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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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Algreco
The rest go down to Fine.it is certainly much harder to find than its bigger cousin the 1928 Penny.

 

This is an understatement. I don't think people realise how difficult it is to acquire this coin in MS. If you lucky enough to be offered one in mint state state, be prepared to sell your kidney.:biggrin:

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geejay50

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your reply, I would make bold to say that there are two groups of 1928 Halfpennies - those with a full strike and those without. the ones that have gone on to AU and MS belong to the former.

What do the collectors think?

Geejay

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geejay50

Cracks in a Veldpond

 

Hello Collectors,

 

I have an AU58 Veldpond in my collection from the Remick Collection that is truly a stunning coin. It does not have a slash above the Z which excepting for one coin always is associated with Mint State coins. The latter is regarded as an imperfection in the same obverse die that came through in later strikes of the coin. These coins did not have a chance to circulate it is presumed.

 

My AU58 coin does however show two light cracks in the planchet as shown in the close up of the obverse. One across the lower part of the "A" amd another just above and diagonally across the top of the "R".

 

Perhaps this is the planchet cracking because the Mercury Sublimate was not affecting the Gold in a uniform way leaving brittle areas in the gold to crack. As I understand, Medical Mercury Tablets were used (the only treatment in those pre-penicillin days for Syphillis)

I dont accept that trivial wear caused these cracks.

 

What do you think?

 

pics are shown of the AU58 coin and alongside it an MS63 coin that I had graded for a fellow collector - no cracks there.

 

Geejay

58f5a724bdab8_1902VeldpondAU5amp56.jpg.57a012acf18c409c35bb3a8b1f66a8fa.jpg

58f5a724c2de9_1902VeldpondAU5amp56.jpg.499c0524e6c58298fbe5d14a34d82644.jpg

58f5a724c7298_1902VeldpondAU5amp56.jpg.49122bebcb0d7a1142a02117c8970ce1.jpg

58f5a724cc86a_1902VeldpondMS6amp51.jpg.4eac2e39b64a061355017d00ba13a17d.jpg

58f5a724d208a_1902VeldpondMS6amp51.jpg.84f1d367550e868a2c6f967cd440061a.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

The Lonely 1931 business strike Halfcrown

 

Dear Collectors,

 

The mintage of the above coin was just 852 and the world was in a desperate financial position following the Wall Street Crash of October 24 1929 where the US stockmarket suffered its greatest downturn in the history of the USA . The price of property fell in sympathy and the whole world was affected.

 

"Anyone who bought stocks in the mid 1929s saw their whole adult life pass by without their value get to even" Richard M Smalman

 

I have this coin in my collection and it remains the most worn coin I have ever kept. The "3" is just visible on the date and the "9" is worn off. I really expect someone somewhere in the world to find and grade a coin of better grade. Ernesto would call this coin "visually unappealing" a euphemism for damn ugly !! A friend of mine came to me in great anticipation with another "AU" grade coin only to have his hopes dashed by the cold light of my office which showed the coin to have the mirror fields of a Proof (impaired)

 

It remains the only one graded and that was some years ago in the old NGC capsule.

 

Would you pay for such a coin?

 

Geejay

58f5a724d6f6d_1931HalfcrownG6.jpg.67ac0430a42299421f8e508dfd2a109a.jpg

58f5a724dbb56_1931HalfcrownG6.jpg.428b56a39f3501fa33e67023c6a3a29b.jpg

58f5a724e0696_1931HalfcrownG6.jpg.f88633403fc2eccbe57e67a4d7b9eb69.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hello Collectors,

 

To give you an idea of how different a 1931 Proof Halfcrown is to the worn business strike , herewith some pics from my collection. Number of Proofs minted 62 , number of Halfcrowns graded at NGC: - 15 plus one Cameo and 3 at PCGS - 18 in total - a graded survival of 29%.

 

Your input will be valued indeed.Our coin market will only thrive if we have an ongoing dynamic discussion platform where every collector feels he/she is welcome no matter how seemingly insignificant the input .

 

We the collectors must take responsibility for the future of our hobby.The dealers and speculators have only profit in mind and we have had too many of those.

 

Geejay

58f5a724ea8f7_1931HalfcrownPfamp54.jpg.b7980c8d1b9716cd6b28804eebe6ddba.jpg

58f5a724ef5f9_1931HalfcrownPfamp54.jpg.fe3e6c93a0b96b7b107b83a91d66b1e9.jpg

58f5a724f3d1b_1931HalfcrownPfamp54.jpg.fa7ef14a264862045b793029c967aae5.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Geejay,

 

You are right, I would call that 1931 2/6 "unappealing". But the difference to me is that any 1931 2/6 is worth owning, something that I do not say for any other Union circulation strike outside of the 1931 silver. The same applies to that "impaired" 1931 2/ florin you sold here on BoB which I am somewhat surrprised that you did. You might not find another one. And by the way, the mintage for this 2/6 is NOT 852, it is 790.

 

Is this 2/6 by any chance the one that sold on eBay a few years ago for about $130 USD? If so, in retrospect I should have bought that coin.

 

To add some context to that quote of mine, the main reason I made this comment is not to "put down" collectors who want to buy these coins anyway or cannot afford anything better. It was to make a counterargument to the idea that even scarcer Union coins in average circulated grade have any real potential as "investments". I still do not believe that they do.

 

Using the United States as a basis for comparison, you will find "key date" and (actually) rare US coins in circulated grades that are worth substantial amounts of money. There are actually a decent number of them. The most valuable circulated coin in the world is the 1822 "Capped Head" half eagle ($5 gold) which had a reported mintage of about 19,000 but there are only three specimens known. PCGS lists the current value for the highest graded specimen (now an XF-40 but previously I believe a VF-30) at $6MM USD. It is the only one available to collectors because the other two are in the Smithsonian collection.

 

With respect to the 1931 silver, whether this one or any other denomination, yes I believe there are a few out there, but only VERY few and this applies in ANY grade. In many other posts, I have expressed the opinion that though I consider many other Union coins rare or scarce, this is really only true in high grade and even then, I still think that there are some more out there available to be graded. Not necessarily many but still more.

 

One of the things which is VERY different with the 1931 silver is that low mintage coins typically have high survival rates. I cannot say with certainty this is true for all coins but it certainly is for most US coins. The reason for this is that collectors of the time would have known of the low mintage and saved a disproportionate number of them and likely, they would also survive in high grade. An example of this is with the Liberty Seated half dollar from the 1880's. I cannot tell you exactly how many there are but a date like the 1886, it probably has at least 500 survivors (if not a lot more) out of an original mintage of about 5000. And most of these are in better grades. I would have to check the census to provide specifics but it is a reasonable approximation.

 

With other Union, what collectors in South Africa need to realize is that first, to the extent that these coins are not owned by South African collectors, the main reason why the coins are not graded is because these collectors do not like graded coins. That is the norm in most of the world and not the exception. It is South African and US collector and "investor" preferrence for graded coins which is unusual and not vice versa. Second, even with a coin like the 1927 2/6 in MS that you discussed before, a coin like this one is still really not worth that much money. It's not cheap but unless it is a grade say like MS-64 or better, it's still maybe worth between $5,000 and $10,000 (or less) and there are still a lot of non-US coins in that price range that have NOT been graded. What I would expect is that, to the extent that they exist and come up for sale, they would then be likely graded because I have seen more graded coins in British auctions which is where many of these coins come up for sale.

 

I would agree that nothing like this is remotely true for the 1931 silver. I cannot tell you what any of these coins would sell for in a public sale (it is my opinion that any private sale would not be reflective of an open market price), but its obvious that there are not very many of them, possibly only a handful. And unlike most other Union dates, even a collector who knows nothing about South African coins at all is going to know that this coin is rare. They are not going to be fooled because the mintages are known to everyone. So no decent specimen is going to sell "cheap".

 

For circulated Union outside of the 1931 silver, the other dates are still too available in my opinion for the most part for any of them to be worth a substantial premium in any grade below XF. And I'm not sure whether you or most other Union collectors agree with this, but in my opinion, these coins in VF or below are very unappealing coins. Most of them look terrible. If this is a widespread opinion, then it's going to be hard for the vast majority of Union coins to be worth what some may think they should be based upon their actual scarcity because collectors (by a landslide) are not in the habit of paying "big money" for coins they do not really like. I consider this statement irrefutable.

 

The other point to consider is what I covered in the 'Proof vs Uncirculated" thread. Going back to US coins, circulated "key dates" do bring big premiums. The problem with Union coins is that by the same standard, there are many "key dates" in most denominations. If the South African price structure were to replicate that of the US, then low grade MS might sell in the vicinity of three times (or slightly more) an XF and maybe six times a nice VF. These are "ballpark" numbers only but I think you can get a sense of what I was trying to say in that other post.

 

If say, "key date" VF and XF increased in price to follow the US price structure and especially if Union coins generally became more expensive as many seem to believe is going to happen, then I think it should be obvious that the "typical' collector of Union coins in South Africa is going to become priced out and would really have nothing to collect in either KGV or KGVI that they could complete.

 

I do not see that happening except maybe with a very small number of these coins but even so, with price spreads which are still much greater than what I described for the US.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

You are right, I would call that 1931 2/6 "unappealing". But the difference to me is that any 1931 2/6 is worth owning, something that I do not say for any other Union circulation strike outside of the 1931 silver. The same applies to that "impaired" 1931 2/ florin you sold here on BoB which I am somewhat surrprised that you did. You might not find another one. And by the way, the mintage for this 2/6 is NOT 852, it is 790.

 

Is this 2/6 by any chance the one that sold on eBay a few years ago for about $130 USD? If so, in retrospect I should have bought that coin.

 

 

Hello Ernesto,

 

To answer your question about where the 1931 G6 2/6 came from, I bought it graded on Bidorbuy in April 2008 when the big interest was in ZAR and there was far less interest in George V coins. No I did not even see the $130 coin you refer to. Time will tell us if my graded coin is the only one. Three years of increasing interest in George V coins has not come up with another one so lets wait another two.

 

The other question about the 1931 Florin (Mintage 383) - this coin came from a collection that a collector had spent 62 years putting together. I bought the whole collection in conjunction with a friend and we sold it on a 50/50 basis so I had to sell that coin.It would have been nice at the time to get someone else to buy the coin for me by mandate but that had already attracted unwarranted negative complaints from one person in the case of other rare coins.

 

I agree with you that 1931 is a special year in the minds of collectors and non colectors even. Any decent coin from that year excepting perhaps surprisingly the gold sovereign (Mintage 8 511 792), the copper Halfpence and Farthing is very sought after.The last two coppers mentioned have seen a high survival with the business strike Penny being really tough to find in Unc especially: NGC has graded 3 BN MS coins and 1 RB MS64 coin. The latter unique coin was graded and sold by me as part of the above collection.It is now part of the Bakewell collection.The best grade in the 1931 Penny for my own collection has been recently acquired - an AU55BN see pics

 

Your input about the XF40 (VF30?) 1822 Capped Half Eagle with a mintage of 19,000 a value of $6Million and a survival of 3 coins is of interest to us.The fundamental difference in size of the US economy , their stable mature market and ease of grading makes our coins look cheap by comparison even if some of ours are of comparible scarcity. Doesnt the US have a unique coin like a Single 9 where only one single coin was struck?

 

Thanks again for your input. It is really valued.

 

Geejay

58f5a725049c9_1931PennyAU55BNamp.jpg.f63227ef132dfa73308c7d3830c52ea2.jpg

58f5a72509522_1931PennyAU55BNamp.jpg.d20117d0fb39880d2435eb57cc073988.jpg

58f5a7250e0d7_1931PennyAU55BNamp.jpg.1a73441a27af66e54eb5b2894104d7e6.jpg

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geejay50

hello Collectors,

 

Some pics to show how the 1931 Copper Proof Penny looks. 19 graded at NGC (only BN) compared to 15 business strikes (2 RD,1 RB and 12 BN)

I think you will agree that the strike of the proof and the details are razor sharp making for a really appealing coin..

 

Geejay

58f5a72512e4d_1931PennyPF63BNamp.jpg.03f40c5486856b0a793f7026ae398817.jpg

58f5a725178e9_1931PennyPF63BNamp.jpg.cfa9f13e33986ad5fa089b12801141d4.jpg

58f5a7251c4fb_1931PennyPF63BNamp.jpg.234fad181357587d32df7e7ab5b82d41.jpg

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jwither

Yes, the US does have quite a few unique coins or nearly so. In absolute terms, quite a few of them. Most of them are patterns such as the 1849 J-117 $20 double eagle. Another very famous one is pattern J-1776. It is a 1907 "Indian Head" double eagle which has the same obverse as the eagles ($10 gold) and the reverse on the "St Gaudens" double eagles issued from 1907-1933. It is in a private collection and reportedly worth $15 million according to PCGS.

 

The last time I checked the PCGS "Million Dollar Club", there were 91 different coins (some die varieties only) reportedly valued at $1 million or more. Some of these are rare but others are only "rare" in an artificial, arbitrary and narrow sense such as being a "conditional" rarity. There are very few other coins like the 1822 half eagle that have larger mintages but few known survivors. And even in this instance, it is possible that the actual mintage was really much less because possibly the coins dated 1821 or 1823 were minted in 1822 and recorded in that year. It's the same thing that I believe happened with one of the ZAR pennies,; I think the 1893. (No one really knows because a huge number of the early US gold were melted and the recordss though much better than elsewhere, are not perfect.)

 

To me, among the most impressive rarities among US coins is probably the 1802 half dime (five cent). This coin has a reported mintage of 3,060 but reportedly has 40 known survivors but none better than AU-50 (I think). This coin is actually up for sale now at $355,000. The reason why this is impresive is because most rare coins are artificially rare. That is, like the 1898 "Single 9" pond, few of them were intentionally made.

 

This is not true with coins like the 1931 Union silver, especially the 2/ and 2/6. The 3D is the rarest but also has the smallest original mintage. So it is 'made rare' to a greater extent than the others. My favorite among these coins and among Union in total is the 1931 2/. Unlike any other Union coin, I consider these world class rarities which deserve to sell for really "big money" if they actually exist in "high grade". All except the 1931 6D which I place in a lower category because at least three of these in "high grade" are already known.

 

The unique coins such as the 1925 proof 3d, 6d and sovereign and the 1928 6D, I also place these in a lower category because they are not "regular issue' coins. And usually, those that are part of a set will sell for a lot more than those that are not even with equal scarcity. These are more like the 1898 "Single 9" pond. But the difference with the latter coin is that it is a "celebrity". That is the only reason it sells for the exhorbitant amount it does. This can easily be verified by the prices that other similar but unknown and obscure coins sell for. An example of that would be the 1884-A proof Bolivia 10 centavos. There are two known and it last sold for about $550 in June, 2006.

 

Now how much "big money' is for the 1931 silver, I do not know. At this time, I do not believe that any of them would remotely sell for anything near what comporable US coins are worth nor do I believe that they should. Personally, I would expect the 1931 3D to sell for the most if it showed up in MS. It's possible that it might sell for more than the $155,000 the 1928 6D fetched though I'm not sure about that.

 

With the circulated specimens like yours, I would be willing to pay a good price for it (unlike any other dates), but what exactly is a "good price", I do not know. NEN sold the 1931 1/ G-4 for $495. I ASSUME it is more common than the 2/6 because I have seen a few more, but also mainly because the mintage is less which frankly, is not really a good reason at all based upon what is known today. I could have bought this coin both from NEN and where they bought it, but I declined to do so. But it is probably a reasonable price.

 

Other prices I have heard second hand, I do not think so. Reportedly, I heard that one of the 1931 3D was offered at R70,000. I believe it was the NGC VG-8. I am not going to pay a price like that for this coin or any of the 1931 silver in that grade or anywhere near it anytime in the near future. There are two reasons for this. The first is that I do not believe it would sell for that price in an open sale, certainly not outside of South Africa which is something I have to consider for all the Union coins I buy because foreign demand for them is almost non-existent. The second is that I am not convinced it is worth that kind of money, despite its rarity. That price, especially for a small coin like that, is more like what a US coin would sell for and I'm not going to pay a US price for any South Africa coin.

 

In my preference scale, I rate the 1931 silver among the "elite" for what I would like to own most. The others would be from the Spanish colonial pillar coinage. Specifically, the 1732 Mexico minors, the 1758 (or is it 1760) Chile 4 reales, and the 1729 "Crowned M" pattern 8 reales. However, my guess (and that is all it is) is that any of these coins would sell for between $50,000 and $100,000 and not a price like that R70,000 implies for a higher grade 1931 3D.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri

1931 Silver Coins

 

I have missed the last few posts of George and Ernesto (due to work and today’s mother's day celebrations) and only caught up and read all the interesting stuff tonight (Sunday night).

Regarding the scarcity of the 1931 silver...

A year or two ago on this forum, I wrote about the older (aged) collectors who one of these days are going to lose their internet phobia and start buying coins on the internet, so prices might be influenced by this ...

Someone commented that the “old toppies” are already sitting with all the good stuff and it is actually the younger guys who must buy from them and not vice versa...

Now Ernesto, as a Yank, you might not know what an “old toppie” is, but it is actually very easy to work out – anyone older than me (like George) is an “old toppie” and anyone younger than him (like me) is a youngster....

But all jokes aside, tomorrow morning, I am going to visit a friend of mine who is truly an “old toppie” who started coin collecting in 1961 and have NEVER seen or traded anything on the internet. He has never owned a computer and at 76 years of age, do not intend to acquire one ever.

The reason why I am going to him, is to take a few pictures of his Union of South Africa coin collection – for those of you that believe that almost ALL the good stuff is already in graded collections, beware...

There are still some old toppies around with great holdings and many of them will hold on to their collections for relatively many more years to come –

We, the “slab generation” might be in for a few surprises as the true old time collectors – the real “old toppies” - those who know nothing about the internet, are (sadly) going to die out in the next 10 years or so... that day when their coins are going to become available to a new generation of “slab” collectors...

Watch out for my pictures by say coming Wednesday night here.

Kind regards

Pierre

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jwither

Pierre,

 

I have no disagreement with your last post. I might have not explicitly stated some of the things that you just said in prior posts, but yes, I am aware of this.

 

I have repeatedly stated that I believe that there are more coins available to be graded, for some issues it is a few or very few and for others it is many or a lot more. For most, I believe it is a lot more, even in MS because there is no reason to believe otherwise absent direct evidence to the contrary. It is others who have implied or practically stated that most or maybe even all coins from certain issues have been graded by operating under the fiction that, because South African collectors generally prefer graded coins, that all of them or all others outside of South Africa who own them also do. This is not true in the US and there is no reason to believe it is true in South Africa either, whether it seems logical or not. The census pops have already increased substantially, mostly in a proportional sense, for many of the more common issues and many who bought a supposedly "low pop" or "conditional rarity" (especially a low grade MS) for a big premium has possibly lost a substantial proportion of their outlay on such a coin. And in my opinion, they are in the position to lose a lot more because there have been no long term setbacks in prices since I have started collecting. In buying most Union coins, the vast majority, I absolutely would not pay a big premium for a "conditional rarity" using this assumption.

 

As for who is most likely to own the remaining better and scarcer coins that are generally not known by the broader numismatic community, it is exactly the type of collector you just mentioned. While I agree that few collectors were around to preserve these coins in the early years of the SA Mint, it would practically be unique if there were none who did so, especially in a British Commonwealth country in the 20th century.

 

These collectors who are in their 70's and 80's now, they could have pulled KGVI directly from circulation and they could have received KGV from someone else such as their parents or other family members. Or, they could have bought them (for an absolute pittance) from someone who did pull them from circulation in a private sale that no one knows about because some collectors keep their holdings private.

 

For coins like the 1931 silver, the fact that there are so few combined in the census given their known rarity and likely value is a strong indication that, unlike the examples I gave for US coins, that there actually are only a very few in existence. It's not even like a coin such as the 1959 5/ which is considered a 'key date" because of its low mintage but which in my opinion, in actuality is either among the most common or is the most common QEII 5/ in high grade. From what I know, they were specifically requested by collectors and therefore, would have circulated little and been better preserved than practically any other Union coin. Some might have been melted in the 1979-1980 silver boom but not many otherwise. I would expect that for this coin, the typical grade is probably AU, however many are left.

 

For other rare Union such as say, the 1925 2/, I also do not believe there are very many more in high grade. But its conceivable that for issues like this that there are PROPORTIONATELY more that are not in the census (even in high grade) than there are in it now because the absolute numbers are so low. I have seen far more comments when discusisng rare Union coins with this one as an example than its 1931 counterpart, even though as scarce as it is, the 1931 I consider to be vastly scarcer.

 

I also still believe that proportionately, a good number of these are not in South Africa at all. The reason this is that, though South African may have had few collectors at the time, there is no reason to believe that zero coins would have been saved by travelers who visited South Africa or who were collectors themselves. Now, most of these are not high grade which is what we see in British auctions such as DNW. But some most likely are. They are also in the UK, other British Commonwealth countries and maybe the US, like for that one 1931 set a collector colleague told me about. I take him at his word on this one and in this case, it would have been passed down from the prior generation which is something which also happens in the US, though seemingly less now than in the past because of how much scarce and rare US coins are currently worth.

 

In terms of how long collectors and "investors" need to wait until it's a reasonable assumption that the census is complete, I do not believe there is an absolute answer to that question. For the US, I would say that for any really expensive coin, the census is practically 100% complete. These coins usually sell often enough where the most recent buyer would request certification if for no other reason than to verify authenticity. But the lower down a coin is on the value scale, the more coins ar elikely to remain ungraded.

 

South African coins do not fully reflect what I just described for the US. Because ZAR are worth a lot more given approximately equal scarcity, I believe the census for these coins is proportionately more complete or far more complete than Union. You see this in the absolute numbers where the number of average or even low circulated specimens represent a disproportionate number of the total graded and the total numbers are much larger than Union most of the time.

 

So if someone were to ask me about coins such as the 1894 2/6 and 1949 2/6, it's likely that there are fewer or far fewer of the former to be graded than the latter, even if some or many collectors consider the latter coin to be scarcer in higher grades. (It was 11 for the 1894 and 21 for the 1949 in MS the last time I checked on August 13, 2010.)

 

The general rule is that, the more time passes and the more a coin is worth, the more likely the census will be complete or nearly so. I do not believe that this applies to Union to the extent it does for either US coins or ZAR.

 

One other thing I would like to know is, whether a collection such as ABSA's has these coins. I have asked this question several times but either no one wanted to respond or does not know. My understanding is that its by far the best collection of Union patterns but it is not clear to me whether it also contains equivalent business strikes and proofs from the regular issues.

 

Finally in the US and many other countries, there is a national collection. The Smithsonian Museum acquired the US Mint Cabinet collection which I understand was put together by US Mint employees. The Banco de Mexico I understand has an equivalent collection, including the exceedingly rare 1772 pillar dollar (8 Reales). However, I have never heard of such a collection for the South African Mint and do not know if one exists.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri

Here are pictures of the 1931 Silver Coins ...

 

In my post Sunday night, I referred to a 76 year old collector who has a very nice Union collection. This morning I went to visit him and took some pictures of some of his 1931 silver coins.

He is not a very rich man and bought his coins on a very tight budget through the years. Luckily he kept records of what he paid for them, when and from who he bought it. His 1931 coins are certainly not top notch but then whose is?!

He did not buy his 1931 sixpence, but exchanged it for a 1923 proof sixpence with another collector many years ago.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931Sikspens.jpg

 

In my view it was a fair exchange. A PF62 1923 Sixpence recently sold for R1211 on BoB while an ungraded 1931 Sixpence in low condition sold for R801 a month or two ago (also on BoB). However, a 1923 PF63 sold for R2112,00, so depending on the grade of the proof sixpence he exchanged, it is possible that the other guy got the better deal?

Regarding his 1931 Shilling...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931Shilling.jpg

 

This coin was bought through City Coins from the well published Ford Collection on the 31st of May 1985 for R250.00. The starting price was R175 and the coin was described as GF. (The “marks” you see on the picture are actually on the cellophane Mylar holder)

Regarding his 1931 Florin (Two Shilling)

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931Florin.jpg

 

This coin was bought by George Rachwal (from Shillings & Things who still trades in Cape Town) in 1984 from a Worcester collector for R800 who sold it for R845 to its present owner on 29 April 1985.

Regarding the 1931 Half Crown. (This is a low grade coin – maybe VG)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931HalfCrown.jpg

 

Bought from P&G Coins (still trading in Johannesburg) in the mid 1980s for R611.50.

I did not take pictures of other coins in his collection, but saw brilliant uncirculated dates: Here are just a few examples... Sixpences (1924, 1927 and 1936). Shillings (1923, 1934, 1948). Two Shillings (1948 and a 1950 date bought for R200 in 1992). Half Crowns (1926 (EF) and 1930, 1934, 1935, 1946, 1948 and 1950. (all b/unc). The 1946 2/6- was bought for R140 from City Coins.

The 1925 Florin in his collection (VF+ according to his very conservative grading) was exchanged for two Krugerrands 25 years ago – so in today’s terms around R20 000 which might not be that a good trade?

His copper coins are truly brilliant with the 1933 Penny very much superior which he bought from Durban Stamp auctions for R75 also about 25 years ago.

So some of the old timers are still sitting pretty with really nice coins still remaining in their collections.

Regards

Pierre

Edited by Pierre_Henri

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coinoisseur

So some of the old timers are still sitting pretty with really nice coins still remaining in their collections.

 

 

Hi Pierre

 

Thanks for sharing that. They are not bad coins at all for 1931. You are absolutely correct in saying that there are some old timers that are still around sitting on some really pretty nice stuff. I know of 5 collections with some really choice items in them. These should come on the market like you say in about 5 years time....

 

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Pierre_Henri

 

Hi Pierre

 

Thanks for sharing that. They are not bad coins at all for 1931. You are absolutely correct in saying that there are some old timers that are still around sitting on some really pretty nice stuff. I know of 5 collections with some really choice items in them. These should come on the market like you say in about 5 years time....

 

 

Thanks Anthony, but just curious - when did I mention something about 5 years coming to the market?

Hell, I must be getting old myself for not remembering that?

Kind regards

Pierre

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geejay50

Thanks Pierre for getting those pics, they give us something tangible to look at and think about.You obviously have the owner in your confidence enough to be able to take the pics.

The sixpence has a bit of green on the face but that will probably come off with Silverbrite. The Shilling is really the best Ive seen for the year. The Two Shilling is as you describe (one would love to send it for grading!) and the Halfcrown is VG or so. All very nice and the product of a lifetime of dedication.

I have a sixpence that I had graded from raw in 2008 - nothing great though.

Thanks again for your invaluable info.

Geejay

58f5a7252124e_1931SixpenceVG10.jpg.d1d443dcbd914382da7d4cd2a9771858.jpg

58f5a725257c2_1931SixpenceVG10.jpg.11009a08a0ded0c0809197809cbcaafd.jpg

58f5a7252a45e_1931SixpenceVG10.jpg.4d63734eb1ee12f8e05c3fef38480f3b.jpg

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coinoisseur
We, the “slab generation” might be in for a few surprises as the true old time collectors – the real “old toppies” - those who know nothing about the internet, are (sadly) going to die out in the next 10 years or so... that day when their coins are going to become available to a new generation of “slab” collectors...

 

Hi Pierre

 

You are correct, you did not say 5 years. I must be getting old.

 

Best Wishes

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Pierre_Henri

Hard to Get

 

Thank you George

These two 1931 dates are from my own business strike collection – low grades but still hard to get...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931siks.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/1931s.jpg

The Shilling is a difficult coin to get (not ultra rare but still a tough one) – my (incomplete) records show only three being sold on BoB over the past 18 months being

Ungraded (G) = R505.00 // Ungraded (VG) = R1975.00 // NGC VF details = R2001.00

I paid R475.00 for my “ugly” specimen via a private sale about 2 or 3 years ago. Still a bargain I think…

Regards

Pierre

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jwither

I think these 1931 are all pretty decent, despite the grades. Personally, I prefer coins like these with a little darker color because I consider it more natural, as I would expect that they would have toned given the wear they show. That is one of the problems I have with many or even most of the lower grade Union coins I have seen. The color is almost always off.

 

Those (such as Pierre's) look a little unnatural to me if they are as light as the images show (which might not be true). It indicates to me that they might have been "dipped" sometime in the past though with these coins, no hairlines are visible in the images.

 

On the price paid for that 1925 florin, I do not believe this coin (as described) would sell for R20,000 today in a public sale. Or at least, I do not think so unless sold to a South Africa buyer. I believe that an NGC XF-45 sold on Heritage a few years ago for about $1500. Since the 1931 specimen Geejay sold for (I believe) about $1600 a year or two ago did not grade, I think that the coin illustrated should easily sell for R20,000, maybe more. I see nothing in the image to indicate that it would not grade and it is what a coin with that wear "should" look like.

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geejay50

Hi Pierre and Ernesto,

 

I agree with Ernesto on the the gradeability of the 1931 Florin shown above. That will be the first to grade if and when it reaches the Third Party Grading Company.

 

What do you thnk this coin shown below is worth? I bought it raw in 2005 and excepting for the Bakewell collection, havent seen another one as good..

 

Geejay

58f5a7252f243_1925TwoShillingamp.jpg.d03af7c40f7ec952eeac78351703a887.jpg

58f5a72533b5f_1925TwoShillingamp.jpg.421aee1ba2f33451758d6da88e2e3c83.jpg

58f5a725385ae_1925TwoShillingamp.jpg.46eaa0371826b98a926acad7642d2b81.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

I am going to give you my opinion but its probably less than what a South Africa buyer would pay because it is a guesstimate based upon prior Heritage sales. Sold on BoB, I would expect either you or anyone else to at least ASK for a lot more than my number.

 

An NGC XF-45 sold for $1495 in May, 2008 with Heritage, which was before the worst of the financial crisis. Recently, the 1926 2/ NGC MS-64 sold for $12,650, also on Heritage. I consider the 1925 to be scarcer than the 1926 but not really that much. The Bakewell NGC MS-64 might sell for a lot more, even outside of South Africa, but if it did it would do so more for its scarcity reputation versus the 1926 than any actual difference.

 

I believe that $2250 to $2500 is a reasonable price but if more, not more than $3000. I would be interested to know the opinions of others.

 

By the way, it is a nice coin.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

Thanks for your opinion, it is always considered and worth reading by all collectors who seek value.

I paid R10,000 for the 1925 Two Shilling in 2005 , it was quite a lot of money then. I am not interested in selling really as I am sure there will not be another one equal or better to replace. The actual price for such a scarce coin would depend on who climbs into the auction. I would not be surprised if it goes over $3000.

Geejay

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Algreco

$3000 and then some...

 

Georg, your specimen looks a lot better than an AU50. However, it is always difficult to assess a coin's condition using pics. Nevertheless, based on the fact that this year and denomination are almost impossible to find in any grade, I recon a fair price (for your specimen) would be around $4500.00 (if not more, under ideal market conditions).

Edited by Algreco

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jwither

I agree that the coin appears to be conservatively graded, but I do not have another AU-50 for comparison purposes available to me right now. (I have a 1935 2/.)

 

In terms of the different prices put out there, I would also like to know the answer to these two questions:

 

Question#1: The 1926 NGC MS-64 which sold for $12,650 on Heritage, how much do all of you think it would fetch in a sale within South Africa now?

 

And by sale, I mean such as on BoB. I do not consider ANY private sale representative and this is from someone who has been part of more than a few. Because I am selling from outside of South Africa, some of mine have probably been too low versus too high. However, I say this because without competitive bidding and frequent sales, these are actually no more than a guess by both parties.

 

Partly because I am not an active coin buyer at all now, I do not follow sale prices as closely as I did before. And this was more true on BoB even when I was buying many coins. But I can tell you that, from my personal observations, that I have and would see what I describe as astronomical and absurd opening prices for all kinds of coins on BoB for which there would be no bids even after multiple listings. I attribute this to the VASTLY INFLATED opinions that many SA collectors apparently have or had on what a realistic value was (and probably still is) for many, many coins.

 

I have often wondered whether these coins ultimately attracted any buyers and if so, whether the prices were anywhere near the prices I am describing. Some of these coins I have possibly just underestimated, which if true is a reason I will likely never own them or own them again because I have no intention of paying prices like these. But more likely than not, the buyer probably paid far too much which if correct, I expect to mean that whoever owns them now is going to lose a huge proportion of their :"investment" when they go to sell them because many of them are not really that scarce. I say this because, though I am hardly infallible in my assessments, I did not accumulate the collection I had before so cheaply by paying the prices that many others seem to think that these coins are worth.

 

Question #2: What is the opinion of those here on the relative scarcity between the 1925 2/ and 1926 2/? Do you agree with me that the actual scarcity between these two coins is not that great or not? If not, why not?

 

I just checked the NGC and PCGS pop for both and yes, there are a few more in MS for the 1926 than the 1925; more than I thought. There are a total of 5 versus 2. (In AU, it is a "wash" because there are four for both and the grades are about the same.) But though this is 150% more, it is still not that great a difference in absolute terms and neither coin is easy to find in any decent grade. My anecdotal experience, since I have seen so few of both in any decent grade, is that the 1926 is a lot more available in low grades (below VF or so) but I have not seen any real difference in better grades. However, what I just stated should have little bearing on the prices of higher grade coins because few discriminating buyers would acquire the vast majority of either that I have seen. (My 1925 is an "XF Details" and I have no 1926.)

 

So yes, though I still believe that the 1925 is worth more in equivalent grade and maybe somewhat more than I said before, the question is, how much? My answer is still, not substantially more regardless of whether this last 1926 were to sell for more or not.

 

So for example, if the $12,650 is a fair price for the 1926 MS-64, I see no justification for a price higher than $3000 for a 1925 AU-50. Given the relative scarcity and the actual difference in appearance, I think $3,000 is actually a fairly generous price. If the $12,650 is too low (as I suspect it is for a South Africa buyer if the coin is now located within South Africa), then it's a matter of how much more this coin would bring.

 

If the consensus opinion disagrees with my assessment, it should be for one of two reasons. The first is that I have underestimated the relative scarcity of the two coins. I do not believe this is true but it is possible. Or second, the reputation of the 1925 results in a bigger price difference versus the 1926 anyway. This is not that uncommon with US coins but there are only a few within Union that I would say definitively meet this condition.

 

In asking these two questions, whether someone or anyone agrees or disagrees with me is secondary. Everyone is (of course) entitled to their opinion because that is all these are, an opinion. In expressing mine, I have attempted to provide a basis for it (as I believe I always do) which is what I am also asking for here. Sometimes, the price a coin has contains no apparent logic. But I would say that usually, some logic can be applied to the RELATIVE value of any coin which is what I have attempted to do here.

Edited by jwither

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Algreco
Question#1: The 1926 NGC MS-64 which sold for $12,650 on Heritage, how much do all of you think it would fetch in a sale within South Africa now?

 

This is indeed a difficult question to answer, primarily because (and to my knowledge) not enough past sales of these type of specimens have been recorded. This in essence means that it would be very difficult to gauge prices for really rare specimens like the 1925 2/.

 

Hern's catalogue prices are used as a baseline. However, in my opinion, this is an untrusted source based on the fact many of the listed prices cannot be accurately justified. That aside, one of the contributing factors that I believe affects this series dramatically is that there were very few collectors (if any) during this period, and the coins were heavily circulated. This coupled with the fact that the coins were decimated by smeltings, and you end up with a very low survival rate of premium type specimens.

 

The question in this case would be, how many survived? I for one have an idea, but it still does not help me in accurately pricing a coin of presumed rarity. There are too many unknowns. This in turn forces you to either go into an auction guns blazing or holds you back with hope that another specimen will come up for sale at a cheaper price.

 

Having said that, I think that a similar price to the one realized on Heritage (for the 1926 2/ MS64) could be achieved on BOB. The reason for this, is that there are collectors who have a very good understanding of current market conditions, and will capitalize on unique opportunities when they present themselves.

Edited by Algreco

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jwither

You are right, the Hern catalog is used as abaseline by many or most collectors. But for its actual accuracy but because in many instances, they have nothing else to use.

 

As I have said before, for infrequently sold coins, the Hern Catalog bears either little or absolutely no relation to what coins are actually worth. How can it given that some (or many) of these coins have not sold at all in a given year or if they have, not all of the sales prices are known. Taking an example from my (outdated) 2008 catalog, the 1931 2/ in MS is listed at R12000 which is less than all dates between 1925-1929 and about 1/4 of the R50,000 for the 1925. Does anyone believe that this was remotely correct? If they do and they still think it is, I will be glad to buy such a coin for this relative price assuming there is one even available to be bought.

 

As for how many survived, I believe that the numbers in higher grades are not high for a coin like the 1925 (they are very low) but proportionately a lot more than the two in MS which show up today and more than most apparently believe. I have explained the reasoning for that in prior posts on many occassions. If for example, there were as many as 10 for this particular coin in MS, the absolute number would remain very low (relatively), just more than is believed now. I do not believe there are 10 MS for this particular coin, but given that the margin of error is so high, no one knows how many actually exist. The actual number is probably somewhat less than I think but more than almost everyone else believes.

 

As for the price this 1926 2/ realized at Heritage, I would be very surprised if it did not sell for at least that amount within South Africa. I think it would sell for more. This coin is much scarcer than most other Union issues and if did not, then other coins are worth less (some a lot less) than many apparently think.

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