable South African coin, whether there is one or two.

 

Funny you should say that.

 

In the 1967 article, the exhibitor states (regarding the Gold Kruger Half Crown of 1892)...

 

"This coin is without doubt the rarest of all Kruger coins. As far as known, only two exists; thus making this a "RRRRRRR" exhibit! ...(...)

 

"Also shown, is the second rarest Kruger coin ... the "99" over stamp! Only 130 were over struck on the 1898 Pond...(...)"

 

 

I cannot understand how the exhibitor, DR JI Sneider did not know of the existence of the "single nine" over stamped Pond that was and still is unique?

 

Was its existence then not widely known in 1967? It cannot be as it was sold at The King Farouk sale in the early 1950s and then again in 1954 at a Sotheby auction. Maybe not many South Africans knew that as it was for the first time sold in SA (I think) by Day's Postal auctions as part of the late Dr CL Froelich's collection in 1969.

 

That was two years AFTER the exhibition of the coin (the Gold Kruger Half Crown of 1892) at the third SA Numismatic Convention held at the Natal Provincial Building from July 11th to the 15th, 1967.

 

Regards

 

Pierre

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jwither

Sometimes people just exagerate, they provide incorrect information or even make preposterous claims anyway. I gave you the example of the 1794 US Silver dollar PCGS SP-66. A significant coin? Definitely. Equal to an original copy of the US Declaration of Independence? Not a chance in the world.

 

Typically, this is to promote or attempt to inflate the value of a coin that is either being sold, that they own, or that they simply like more than others. I remember a few years ago when the owner of the 1861 (San Francisco or Philadelphia mint I cannot remember) "Pacquet" reverse US $20 gold piece took the coin on a nationwide tour. There are two known of this coin. The only possible justification for this action was to attempt to convice others that the coin was worth as much as the 1933 $20 or other more expensive and more prominent coins, which is exactly what he stated it should be worth.

 

That idea is pure nonsense. The coin has an illustrious pedigree history to be sure, but numismatically, it is in reality insignificant and irrelevant. The "Pacquet" reverse refers to the different style which is so minor that most observers, whether collector or otherwise, likely cannot even tell the difference between it and the design struck for circulation. The only "claim to fame" it really has is its documented history and that Pacquet was the artist of the Coronet Liberty double eagle ($20). Is that really such a big deal?

 

I think the prominence of a coin like the 1898/99 is due to two factors. First, it is associated with the "Single 9". And second, because it has been included in every SA catalog that I have seen, collectors are aware of it and consider it necessary for a complete set. I believe it is an important coin but it is really a die variety. And most die varieties do not bring the type of price as this coin. If I were actively attempting to complete a set of ponds, I would not consider it anymore necessary than the "Single 9" unless this set included other die varieties as well.

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Rare NotesCoins

1933 MS64RB Penny

 

1933.2.jpg.2a1abf850f0b93bc4154a2ddf842a4ae.jpg

 

Ddi some one see this stunner last night on ebay. Sold for US$980. I do think that was cheap. Only 1 coin better in this grade

1933.1.jpg.1085d138f740ab123e49144efa32f928.jpg

1933.jpg.7d3cbcc98b950786531bc9aa58ed3e22.jpg

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geejay50

Hi Rare Notes and Coins,

 

My opinion is that the coin went cheap when I look at other prices fetched for 1933 Pennies around that grade.

 

Geejay

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