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Scarce Coin Watch

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jwither
4 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

The Pillar dollars have always intrigued me  - maybe it’s their association with romantic old pirate stories regarding pieces-of -eight treasures. Piracy as a worldwide high-seas threat was mostly gone in the 1700s but the association lingers.

Many collectors, internationally, collect the Pillar dollars as they circulated virtually worldwide in the olden days. So they appeal to collectors from many sea-bordering countries. Also their association with ship-wrecks and pirate treasure adds to this appeal.  

The Dutch silver coins of the 1600s and 1700s also intrigues me for the same reasons mentioned above.

But because of the horrible exchange rate, many South Africans that wishes to collect these series, are cut out – they simply cannot compete internationally with well-off collectors. But obviously, there are exceptions

I have recently seen the most magical Pillar dollar collection owned by an octogenarian Cape Town collector who asked me to sell the collection for him.

His son, now an Australian resident, heard about this an forbid his aging father to sell the collection as he (the son) wishes to inherit it one day

The father is in financial difficulty and the son is living in luxury in OZ, but the father is now afraid to sell the collection.

Can you believe this?

Not sure about the laws in South Africa but here in the US, if your contact is able to make his own decisions, his son's preference should be ignored.  His attitude is extremely selfish and the guy sounds like an a**.

Like other US collectors, I first identified this coinage from the US "Red Book" (aka, A Guide Book of US Coins) which is the annual price guide here and has been since 1947.  It's pictured in the introduction.

Pillar dollars are found in shipwrecks but this coinage isn't really "pirate treasure", as the age of the pirates ended before this coinage was ever struck starting in 1732 in Mexico.  The predecessor "cob" coinage which has been profiled here on occasion was issued during this time and though I like it a lot less, it has a much higher preference among the public and noticeably higher among collectors.

Pillar dollars (especially from Mexico or mint mark Mo) are very common since this denomination was struck by the millions.  However, nice examples are decidedly not.  Even most higher grade NGC and sometimes PCGS coins aren't very attractive.

I collect the minors (half, one two and four reales) and mostly from Peru because the other denominations are scarcer or much scarcer and Mexico is by far the most common mint.  Bolivia pillars aren't scarce absolutely but any decent ones are very hard to find.  I've only seen a very low number in 16 years of buying the series.  Guatemala is on average the scarcest of the four available mints, the other two being Chile and Colombia.

As for South Africans buying this coinage, I'd attribute it to almost no one in your country having an affinity for it.  Most pillars are much cheaper than either the scarcer or higher grade ZAR or Union so it cannot be affordability.  Not sure you looked at the links I attached but the 1759 2 reales is certainly cheaper than an 1893 ZAR 1/-, the 1926 1/- and about the same as the 1927 1/- in equivalent grade.  It's also easily scarcer than all three, by a substantial margin in my opinion.

My pillar collection now numbers 71 coins but I don't own a Mexico or Peru pillar dollar.  I've owned a few from Mexico in the past but sold it to buy other coins.  I own both Bolivia and Guatemala in NGC AU-58 holders, one of each.  Most though are 1/2 real and one real, though many are in high AU and MS.  

At some point when my collection is a lot more complete, I'll create a Signature Set in the NGC Registry and post a link here.

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Pierre_Henri
19 hours ago, jwither said:

Not sure about the laws in South Africa but here in the US, if your contact is able to make his own decisions, his son's preference should be ignored.  His attitude is extremely selfish and the guy sounds like an a**.

Like other US collectors, I first identified this coinage from the US "Red Book" (aka, A Guide Book of US Coins) which is the annual price guide here and has been since 1947.  It's pictured in the introduction.

Pillar dollars are found in shipwrecks but this coinage isn't really "pirate treasure", as the age of the pirates ended before this coinage was ever struck starting in 1732 in Mexico.  The predecessor "cob" coinage which has been profiled here on occasion was issued during this time and though I like it a lot less, it has a much higher preference among the public and noticeably higher among collectors.

Pillar dollars (especially from Mexico or mint mark Mo) are very common since this denomination was struck by the millions.  However, nice examples are decidedly not.  Even most higher grade NGC and sometimes PCGS coins aren't very attractive.

I collect the minors (half, one two and four reales) and mostly from Peru because the other denominations are scarcer or much scarcer and Mexico is by far the most common mint.  Bolivia pillars aren't scarce absolutely but any decent ones are very hard to find.  I've only seen a very low number in 16 years of buying the series.  Guatemala is on average the scarcest of the four available mints, the other two being Chile and Colombia.

As for South Africans buying this coinage, I'd attribute it to almost no one in your country having an affinity for it.  Most pillars are much cheaper than either the scarcer or higher grade ZAR or Union so it cannot be affordability.  Not sure you looked at the links I attached but the 1759 2 reales is certainly cheaper than an 1893 ZAR 1/-, the 1926 1/- and about the same as the 1927 1/- in equivalent grade.  It's also easily scarcer than all three, by a substantial margin in my opinion.

My pillar collection now numbers 71 coins but I don't own a Mexico or Peru pillar dollar.  I've owned a few from Mexico in the past but sold it to buy other coins.  I own both Bolivia and Guatemala in NGC AU-58 holders, one of each.  Most though are 1/2 real and one real, though many are in high AU and MS.  

At some point when my collection is a lot more complete, I'll create a Signature Set in the NGC Registry and post a link here.

I see that you collect Peru minors.

I did a search on my own sales over the past 5 years and see that I sold one 8 Reales (thus not a minor) coin from Peru .

Wss007_zps6e1e5876.jpg

Now that I look at the coin again, I accept it is a Peru issue?

I can send you the link if you wish to see the description

Regards

Pierre

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jwither
1 hour ago, Pierre_Henri said:

I see that you collect Peru minors.

I did a search on my own sales over the past 5 years and see that I sold one 8 Reales (thus not a minor) coin from Peru .

Wss007_zps6e1e5876.jpg

Now that I look at the coin again, I accept it is a Peru issue?

I can send you the link if you wish to see the description

Regards

Pierre

The coin you have pictured is a Bustos or portrait eight reales.  Some also describe this design as a pillar dollar due to the reverse but that's not the consensus opinion.  I don't own any coins with this design or collect it.  I know some are quite scarce (especially in high grade and from Chile or Colombia) but don't know much else about it.

As for identifying the mint, the coin you have pictured is from Peru, but it doesn't have the "LM" mint mark that I can see for Lima as on the pillars.

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Pierre_Henri
On 8/25/2018 at 7:46 PM, jwither said:

The coin you have pictured is a Bustos or portrait eight reales.  Some also describe this design as a pillar dollar due to the reverse but that's not the consensus opinion.  I don't own any coins with this design or collect it.  I know some are quite scarce (especially in high grade and from Chile or Colombia) but don't know much else about it.

As for identifying the mint, the coin you have pictured is from Peru, but it doesn't have the "LM" mint mark that I can see for Lima as on the pillars.

I never knew that Spanish Pillar Dollar (regardless of where they were struck) collectors make a distinction between those coins carrying the bust of the King on the obverse and those that don't.

Why would the one design be of interest to some collectors but the other design not?

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jwither
1 hour ago, Pierre_Henri said:

I never knew that Spanish Pillar Dollar (regardless of where they were struck) collectors make a distinction between those coins carrying the bust of the King on the obverse and those that don't.

Why would the one design be of interest to some collectors but the other design not?

Anecdotally, most collectors of Spanish colonial coinage seem to collect both.  I am aware of some who collect one or the other but it seems to be the minority.

First, I don't collect the Portrait or Bustos design because I don't really like any of the king's portraits.   I find the coins attractive with (mostly) original services but most of these coins have been cleaned.  But regardless of the quality,  I like the columnarios (Pillars and globes) design a lot more than the Bust coinage, as with the majority.  In general, I don't care for most portraits, not just Charles III, Charles IV and Ferdinand VII on this coinage.  SA ZAR and Union is an exception

Second, it's my limited collection budget which also applies to practically everyone who collects or considers one or  both.  Now and in the recent past, I'm not buying hardly anything else at all except for pillar minors from Bolivia, Guatemala and Peru.  Mostly from Peru since that's what is usually available.  Before I'd buy Spanish colonial portrait coinage, I'd go back to collecting Union or any number of others I like a lot more, like Mexican Cap & Ray 4R which isn't a series I have discussed much but is another very challenging one.

I presume it's a similar motive for most collectors.  Financially with the budget most collectors are able to allocate, spreading your resources too thin will result in disproportionately average to lower quality coins which aren't very marketable.  It might not matter to you but it does to most others because one of the primary sources of "coin money" for most collectors comes from selling coins out of their existing collection.  I can't speak for anyone else but I'd rather just buy coins I want to keep instead of something I don't want that badly and selling it at a likely loss later.  Regular buying and selling leads to both losing money and a less distinctive collection.

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Pierre_Henri
On 8/27/2018 at 7:37 PM, jwither said:

Anecdotally, most collectors of Spanish colonial coinage seem to collect both.  I am aware of some who collect one or the other but it seems to be the minority.

First, I don't collect the Portrait or Bustos design because I don't really like any of the king's portraits.   I find the coins attractive with (mostly) original services but most of these coins have been cleaned.  But regardless of the quality,  I like the columnarios (Pillars and globes) design a lot more than the Bust coinage, as with the majority.  In general, I don't care for most portraits, not just Charles III, Charles IV and Ferdinand VII on this coinage.  SA ZAR and Union is an exception

Second, it's my limited collection budget which also applies to practically everyone who collects or considers one or  both.  Now and in the recent past, I'm not buying hardly anything else at all except for pillar minors from Bolivia, Guatemala and Peru.  Mostly from Peru since that's what is usually available.  Before I'd buy Spanish colonial portrait coinage, I'd go back to collecting Union or any number of others I like a lot more, like Mexican Cap & Ray 4R which isn't a series I have discussed much but is another very challenging one.

I presume it's a similar motive for most collectors.  Financially with the budget most collectors are able to allocate, spreading your resources too thin will result in disproportionately average to lower quality coins which aren't very marketable.  It might not matter to you but it does to most others because one of the primary sources of "coin money" for most collectors comes from selling coins out of their existing collection.  I can't speak for anyone else but I'd rather just buy coins I want to keep instead of something I don't want that badly and selling it at a likely loss later.  Regular buying and selling leads to both losing money and a less distinctive collection.

I don't know if you are aware of this very interesting article that was published in the Australian Coin Review Magazine in 1996 (thus pre-internet era) 

I will post the magazine to you if you send me your private post office address (again) which I seem to have lost (again)

image.png.c771f83f31cde10f1cfc1d8350e4c091.png

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jwither
3 hours ago, Pierre_Henri said:

I don't know if you are aware of this very interesting article that was published in the Australian Coin Review Magazine in 1996 (thus pre-internet era) 

I will post the magazine to you if you send me your private post office address (again) which I seem to have lost (again)

 

No, I wasn't aware of this article but would be interested in reading it.  PM sent.

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Pierre_Henri
19 hours ago, jwither said:

No, I wasn't aware of this article but would be interested in reading it.  PM sent.

Did not get any PM on the BoB system - so I rather see if this works?

Page 1 

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Pierre_Henri
Just now, Pierre_Henri said:

Did not get any PM on the BoB system - so I rather see if this works?

Page 1 

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Page 2 

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Pierre_Henri
Just now, Pierre_Henri said:

Page 2 

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Page 3 

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Pierre_Henri
Just now, Pierre_Henri said:

Page 3 

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Page 4 

image.thumb.png.69c8437064ac11c01d7f0109d7cacb35.png

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Pierre_Henri
Just now, Pierre_Henri said:

Page 4 

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Page 5 

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Pierre_Henri
Just now, Pierre_Henri said:

Page 5 

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Page 6  - the last page 

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jwither
On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:17 PM, Pierre_Henri said:

Page 2 

 

For got to say thanks for posting.  It is an informative read.

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