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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

I am not going to be dogmatic about whether the ungraded pool of George V coins is of any size that will disturb the existing grading figures appreciably as this is trying to guess the unkown. Even ZAR has had its upsets like a big change in the 1898 Red Penny Pop report from 19 to over 166 three years ago thanks to the Sammy Marks hoard. That is paralleled by the big change in the 1923 Penny MS66 stats from 1 to 28 just over a year ago.

We are in agreement that the market lags behind in appreciating the real scarcity of coins in the Union area because they have their first interest in ZAR as evidenced by the almost total overlooking of the 1944 Shilling until as recent as 2009. I dont expect the 1944 Shilling to come close to the 1893 Shilling in value ever because there is more to coin value than mere mintage but I do expect the market to be appreciative of the relative real scarcities of coins. Pop reports are not without problems and give us only a view of coins graded at a point in time , they are much better though then the estimates of so-called experts who have no internet base.

Geejay

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jwither

Agreed. I am not trying to be difficult.

 

All I am saying is that the census must be interpreted correctly. Perhaps the length of my posts in this and other subjects causes me to lose readers in the main points, but that is all I am trying to do. And to do so, I believe it is necessary to provide specific examples.

 

Collector preference (or lack of it) and price are the two most important factors known to me. The third one for South Africa would be lack of knowledge by non-local collectors on their actual scarcity.

 

But I have exchanged many messages both here and elsewhere where I see either stated or implied decisions on what to buy and how much to pay mainly on the census data. That is a mistake to me.

 

On ZAR and Union particularly KGV, I can tell you that I vastly prefer the latter. But that puts me in the minority of SA coin buyers. And for this reason, I see no prospects whatsoever that ZAR will not sell for more and frequently a lot more than most Union or KGV, even when the later are scarcer or much scarcer. Also, though it may seem that I am "knocking" many SA coins, that is not completely true. Some yes, but most no. How I write depends upon the point of reference. Generally, I believe that South Africa coins (more Union) are better values than most of those from elsewhere, though I am less knowledgeable on them.

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geejay50

Hello All Collectors,

 

The PCGS coins that do not grade and are yet authentic are given a number following the specific coin number referring to why they did not grade.

 

This number is not self explaining and unless one is a paying member of PCGS, will not be apparent.

 

A collector has asked me to give a breakdown of the numbers and their meaning with some pics showing where the number occurs on the slab.

 

The coin shown that has graded (in this case an MS64 1947 2/- , has instead of that number the grade 64 in its place.

 

No grade Number and meaning alonside.

 

91 Questionable Colour

92 Cleaned

93 Planchet Flaw

94 Altered Surfaces

95 Scratch / Rim Nick

97 Environmental damage

98 Damage

 

Geejay

58f5a727d0a37_PCGSgenuine1..jpg.2b7b3732b6ec2298d016f5fcc6970d2e.jpg

58f5a727d5e8c_PCGSgenuine2..jpg.42c7391d8c90939c21703bf758fc16c0.jpg

58f5a727da9ed_PCGSgraded1..jpg.ae697c117bede8e143062a2be4bb596b.jpg

58f5a727df8f9_PCGSgraded2..jpg.15b1588eaaf699313c4dec39c7c1d06f.jpg

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Pierre_Henri

Sammy Marks Replica’s

 

The original Sammy Marks tickeys were struck on official dies so it conforms to the silver tickeys with dots behind the Z and A, but not the R (of ZAR) and the bust of Kruger is obviously exactly the same as on a normal tickey.

 

The size at just over 16 mm in diameter is also the same but the weight (because it was struck in gold) is 2.61 grams vs. the normal silver tickey’s weight of 1.41 grams

 

Here are 5 Sammy Marks forgeries (or rather replica’s)

 

Please note that original ZAR tickeys are medal struck (both obverse and reverse are upside vs. coin struck where the reverse image is upside down)

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1a.jpg

 

First Coin: Coin struck in gold, no full stops, weight 2.4 grams, 16 mm in diameter, proof-like and frosted.

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1b.jpg

 

Second Coin: Medal struck in gold, no full stops, weight 2.6 grams, 16 mm in diameter, proof-like.

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1c.jpg

 

Third Coin: Medal struck in gold, no full stops, weight 2.4 grams, 16 mm in diameter, proof-like.

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1d.jpg

 

Fourth Coin: Medal struck in gold, no full stops, weight 2.3 grams, 15 mm in diameter, obverse fairly worn, mark on reverse.

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1e.jpg

 

Fifth Coin: Medal struck in gold, with full stops, weight 2.2 grams, 15 mm in diameter, proof-like with hairlines.

 

Here is a picture of the whole collection that I wish to sell on BoB – would that be allowed?

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Sammy1.jpg

 

Pierre

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dennrein

ZAR 1893 5 Shillings?

 

I found something baffling while doing some research in the virtual archives of the Berlin museums' coin cabinet today. Check this out:

http://www.smb.museum/ikmk/object.php?objectNR=567&size=0&content=0&side=0. It seems they have the reverse die to a ZAR 5 Shillings coin from 1893. That's right: 1893. Now my question is: Were any coins actually minted with this die? Has anyone ever heard of such a coin or seen one?

 

They also have an original 1892 obverse die, seen here: http://www.smb.museum/ikmk/object.php?objectNR=566&size=0&content=0&side=0. We all know that the ZAR dies were manufactured in Berlin, so it is highly unlikely that these are forgeries. The question is what happened with the 1893 5S coin. Did the ZAR run out of money? Did they lose interest after the debacle with the 1892 coin (single shaft, double shaft and all of that)?

 

Regards

dennrein

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dennrein

It seems the links I provided don't remain stable. If you're interested in the pics, it's a bit of effort. Go on "Suchbegriffe", then on "Afrika" and then on "680 Objekte gefunden ZUR ANSICHT". Then you have to click on the right cursor next to "Tablett 1/46" for a while until you get to "Tablett 38/46". There are two pics called "Münztechnik: Matrize Südafrika". You can click on both to see bigger versions of the dies. Believe me, it's worth it, especially cause of the 1893 5 shillings die!

 

Regards

dennrein

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Patricia_Gert

Hi dennrein,

 

Thank you for this very interesting piece of information, truly fascinating!!

 

Interesting to note that the National Museum of Cultural History in Pretoria has in its possession an 1894 5 shillings die. At the Durban coin show in 2009 they had the die in their exhibit.

 

Just wondering how many other objects of numismatic value and interest are still hidden in museums and archives somewhere...

 

Another factor is the view that, based on the old journals of the various SA Numismatic societies, the Numismatic history of the ZAR period (and earlier) only really became an area of study in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Many years after the ZAR coinage was minted. We will never know how much of our numismatic historic knowledge is incomplete of this period.

 

Kind Regards

Gert

Edited by Patricia_Gert

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Patricia_Gert

Sammy Mark Replicas

 

Hi Pierre,

 

Very interesting collection!

 

The replicas does appear on Bidorbuy from time, so I am sure they will be OK to sell on Bidorbuy. After all these replicas has been produced as replicas (I belief mainly for use in jewellery and as novelties and "fillers") and is not nearly produced well enough to pass as the real thing.

 

To make the auction more attractive you can always through in an authentic Sammy Marks Tickey ;-) !

 

Kind Regards

Gert

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qball

As these items do not contravene any of the sections of the Reserve Bank Act, they are permitted to be listed for sale as long as it is disclosed on the listing that they are replica's.

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geejay50

FAKE COB COINS

 

Hello collectors,

 

There are a number of authentic Cob type rough coins in the hands of collectors in South Africa. This is the result of some big finds on Shipwrecks such as the Johanna (8th June 1682 Die Dam Buffelsjagsriver) British Ship laden with 23000 Cob type coins. Other Shipwrecks such as the VOC "Het Huis de Kraaienstein" (27 May 1698 Oudekraal) also have been found to have these Mexican Cob Coins, highlighting the international nature of the Silver trade in the World at the time.

 

It is well known amongst collectors that the striking of the Reverse of a Cob coin often only left a partial legend on the coin and it is uncommon thus to find a proper mint mark denoting place of strike (Mexico City/Lima/Potosi). It is extremely rare to find a date on these roughly struck coins where the stamp was much bigger than the planchet and the date occupied a relatively small section of the stamp.

 

The forgers have not missed out on this detail and I have in error bought two Cob coins in 2006 and 2007 with the dates 1649 and 1654 well inscribed and bearing the mint mark OMP. One came from Phoenix Arizona and the other from Beijing China. For years I thought I had made a good buy until I was given a website of Forged Cob Coins which gave me the truth. I must share this with you so that you will not be caught out like I was.This website is www.sedwickcoins.com/fake_cobs.htm and the aforementioned coins feature as fakes amongst a large number of other Cob type coins.

 

I enclose pics of one of the fakes (1649 - weight 24.32gm) and alongside a Cob Coin that is genuine with only the "ML" showing - it comes from the Johanna wreck .It really doesnt look very special at all - weight 25.85gm . Other Cob coins from the Johanna from my collection weigh in at 25.01 gm and 23.34gm(polished).

The bottom line is : be very careful when offered dated cob coins. What is too good to be true usually isnt !!!!

 

Regards

 

Geejay

58f5a72828911_1649CobcoinObv..jpg.74671fb6be8bdbd9a0e341dcf6df987c.jpg

58f5a7282d627_1649CobcoinRev..jpg.80223fc0f1ec3da883f73138431cd7be.jpg

58f5a72831c2d_1680CobcoinObvamp.jpg.62b7d52ea8efe0f971e4c17e263bd01b.jpg

58f5a728363d3_1680CobcoinObvamp.jpg.ef400e891d8fa9fb704c9044c9d8fec6.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

VELDPOND PRICES

 

Hello Collectors,

 

I was recently asked by a collector what one should pay for an MS63 Veldpond. He also asked me whether the coin in the slab was authentic.Well all the authentic Veldponde have a 9 that has a sharp incurve to the "O" of the 9 compared to all the Forgeries made in my view and that is the quickest test as to authenticity.All Mint State coins except one that I know of have a slash just above the "Z" as well.

 

Heritage Auctions had a number of Veldponde on offer last year - in such a live international auction, one can get an idea of what is reasonable to pay for such a coin - all prices inclusive of buyers premium.

 

Lot 22924 Jan 4 2010 MS63 $48,875

Lot 22633 Jan 4 2010 MS64 $54,625

Lot 22923 Jan 4 2010 MS61 $34,500

Lot 22922 Jan 4 2010 AU55 $21,850

Lot 7399 Aug 5 1998 MS63 $2,415

 

I included the last price fetched for the MS63 coin - it reflects a 20 times increase in price over 12 years - an increase of 166% per annum!!! Just in case anybody is short of confidence in the high end ZAR market.

 

Quality,low mintage and story line fetch their price in the end.

 

Geejay

58f5a728421ca_1902VeldpondObvamp3.jpg.fbc24e52928183eb1a2f6e3e90d5efbe.jpg

58f5a728472cc_1902VeldpondRevamp.jpg.c1b0c2730163872cf6bd000d06ad5d0e.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hello Collectors,

I would appreciate it if someone could post some pictures of Veldpond forgeries for the benefit of all.

Regards

Geejay

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Pierre_Henri

Some fake gold ZAR coins or not?

 

I have the following gold ZAR coins taken from an otherwise magnificent ZAR collection that I will list in the near future here on BoB.

These five coins are all fakes and intentionally made to defraud unsuspected collectors – they will NOT be listed on BoB.

But I would really like to hear some comments from collectors on why they would agree / disagree with me that these are fakes (I am virtually sure that they were all minted in 22ct gold – the same fineness as the real ZAR gold coins) ...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/HalfPond1892.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/HalfPond1894.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/HalfPond1895.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/HalfPond1897.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Pond1900.jpg

Regards

Pierre

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geejay50

Hi Pierre,

 

The 1892 Halfpond looks almost genuine except for the tail or final serif of the "2" which has a wavy outline at least this is the one I think it is- weights can be 3.989gm,3.979gm, 4.021gm. (Authentic 3.994gm) F14 0f Eli Levine's book on Counterfeits of the ZAR. The "O" has a tail emanating from it at 1 o'clock of the O.S.- seen under 20 times magnification and there is a pimple on the S. It is a pressure cast and has a burnished apearance.

 

I have an example in my collection and have taken pics as shown and the fake with the abnormality is on the left close up and on the right of the two combined coins shown.

 

Thanks

 

Geejay

 

58f5a72871906_1892HalfpondandForgeryRev.jpg.378cea38c73f868dbc00c23c7f09e039.jpg

58f5a72866353_1892HalfpondF14Close.2abnormality.jpg.cb1a195939860fa0f492df2efcb0a362.jpg

58f5a7286b914_1892Halfpond2GenuineClose2.jpg.5e3808f1879075172e33c68599d1e06f.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hello Collectors,

 

I am sure many of you who are hard core will be watching with interest how the current top grade South African coins are fairing in the current Heritage Auction in Texas USA. this for any newcomer is where the "Good Stuff" is being sold by and large. There is a ZAR Proof 65 Red Brown Penny that is definitely a first on such a public international auction and is riding high at $40,000 with three bidders. Other coins on offer that are exceptional are: MS64 1892 Single Shaft Crown, MS65 1892 Halfcrown, MS64 1894 Threepence, MS63 1895 Threepence and much more. Many of them are Pop1 and this array of coins will almost never be seen again in an auction at one place again.

 

It is also a test for our coin market to see what buyers will come in from our country and others.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi Nickel and Dime,

 

The Bonk was a piece of copper bar crudely cut off to give a weight corresponding to 4 duits or 1 Stuiver and weighed according to Krause 23.1600gm. it was issued by the Dutch East India Company in the years 1796,97,98 and 99.It has on the obverse 1.S and on the reverse the date within a pearled rectangle.The irregular cut surface is quite obvious.It did not carry the VOC monogram.

A Bonk of 2 Stuivers weighing 46.3200 gms was also issued for each of those years according to Krause.

 

They were made in Java (indonesia ) in those years and used as small currency there during the change over from the VOC to the Batavian Republic. They have been copied and are often offered to tourists in the area (My brother was offered one in Sri Lanka). I have seen an authentic one for sale on the internet for 130Euros.

 

The "Dump" has its origin in the shortage of currency in early Australia (New South Wales)under the English East India Company, when in 1812 10,000 Spanish Mexican Dollars minted around 1800 where taken and had a core removed giving two coins where the inner coin was called the "Dump" (worth 15 Pence) and the outer so called "Holey Dollar" (worth 5 Shillings) as the first unique currency of Australia.The "Holey dollar" shown is valued at $200,000 to-day and the "Dump" at $47,000 -

Hope this helps.

Geejay

 

Holey-dollar-410.jpgDump-coin-410.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Nickel and Dime

Many thanks!

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geejay50

Hello all Collectors,

 

To add to the list of Forgeries that Pierre has kindly posted, I have an example of an Unc 1897 Z pond Forgery listed by Elias Levine as F25 . The 'Z pond' series of Forgeries cover the dates 1894,1897 and 1898. All three of these dates were made with EXACTLY the same obverse die and have the same anomalies hence the 'Z pond' label.According to Eli Levine, a VF coin was used as a model for the head seems too worn for the lustre in the field and the definition of the letters is relatively weak.

The common features of note are 1)a cut in the upper lip and 2)a cut directly in line with the lip but in the middle area of the nose 3) a prominent nick in the middle of the diagonal of the Z.

another feature is an underdeveloped beading on the reverse side : see pics.

 

These coins are often seen for sale on ebay and appear Unc. Be careful please!!

 

If you have similar forgeries, please contribute. This Forum is about Numismatics and we need your input.

 

58f5a729170f2_1897PondForgeryF25Obv1.jpg.680e28e56eea712aa560612f3ddb153a.jpg

58f5a7291bee8_1897PondForgeryF25Rev2.jpg.1117975b1beebdb9a2c8145202f86c4a.jpg

58f5a72912272_1897PondForgeryF25Obvclose.jpg.877b79b616182e12e776ebf5cfe4486c.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hello all,

 

Just a continuation of the Z-Pond forgery theme to show the difference between the Forgery F25 and the Genuine 1897 Pond (from my collection).

 

Of special note is that although the beading on the reverse of the Forgery is described by Levine as 'very' deficient to absent, in the Genuine coin , it is described as 'deficient for about 50% of the circumference' of the coin.

 

So the main feature that distinguishes the genuine coin from the fake is really the cut on the nose and lip as well as the cut across the middle of the diagonal of the Z. There are other features like other cuts on the Z of the forgery, coin size of forgery bigger than Genuine etc.

 

Unfortunately the sellers of such forgeries on ebay dont give a picture that has sufficient resolution to see these flaws (willfuly?)

 

Your input will be most welcome. This is a section devoted primarily to Numismatics.

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a72930849_1897PondMS63Rev.jpg.e3667ec9d7df9efca789f8d5e60c265e.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]1960[/ATTACH]

58f5a729216cf_1897PondMS63Logo.jpg.be6f3bd6d50365681aa718c83bd86183.jpg

58f5a72926b6e_1897PondMS63Obv.jpg.9c8b53ac82249b97d0c90971c7aeb145.jpg

58f5a7292ba72_1897PondForgeryF25Obvclose.jpg.f6852988eeae5a6780cbcfecb236a43f.jpg

58f5a7293574d_1897PondForgeryF25Rev2.jpg.2282881e4c8fc6155c60066bc1d4507c.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hello all,

 

In the last two week, PCGS has graded their first Griqua 10 Pence, one of the first coins made for an Indigenous Group of people in South Africa.

 

It is one of the very few examples worldwide of Missionary coinage. The missionary Campbell without the permission of the London Missionary Society had these coins struck for these people who lived in the Klaarwater area of the Northern Cape (near Philliolis) by the well known die maker Halliday in the United Kingdom. These coins are four in number namely the two Copper coins Quarter and HalfPence as well as a Five Pence and 10 Pence made from Silver. I have now all four graded in my collection and all except one show varying signs of wear compatible with circulation at the time.

 

Very few coins were made and corrosion is typical of the Copper coins. Seven 10 Pence have been graded by NGC and this is the first one graded by PCGS as I said before. They fetch prices far higher than the more common Lauer Pattern Griqua Coins that were made around 1889 in Germany as trial currency examples.

 

This is a Numismatic website, you are most welcome to contribute anyting that will further the interest of Numismatics.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a729453af_1815GQT10PenceXF45Rev.jpg.ce83b33155c1c71976dea527effb0fb2.jpg

58f5a7293a9bd_1815GQT10PenceXF45Logo.jpg.0451168670b3419af230b92c886c3e74.jpg

58f5a7293fd91_1815GQT10PenceXF45Obv.jpg.77234a60a5ce71f1783d0e244a8a0982.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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craigg123

Hi all. Just something interesting i came across in the NGC newsletter regarding 1893 2.5 Shilling fakes.

 

"

Authenticators often look for characteristics (such as marks) that repeat on multiple coins to assist in identifying counterfeits. It is virtually impossible for two genuine coins to have marks in the exact same locations, so if two coins show identical abrasions there is a very good chance that they are fake. NGC recently received two 1893 South African 2½ shillings that showed a number of repeating depressions that helped prove these coins were counterfeit.

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]counterfeit1.jpg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1893 South Africa 2½ Shillings, First Example[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

When counterfeiters make fakes, they frequently make a die using a genuine example. The details of this coin, including all of its marks and other imperfections, are then transferred onto the die or mold. The counterfeits that are subsequently struck will all show the exact same marks. While it is true that there is one genuine example that has all of these abrasions, every other coin that shows those flaws will be a fake. Depressions (a term used by authenticators to describe marks on counterfeits) that repeat on two or more coins are evidence that the coins are counterfeit.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]Counterfeit2%20copy.jpg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]1893 South Africa 2½ Shillings, Second Example[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

The two counterfeit 1893 South African 2½ shillings submitted to NGC possess many identical depressions. Rather than point out every flaw with these two coins, in this article we highlight two areas of the lower reverse that show particularly obvious marks. The first pair of magnified images shows a long depression below the flower that appears on both examples. The second set shows three prominent marks in the banner that are seen in the same areas on each coin.

 

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]SA%20Mag1.jpg%20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Identical Mark at Lower Reverse[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]SA%20Mag2%20copy.jpg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Identical Marks on Motto on Reverse[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

Repeating depressions are common features of counterfeits, and many of the ones that appear on different United States issues are well documented. Several counterfeit detection books show some of the most commonly seen fakes and what marks a numismatist should look out for. NGC also maintains its own internal database of these characteristics as they are identified.

"

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EEND

Hi Georg

Proof 65 Red Brown Penny that is definitely a first on such a public international auction and is riding high at $40,000 with three bidders. Look at the ms65 1892 penny on Heritage closing soon - $65000. Regards Neels

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Algreco

The current bid on the coin is now officially $189,750.00 (with BP). Here is the link for anyone that is interested in viewing this glorious specimen: South Africa: Republic Proof Penny 1892,... South Africa

 

I was also amazed to see a BUNC 1892 Penny (graded MS65RB by the NGC) sitting with a bid of $8,050.00. Here is the link:South Africa: Republic Penny 1892,... South Africa

 

Comes to show that rare numismatic items always come up trumps in trying times.

Edited by Algreco

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geejay50

Hello all,

 

The sale of the Proof 65 1892 RB Penny will be an example that will support future ZAR Penny prices. With the uncertainty caused by the ANCYL and their economic outlook, one is not surprised to see a flight of capital into tangible assets like high quality coins.

 

Other noteworthy coins that were on offer were the two 1895 threepences MS62 and 63. That coin is the scarcest circulated ZAR threepence in Mint State with only 13 coins having achieved that compared to the 1894 threepence, which has a Mint State number of 19 coins.The overall scarcity favours the 1894 threepence with 122 coins graded between NGC & PCGS compared to 164 , 1895 Threepences. For collectors intent on getting Mint State, it is harder to find that in 1895 than in 1894.

 

Geejay

 

 

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