Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

Recommended Posts

Pierre_Henri

1925 2/- vs 1926 /-

 

When comparing the scarcity of the 1926 2/- vs. that of the 1925 2/- , based ONLY on their appearance in the thousands upon thousands of “melt” Union of SA of coins I go through on a very regular basis, I can honestly tell you that there is no comparison.

 

The 1926 florin is a scarce coin, make no mistake, but they do turn up (albeit very irregularly) from time to time in lower grades.

 

But I have NEVER found a 1925 Florin from searching though tens of thousands of Union silver.

 

I have once or twice found, just as an example, a 1950 Florin, quite a few 1926 shillings and half crowns, plenty of 1925 wreath tickies, a few 1947 Pennies, 1944 to 1946 Shillings, etc,

 

But the 1925 Florin has NEVER turned up.

 

In top grade, they must truly be rare.

 

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Patricia_Gert

Good day Gents,

Firstly thank you for a fascinating and very interesting post!!

I used to mainly collect ZAR, but with the better items I need to upgrade my collection becoming either unavailable or simply too expensive, I started building my Union collection.

Before this informative post, I never realised that the 1947 Penny is a scarce coin, especially with Brian Hern listing it at only R750 in Unc. I recently send a 1947 penny to NGC, which were graded MS62BN.

I also acquired a 1943 Sixpence which graded MS65, I know it is not a scarce coin but at this stage it is the best at NGC.

Any opinion on the value of these two coins would be appreciated.

I attached some pictures, sorry the pictures are not the best quality, but it is always difficult to capture the beauty of a coin in pictures.

Kind regards

Gert

58f5a7257d2cb_19471DMS62..jpg.44f52e2ecdefdc9c03d15e9c5587dd7f.jpg

58f5a725817d7_19436dMS65..jpg.0eb0dbcb51a019ba95eb614e30981943.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Algreco

Your 1947 would easily realise a price of anything between R1,500.00 to R2,500.00 - The 1947 Penny is a very tough coin to acquire in mint state, and with time, the coin will appreciate in value. Additionally, your 1943 sixpence seems to be a superlative specimen, with a beautiful satin mint sheen. I think anything over R3,000.00 would be a fair price for this type specimen.

 

I am basing pricing exclusively on what I would pay for these coins under current market conditions.

Edited by Algreco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
When comparing the scarcity of the 1926 2/- vs. that of the 1925 2/- , based ONLY on their appearance in the thousands upon thousands of “melt” Union of SA of coins I go through on a very regular basis, I can honestly tell you that there is no comparison.

 

The 1926 florin is a scarce coin, make no mistake, but they do turn up (albeit very irregularly) from time to time in lower grades.

 

But I have NEVER found a 1925 Florin from searching though tens of thousands of Union silver.

 

I have once or twice found, just as an example, a 1950 Florin, quite a few 1926 shillings and half crowns, plenty of 1925 wreath tickies, a few 1947 Pennies, 1944 to 1946 Shillings, etc,

 

But the 1925 Florin has NEVER turned up.

 

In top grade, they must truly be rare.

 

Pierre

 

What you just stated is consistent with what I just said, unless you left something out that you can add later. But the availability of lower grades does not necessarily translate into much higher scarcity in absolute terms in higher grades.

 

Of these scarcer dates you have identified, what was the typical grade? What was the best grade? My guess is that for the KGV, it was probably from AG-3 to maybe F-12. And for the KGVI, mostly VF and lower with maybe none better.

 

If this is correct, I do not see this having much if any impact on the prices of higher graded coins, especially for MS such as the 1925 or 1926 2/. That is, unless South African coin pricing comes to resemble that of the US across the grade spectrum. You can read my last post in "proof vs uncirculated" for more details.

 

Once I hear your reply, if you want me to, I can attempt to "dig up" some comporable examples from the US which would resemble what you just described for these two coins. I do not believe there are many but there must be some. What I would expect to see is that the price of the scarcer one in lower grades is much higher but not in higher grades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Gert,

 

Thanks for your contribution. It is valued indeed.

 

The 1947 1d has had 18 coins of all colours graded at NGC - 5 BN AU55(1),58(1),MS62(1),63(1),64(1) .... 10 RB all in MS and 3 RD all in MS.

at PCGS, only one coin has been graded an MS63RB so far.

By contrast , there have been 77 Proof Pennies graded at NGC alone for 1947.

 

You have one of only three BN coins that have achieved MS - well done.

 

Serious collectors know the low mintage as I said before and would tend to send every coin they find for grading (hence the AU55 and 58). Hence the deduction that graded figures may not be comparable with more common coins of high mintage where collectors only send the best for grading.

 

I dont have a BN coin in my collection but I won the only PCGS RB coin on ebay last year for $297 incl postage (R2101) so you are close Nick in your estimation of price - perhaps R3000 because of the few MS coins in BN.The thumbprinting on the Obverse is striking in particular.I was also lucky on a RD coin last year but I cannot find the price. It really is a gem coin. See pics:

 

Your sixpence is brilliant too and surpasses my MS64. Congratulations!!!

 

Geejay

58f5a725864d1_1947PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.4093f0637fc392afba2344786d9df18e.jpg

58f5a7258b295_1947PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.eb55763401a78c1245527b8f3f4c40dc.jpg

58f5a7258fe3a_1947PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.2a1900566173fcb53fbfed7d8acf97c6.jpg

58f5a725949cd_1947PennyMS64RDamp.jpg.923d40f3ad71e19079835d420c10d781.jpg

58f5a72599393_1947PennyMS64RDamp.jpg.b9b66218714a5c765aedc8438e377dac.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

I once did some research on a finest known (unshared) US gold MS66 $5 from I think 1877 or thereabouts and the price it fetched on a Heritage Auction. That price was about 10 times what an MS61 fetched in the same Auction site two years before.That may be anecdotal and may not apply to all given the capriciousness of buyers but would you say this is fairly common in such finest known coins?

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

1925 Florin vs. 1926 Florin

 

What you just stated is consistent with what I just said, unless you left something out that you can add later. But the availability of lower grades does not necessarily translate into much higher scarcity in absolute terms in higher grades.

 

I must really disagree with you : Cliff van Rensburg once told me that as a thumb suck average, for every (Union Silver) 1000 coins in F (pick any date) you will find 100 in VF, 10 in EF and 1 in Uncirculated.

 

And the difference between the two dates (Union Florins) is that for the 1925 Florin, only 15% of the number of 1926 dates had been struck

 

Obviously, like I think you have stated before, collectors will notice low mintage dates from the very start and "put away" those dates in their collections, but for some or other strange reason, I do not "see" that in the many collections I have gone through in terms of high quality grades for these rare coins.

 

Of these scarcer dates you have identified, what was the typical grade? What was the best grade? My guess is that for the KGV, it was probably from AG-3 to maybe F-12. And for the KGVI, mostly VF and lower with maybe none better.

 

Yes, that is about it, but there are some amazing surprises - I have just seen an EF+ to UNC 1946 shilling (had no time to loop magnify it) coming from a mostly ZAR collection that was just amazing. We are talking Union here, but the ZAR collection itself, formed by a collector in 1970s, will take your breath away - there are surely some top ZAR ungraded silver still out there - but that is another story.

 

If this is correct, I do not see this having much if any impact on the prices of higher graded coins, especially for MS such as the 1925 or 1926 2/. .

 

It’s difficult to comment on that, as I have lost my password connection to the NGC grading stats, but my gut feeling is that you may be wrong (if you imply that in higher grades there is not much scarcity- difference between the two dates)

 

The 2/- 1925 date in high(er) grade(s) must be much scarcer than the 1926 date. And if it is true that the ration is approx. 1 - 1000 for an unc, I think their availability is even scarcer than I think in higher grades.

 

Could someone please post the NGC / PCGS figures regarding the 1925 and 1926 Florins as I might be red faced after this post!?

 

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pinkx

1931 Half Crown

 

Although I am not a serious collector of Union coins, I am fortunate enough to own a 1931 Half Crown. It was purchased from a Johannesburg dealer a number of years ago, and it came in an NGC body bag "Improperly Cleaned". The pictures attached where taken at night, using a flash etc. so I know they are not of the best quality. What would the serious Union collectors out there estimate it's value at ???

Cheers

Steve

100_0054..jpg.1d5514c1c5883d305d3a794f9c521756.jpg

100_0052..jpg.9db4fdba14727e2f500cf462a7dd2ce6.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Hi Ernesto,

 

I once did some research on a finest known (unshared) US gold MS66 $5 from I think 1877 or thereabouts and the price it fetched on a Heritage Auction. That price was about 10 times what an MS61 fetched in the same Auction site two years before.That may be anecdotal and may not apply to all given the capriciousness of buyers but would you say this is fairly common in such finest known coins?

 

Geejay

 

My opinion is that there is no "typical" multiple at all. I am not trying to evade your question, it is just that the premium varies depending upon the coin. I would have to check that specific coin to see how my opinion fits it, but here are the general rules I believe apply:

 

"Conditional " rarity grades on US coins are MUCH HIGHER than on South African coins MOST of the time. And in the US, you will NOT see "conditional" rarities, where they exist in "lower" MS grades, sell for exhorbitant premiums to their lower graded counterparts. "Low" MS is subjective but I cannot think of a single instance where this exists with US coins.

 

You will not see this because US buyers are not going to pay a big premium for a coin just because it is the highest grade when that grade is "low". If the coin is "scarce" or "rare", then you are going to see a price structure like I showed you for that 1877 IHC. I could show you many other coins like that if you want more examples. An immediate one is the 1796-1797 "Small Eagle" reverse half dollar which had a combined mintage of 3,918 and may have as many as 300 estimated survivors. NEN sold a 1797 NGC G-4 for $41,500 recently. This price is 'retail" but without checking specifics, my guess is that an AU probably sells in the vicinity of $300,000 and one of the few low grade MS maybe for $500,000. The highest grade is a single "Specimen" or SP-66 and PCGS estimates its value at $1.25MM.

 

The premiums also vary by the value of the coin. So on higher value coins such as I just covered, a really expensive coin like this one will have a very narrow premium throughout the grade spectrum. I would estimate that on a coin like the 1926 2/, a G-4 (if one was available) would probably sell for slightly more than the slab fee because no one really wants it enough to pay any premium. This versus the $12,650 for the MS-64.

 

On more affordable but "key" dates such as the IHC, you can see that there is still a narrow price spread, relatively. It's basically for the same reason that there is a lot of demand for this coin in any grade, once again unlike a coin such as the Union 1926 2/ which is actually much scarcer. The difference between the 1877 IHC and the 1797 half dollar is that the latter is "rare" while also being required for any "type" set collector and there are a lot of them in the US.

 

With a coin like the 1877 $5, for which I do not even know how available it really is, I would expect the price spreads to be lower for the simple reason that it is not a widely collected series. There are decent number of collectors in absolute terms but this is only because there are so many collectors in the US. In this instance, the 'collectibility' of the series is an obstacle because the "Coronet Head' design was issued from 1838 (or 1839) to 1907. Adding in dates with different mints and you can see how exorbitantly expensive it would be for someone to buy all of them, especially in better grades. This leaves most demand for 'type' set collectors and those who buy coins haphazardly.

 

It is only when you get to coins that are either much less expensive or that are what I describe as part of a "perennial collector favorite" series that you get to really big price spreads. With the cheaper coins, this could be in grades of MS-67 but I would say almost never lower than MS-66. Examples of these coins are "US moderns" such as the George Washington quarter dollar which still circulates today. "Conditional" rarities say from the 1960's to early 1980's will sell at a premium of 10 times and sometimes much more. Some with coins like this sell for astronomical and absurd multiples in grades of MS-68 and MS-69 where they exist. The demand for these coins is significantly driven by "Registry Set" collectors who are competing for the "best" set with NGC or PCGS based upon the number of points which these competitions award.

 

Moving on to the "perenial collector' favorites, an example of a "key" date with abig premium is the 1886-O (New Orleans mint) Morgan dollar. This coin sold for $15 in VF (more now due to the silver price presumably), about $7000 in MS-64 and the last sale I saw for the MS-65 was $161,500. Maybe there is a single MS-66 for this coin but one or both grades can be considered "conditional" rarities for illustrative purposes.

 

Every once is awhile, premiums like this exist, but not often. The reason for this is probably that the Morgan dollar is a big "investor" coin and their are a lot of people with "big" money who pursue this series. But it is the exception and absolutely not the norm.

 

You may remember a prior post here on this forum where there was a chart of the price multiples by grade. I do not remember the specifics but my recollection is that it purported to demonstrate the price increments that should be applied by grade.

 

Well, my comment to that is that NO ONE should use that as a 'general rule of thumb" because as my examples illustrate (to which I can add many more), there IS NO "rule of thumb" that should be applied to US coins and using misinterpreted data to buy South African coins makes absolutely no sense either.

 

That is what I have been trying to tell people here not to do. It is one thing if you buy the coin raw and get a "conditional" rarity. Or even if you pay a MODEST premium for it. But paying exhorbitant premiums such as those I have described in the past, such as that 1895 PCGS MS-62 pond and 1929 NGC MS-64 6P, is another entirely. The price for the pond given its actual and relative scarcity was absurd and the premium for the 1929 6P was also ridiculous. Those who do so will eventually find that the pool of greater fools has run out and that they will be left holding the proverbial bag. If you do not care about that, then that is one thing. but if you do, you might want to think what you are doing first.

 

Yes, in the US there are numerous undiscriminating buyers who also do this. But if you look on venues such as the NGC Message Board, you will see that the sentiments of most collectors, even those who are financially oriented like I am to a great degree, they are not going to pay big premiums just because the number of the slab is a higher one.

 

They also agree with my sentiments that some - indeed many - AU coins are BETTER than their lower graded MS counterparts and while they will likely generally agree with me that the MS coin should sell for more because it is more marketable, they are also likely to buy the AU coin just like I have told you that I do. What matters ultimately is the coin INSIDE the slab and not just the slab number

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Although I am not a serious collector of Union coins, I am fortunate enough to own a 1931 Half Crown. It was purchased from a Johannesburg dealer a number of years ago, and it came in an NGC body bag "Improperly Cleaned". The pictures attached where taken at night, using a flash etc. so I know they are not of the best quality. What would the serious Union collectors out there estimate it's value at ???

Cheers

Steve

 

In my opinion, you should send it back to NGC and get it graded with a "details" designation. Even though it will not receive a numerical grade, its still worth having in a slab to authenticate it. As for its value, I do not know. My opinion is that "details" graded coins are unfairly penalized in the market today for a coin like this one. I mean, it's not like the prospective buyer has either any or many other alternatives to choose from.

 

I would expect that this coin would come back today as "XF Details, Surface Hairlines" unless the cleaning is more apparent than in the image.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Pierre,

 

In a prior post, I did give you the NGC and PCGS pop for both these coins in AU and MS. These are ACTUAL data and not something I just made up. It is 5 to 2 in MS for the 1926 versus the 1925 and four EACH in AU.Others may think that this is a significant difference but it is really not. It is the equivalent of a "rounding" error".

 

I also would not put much stock in that rule of thumb either, at least for scarcer dates. Whether it is true or not for morecommon dates, the frequency with which even the 1926 2/ comes up for sale does not seem to coincide with that. There may be more 1926 VF than I believe, but I doubt that there are really that many. And if it does on a venue like Bob, then you can correct me. I have seen it occasionally for sale but only in very low grades which most do not likely care to buy.

 

As for the prices of a US coin that more or less resembles these two, I did some searching yesterday. One such example is the 1916-D (Denver) and 1919-S (San Francisco) "Mercury' dime. The 1916-D is a "key" date in any grade and the other in MS. The 1916-D is vastly more expensive in lower grades but approximately the same in better MS grades. In G-4 and F-12, it is valued at $1,000 and $2,750 while the other is valued at $7 and $12. However in MS-66 "Full Band" (a strike designation), the value is $60,000 for both. Yes, what you see is correct. These are PCGS Price Guide values which do not reflect actual sales but they are approximate. In an actual sale, I would expect the 1916-D to sell for more but the actual amount would depend upon what the specific coin looks like and not just the grade.

 

In a prospective sale of both, I would expect the 1925 to sell for more than the 1926 as presumably you do. And maybe it would sell for about twice as much in MS, maybe more. But if it did, it would not necesarily be just because of the census data I just gave you. I would expect this would happen due to its "reputational scarcity". In the US, I am not aware of a direct proportional correlation between prices realized and the census because, to my knowledge collectors and even "investors" do not buy their coins like that, even within the same series. Yes, they obviously look at the numbers but do not apply a "formula" to the price.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EWAAN Galleries

Hi Pierre

 

 

Here is the NGC Census :)

 

 

Year/Mint Den Variety Desig Total PrAG G VG F VF 40 45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 1925 2S MS

16 1133 212 1 1 1 1926 2S MS

12 32 1 2 11 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Collectors,

 

Whilst we are mentioning the 1931 series above, just to remind you of the Halfpenny and its differing language issues. The coin with the "Z" in the Zuid (the Dutch spelling), is the business strike coin with a mintage of 145 281 whereas the coin with the "S" in the Suid (Afrikaans spelling) only exists in Proof and has a mintage of only 62. The NGC grading is as follows: 45 Business strikes graded (41BN and 4 RB) with 23 Proofs gradedBN and one coin graded PF64 but with the Zuid - now that is a unique coin and has never been adequately explained. Does anyone know more anout this coin ???

Some pics of examples are shown: NGC does not refer to the "Z" and the "S" - they refer to "1/2 d" (Proof) and "Halfpenny" (Business Strike) in their pop reports and labels.

 

Please come forward with your inputs no matter how small, many of us cannot attend coin shows and have no other way of interacting with other collectors but via the internet. If you know of rare coins that are of interest in the hands of others,please try and get permission to take pics like Pierre did above - that will substantiate their existence and improve overall knowledge. If you spot a rare bird , no one will believe you without even a bad pic to show.

 

Geejay

58f5a725a87d4_1931halfpennyMSamp5.jpg.2978c19e451168a778e3c09566b26e54.jpg

58f5a725acfa2_1931HalfpennyMSamp54.jpg.7f73b9a81bd6b6c01df2ac91ca5a5d40.jpg

58f5a725b1ed8_1931HalfpennyPFamp54.jpg.c4513e8d36ccd5dcdea53546ab7d5212.jpg

58f5a725b6246_1931PennyPF63BNamp.jpg.bbc798f308f11b2fa7f61320795c28eb.jpg

58f5a725ba8f9_1931HalfpennyPFamp54.jpg.8cadb6ad1e6fa039d03158ea8cde7a23.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

Some name dropping if you please ...

 

It is well known in local numismatic circles, that the Robert Bakewell collection of the coins of the Union of South Africa (especially those of King George V dating from 1923 to 1936), has won international acclaim and is probably one of a very few South African coin collections that could currently claim this status.

But 50 years ago, there was another South African who was internationally revered for his coin and medal collection spanning from Greek tetradrachms to VOC Silver Rijders, to the (then ) modern day “Pounds and Pennies” of the Union of South Africa.

I am very privileged to own one of the coins from his collection being this one ...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1949Silling.jpg

 

I have met both his son and daughter and was very privileged to buy the coin from the family holdings a few years ago. It is not a particularly rare coin but have pride of place in my Union collection.

I wonder if anyone can guess who this renowned South African collector was?

Regards

Pierre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Can I guess?

"Heilige" David de Villiers

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dennrein

Is this one real?

 

I spotted this rare 1931 halfcrown in an online auction but it somehow looks strange to me. I can't put my finger on it. Does anyone have any clues as to whether it's a fake?

 

Regards

dennrein

 

850499946578669b..jpg.266d2581247ebb04401fce4ecc49784f.jpg

850499946578669..jpg.465897a480dff29434d738b8ba7f3c5e.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

The 1949 Shilling belonged to the late Dr Frank Mitchell

 

In the words of the late Dr Frank Mitchell on his introduction to numismatics.

 

"My final downfall came when an old family friend showed me his collection. I listened spellbound as he introduced me to his coin portrait gallery. He allowed me to hold a Macedonian tetradachm of Alexander the Great while he told me of his incredible exploits. My hand trembled as I studied the fine portrait of Alexander in his lion-head headdress. Two and a quarter thousand years ago he died - though only 33, the conqueror of most of the known world. Suddenly, as I studied the coin, the truth dawned - I was holding History in my hand!

Source of above quotation: Randburg Coins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

hi Dennrein,

The 1931 Halfcrown does look genuine to me although for that detail, I would expect some lustre. perhaps cleaned?

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

In the words of the late Dr Frank Mitchell on his introduction to numismatics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"My final downfall came when an old family friend showed me his collection. I listened spellbound as he introduced me to his coin portrait gallery. He allowed me to hold a Macedonian tetradachm of Alexander the Great while he told me of his incredible exploits. My hand trembled as I studied the fine portrait of Alexander in his lion-head headdress. Two and a quarter thousand years ago he died - though only 33, the conqueror of most of the known world. Suddenly, as I studied the coin, the truth dawned - I was holding History in my hand!

 

Source of above quotation: Randburg Coins

 

 

Pierre,

 

Thanks for finding the above quote, it captured the feeling many collectors get when they are exposed to the enormity of what has gone past in history when holding such coins in hand.

 

I am sure Dr Mitchell would be even more spell bound how the internet has given us access to coins in any part of the world and of the highest quality as expressed by an impartial third party grading company.

 

The 1949 Shilling you have came from a founding figure in our numismatic tradition. There lies its value although if one could have say a pedigree on a slab referring to Dr Mitchell - say "Mitchell Collection" , it would have so much meaning to SA collectors - regardless almost of grade ! You would need paperwork to prove that the coin did originate from his collection.

 

In 2005 when I was starting serious collecting, I came across a 1949 Shilling on ebay in the USA that was so beautiful, I had to win it. It had an NGC grade of PF67 and was finest known at the time. It also had reddish reverse toning with white raindrop type freckling that I had never seen before or since (please see pics). The obverse had smoky toning with die scrubbing marks. That was the best Union coin I had for four years up until in November 2009 when I managed to obtain the finest known coin (unshared), a Pf 68 - PCGS in a Registry set for sale overseas. I duly sold the Pf67 for R5372 although it was not easy to part with such beauty and by that stage there had been one coin graded better at NGC - Pf68. Since then, there has not been a higher grade than Pf68 at either NGC (64 graded) or PCGS (14 graded) - 9.75% of 800 minted - each coin is unshared.

 

The 1949 Shilling is not that uncommon as collectors have always looked after the proof sets and they have always been mindful of the fact that there are no business strikes in this denomination so these coins do come up in raw and graded form from time to time.

 

The chance of there being another Proof 68 seems to be getting less and less as the years wear on though, if having the finest known is important to you.

 

Geejay

58f5a72618337_1949ShillingPfamp5.jpg.f7d0543af829b433dfcb62f600464797.jpg

58f5a7261c996_1949ShillingPfamp5.jpg.d75d2cc834075cef2b0fe0da401c3811.jpg

58f5a72620feb_1949ShillingPfamp5.jpg.166dfcac6972d8d6087d37385be6a033.jpg

58f5a72625313_1949ShillingPf6amp5.jpg.7d0ffccdc79e0eae13548b18a41f3d44.jpg

58f5a7262a5ea_1949ShillingPf6amp5.jpg.fcde82f02c8820abff03e9037878112b.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

Hi George and fellow Union collectors

 

George, your 1949 1/- (both pics) are simply stunning - one takes a quick gasp when looking at those beauties I must say!

 

I have a question for all you sharp eyed collectors ...

 

Please look closely at the following coin that I have scanned (if you scroll up you will see that I have mentioned it in a previous reply in this thread) ...

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Shilling1946.jpg

 

It is a 1946 Shilling in almost uncirculated condition (there have been only two unc's ever recored by NGC)

 

The picture is a scan, and in my opinion scans (as appose to digital photographs) are unforgiving by showing you the proverbial "warts and all"

 

BUT, under intense magnification (that you cannot see on the scan) the coin has very pronounced hairlines on the obverse (not the reverse) as if someone many years ago, gave it one good once off strike with a "lappie" or something that left hairlines in front of the Kings face (you cannot see it on the scan).

 

How "strict" are NGC or PCGS about these kind of "faults" as this coin has certainly NOT been polished or "cleaned" in the original sense?

 

And lastly, would it be better to send this coin for grading or just keep it in ones collection as a GEF or a/UNC?

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Patricia_Gert

Good day Pierre,

 

No hairlines (from cleaning) are showing up on the scans, so it is difficult to say from the scans if the coin will grade.

 

NGC will tolerate some hairlines on a coin but if they deem it exessive they will grade the coin "surface hairlines". Without examining the coin under magnification with proper light, it's impossible to say if it will grade.

 

However, it being such a scarce coin, it is probably worth a try to send the coin to NGC. If you don't try, you will never know.

 

In the same breath, I must say, I prefer my coins "slabbed and graded" and I would rather have this coin in a NGC slab saying "AU DETAILS , SURFACE HAIRLINES" (or even UNC details?) than raw. :-)

 

Kind regards

Gert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Weak Strike, good grade in a scarce coin - 1947 Halfcrown MS64

 

Hello Collectors,

 

I would like to share with you a coin that illustrates a few points.

 

Firstly how a coin that really had a tiny mintage was ignored by the market up until about three years ago. I am referring to the 1947 Halfcrown business strike. Mintage 3582. I bought a raw Brilliant Uncirculated coin on auction on Bob for R800 in May 2007 and the seller at the time made it clear how really scarce this coin was. There was only one other bidder. It graded MS64 at NGC and i have never found a better one.The price to-day would be more than 10 times what I paid and there would be many bidders.

 

Secondly how weak the strike is on the coin and reflects on how a die that only struck 3582 coins can get worn out so quickly !! The necks are absent on the Wildebeest and the centre of the obverse and reverse is blurred to show really poor details amongst the full lustre.

By comparison a 1949 Halfcrown MS61 is shown with an lower mintage of 1600 - that has a much better strike and looks like the higher grade but it is not.

 

Makes one think doesnt it? it asks the question as to if the dies did wear out after say 3500 strikes, how many dies were used to strike the other Union silver coins?

 

Geejay

58f5a7262f9c5_1947HalfcrownMS6.jpg.ddaf27f6f2f4743333883f14ba155cc1.jpg

58f5a72634e26_1947HalfcrownMS6.jpg.a85a323a1b416eb2f313541382238da0.jpg

58f5a7263a0d6_1947HalfcrownMS6.jpg.b8921e2d097df6f5247edc12258ae780.jpg

58f5a7263f69c_1948HalfcrownMS6.jpg.de24e0556bfd0d4cc81c29098636afbe.jpg

58f5a726443cf_1948HalfcrownMS6.jpg.a9223da437903b2d08fdfb3b8cef75f7.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

NEN sold the 1947 NGC MS-66 (currently in the Bakewell collection) for $695 several years ago. I declined to buy it. I have seen three of these in MS I believe over the years, maybe a few more.

 

On the KGVI strikes, the main thing I have noticed is that the hair details seem to be weak most of the time. And the surfaces are frequently not attractive either, at least on grades up to MS-63.

 

On the pricing, I do not know what these coins sell for now because I have not checked BoB often and none that I recall have sold elsewhere recently. I seem to recall that Heritage sold a 1949 and 1950 (both MS-64) as a single lot for $800 plus buyer's fee a few years ago. By current standards, it is a cheap price but fully priced in my opinion for the time. I also recall seeing a 1949 NGC MS-61 selling on Bob for about $400 USD though I cannot remember specifically when.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Ernesto,

Thanks for your informative input. I bought a raw unc 1947 2/6 last year and had it graded at NGC - an MS63. I then sold it in November for R11,000 to a collector. That price compared to R800 for what became the MS64 in my collection is over 12 times more for one lower grade over 3 years.

For the collectors, the current NGC status of the coin is 14 graded VF(1),XF45(2),AU58(1),MS62(1),63(5),64(3),66(1) and PCGS 2 coins graded MS62(1) and 63(1).

I agree with you that the surfaces of this coin are not that attractive although I can remeber that my MS63 looked much sharper than my MS64 . Even an XF45 that I recently sold had better detail than the MS64. I think the die for this year wasnt very durable somehow.

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Stacks Bowers and Ponterio Auction

 

Hi John

 

I know that you are a keen 8 Reale and Pieces of 8 etc.. collector... so the coming auction details might be of interest to you...

 

The auction house in the headline are holding an auction of hundreds of these rare coins on 17-18 June at

 

Baltimore Convention Centre - ph 410 679 7000

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...