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geejay50

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geejay50

Rare Southern Rhodesian Coins - The 1934 Sixpence

 

When one looks at what the market regards as rare and valuable for long enough in the earlier Southern Rhodesian coinage (business strikes), one gets other impressions especially when looking at the lower denominations like sixpences and threepences. I dont say that the bigger expensive coins are not scarce , they certainly are. I am referring to the 1946 2/-, 1954 2/-, 1939 2/- and the 1939 Halfcrown but somehow over the years the market has looked after them and has tended to overlook the silver 3ds and 6ds.

 

For over a year now, I have had a regular search on for the 1934 Sixpence on Bidorbuy and eBay and also for the 1939 Sixpence and 1939 Threepence. The mintages of these three coins are the lowest in their denomination ie 1934 6d , 214,000; 1939 6d , 200,000; and 1939 3d 160,000. Mintages regarded as accurate (London Royal Mint).

 

These coins are just impossible to find in any decent condition that will grade or buy graded. NGC grading figures indicate only a handful of these coins that have been graded at all . I really tried hard to get an American seller to sell me a MS62 1939 3d but no ways would he ship to South Africa- I must say I missed an MS graded 1939 3d on Heritage Auctions a few years ago by oversleeping.

 

In the case of the 1934 6d, there are about 5 graded at NGC and of those , 3 are in MS. At PCGS, there is a single MS63 coin. That is it !! I dont see any raw gradeable coins on the horizon or anywhere else.

 

With time there has been a steady growth in interest in Southern Rhodesia I think given the exceptional collapse in that country's modern monetary system.

 

I have had the good fortune of getting a 1934 Sixpence for cheap thanks to Pierre Nortje on Bid or buy and a market that was flat. I would like to share this with you and in particular what a top class unc coin should look like. The wire ribbing on the shaft of the native war axes is the high point on the reverse and is obviously without wear as is the shoulder of King George V on the obverse. The coin is in grading at NGC currently (any guesses at its grade??) I also have a 1939 6d there but its not as good. The 1939 3d is bent.

 

Perhaps we must look where the market WILL look two years from now as true scarcity eventually dawns on it. I recall that I phoned Robert Bakewell in 2009 asking him if he had any 1944 Shillings in business strike as I could find none on the NGC/PCGS pop report. He didnt have any and it only dawned on us then that we were talking about the scarcest SA Shilling ever. The market was obsessed at the time with the ZAR 1893 Shilling. .......Think about it !!! ,,,,,,In another context Trevor Noah said "Funny NOW,,,,,,,,Not funny then"

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

58f5a7530507d_1934SRho6dRev.jpg.63e44a3ef4dcf7473fe1d9127f2eaf1c.jpg

58f5a7530a79b_1934SRho6dObv.jpg.3affc116b43c3701c46a5c846bc1bb82.jpg

58f5a7530ff77_1939SRho6dRev.jpg.897a70b7e3eb4789c37cc52e843d05a3.jpg

58f5a753157bf_1939SRho6dObv.jpg.60c550a500710276fcdaadaa01570d6b.jpg

58f5a7531a126_19393dSRhodesiaRev_2.jpg.d03db3119f94a26cecb0587e51a9c92e.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither
With time there has been a steady growth in interest in Southern Rhodesia I think given the exceptional collapse in that country's modern monetary system.

 

Perhaps we must look where the market WILL look two years from now as true scarcity eventually dawns on it. I recall that I phoned Robert Bakewell in 2009 asking him if he had any 1944 Shillings in business strike as I could find none on the NGC/PCGS pop report. He didnt have any and it only dawned on us then that we were talking about the scarcest SA Shilling ever. The market was obsessed at the time with the ZAR 1893 Shilling. .......Think about it !!! ,,,,,,In another context Trevor Noah said "Funny NOW,,,,,,,,Not funny then"

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

 

On the Southern Rhodesia series, you are repeating the same misconceptions that have been repeated here before.

 

First, yes these coins are presumably scarce as the census indicates but no, the census is (or was not at the time) not representative of the actual availability as I have explained for Union, ZAR, this series and others on this forum many times. These are once again principally the dislike among most Commonwealth collectors and the few who collect this series for TPG.And second, the low market price. The reason for the latter is that most collectors are not profit maximixers who are trying to squeze every USD, rand or cent out of their collections.

 

On their financial prospects, I have covered this many times before,.If anyone here needs a refresher, I will post a link to my prior analysis where I included great detail under another topic.The fact of the matter is that there isn’t much interest in this series and there is no reason to believe it is going to increase except maybe minimally. That these coins are scarce or rare (whether in grade or otherwise) isn’t going to change this either. Except for expatriates and Commonwealth collectors, I don’t believe anyone else aside from your buyers really want these coins basically for the same reason I explained in my posts for expensive ZAR and the VOC coin you profiled.

 

As I surmised in the past, the primary (not exclusive) likely buyers of graded Southern Rhodesia are almost certainly collectors in your country, not anywhere else. And the primary reason I believe they are bought is because most believe as you apparently do, that they can make a big profit off of them as occurred earlier with ZAR and Union.

 

Lastly, as I have also explained for Union, if Southern Rhodesia is as scarce as you believe, the supply constraints are also going to impede their future prices, even assuming my other claims turn out to be inaccurate.

 

Oh on the 1944 Union shilling, I knew it was scarce before 2009 since I bought the one which is now in Bakewell's collection in 2008 from DNW. You could have bought it from DNW but did not. I paid $50 USD for t ungraded..

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
On the Southern Rhodesia series, you are repeating the same misconceptions that have been repeated here before.

 

First, yes these coins are presumably scarce as the census indicates but no, the census is (or was not at the time) not representative of the actual availability as I have explained for Union, ZAR, this series and others on this forum many times. These are once again principally the dislike among most Commonwealth collectors and the few who collect this series for TPG.And second, the low market price. The reason for the latter is that most collectors are not profit maximixers who are trying to squeze every USD, rand or cent out of their collections.

 

On their financial prospects, I have covered this many times before,.If anyone here needs a refresher, I will post a link to my prior analysis where I included great detail under another topic.The fact of the matter is that there isn’t much interest in this series and there is no reason to believe it is going to increase except maybe minimally. That these coins are scarce or rare (whether in grade or otherwise) isn’t going to change this either. Except for expatriates and Commonwealth collectors, I don’t believe anyone else aside from your buyers really want these coins basically for the same reason I explained in my posts for expensive ZAR and the VOC coin you profiled.

 

As I surmised in the past, the primary (not exclusive) likely buyers of graded Southern Rhodesia are almost certainly collectors in your country, not anywhere else. And the primary reason I believe they are bought is because most believe as you apparently do, that they can make a big profit off of them as occurred earlier with ZAR and Union.

 

Lastly, as I have also explained for Union, if Southern Rhodesia is as scarce as you believe, the supply constraints are also going to impede their future prices, even assuming my other claims turn out to be inaccurate.

 

Oh on the 1944 Union shilling, I knew it was scarce before 2009 since I bought the one which is now in Bakewell's collection in 2008 from DNW. You could have bought it from DNW but did not. I paid $50 USD for t ungraded..

 

Well Ernesto,

 

I am not trying to squeeze out as you put it every $ out of my collection at all. I dont collect with a cash register in my hand!!! I collect for the simple reason that I just adore having something that I can admire as a thing that is truly rare, old and or attractive. I might sell it if I find a better one but making profit is not my main motive. I also have a liking for History as indicated by coins. For no politician can change the coins minted in the past as they are fond of rewriting the history books.

 

The posting I made was simply to illustrate how the market often does not see scarcity until it is too late. The buyers of Southern Rhodesia are certainly not confined to any country for every time I sell these coins on ebay I get buyers from USA, China, Russia and the UK.. Certainly those from Russia and China cannot be Rhodesian expatriates. They have almost NEVER been from South Africa so you are again wrong in your assumption that this is a market restricted to Africa or a few expats. I dont know or care what the origins of any buyer is. What I have seen over the years is a steady increase in number and extent of the Southern Rhodesian coins in both NGC and PCGS pop reports.

 

If you want to pretend that those threepences and sixpences are common as you have implied, I challenge you to show me any link now that will take me to a decent graded or gradeable specimen especially in the case of the 1934 Sixpence.

 

I also happen to have ongoing contacts family wise in Zimbabwe and pehaps I am hoping that given time and improved economic conditions, that country will make a comeback. In the 1970s and 80s, People were fleeing Africa to Europe and eslewhere to find jobs and futures there, these days with the recent downturn in Southern Europe , people are returning to Africa because they cannot find jobs in Europe. nothing is forever and pendulums swing.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Where did I say the coins you mentioned are common? I didn't say it. What I said is that you cannot use your personal experience or the census records alone to evaluate the scarcity and you cannot. I have already explained to you multiple times that most collectors outside the USA don't care about TPG. This isn't opinion. It is fact. Yet you continue to pretend otherwise. If anyone is ignoring the facts , it is you because I have pointed this out and other assumptions you continue to make which are either obviously wrong or there is a much better reason to believe the claims I have made than yours.

 

On the buyers, obviously I making some assumptions. I never said there weren't any foreign buyers. What I am telling you is that this buying is financially irrelevant. Do you have any evidence that it is more than that? This is (once again) a literalist interpretation my posts, just as you did with ZAR. What kind of money are we talking about here? Let me guess, it is another exaggeration, just as your prior claims about Eliasberg and expensive ZAR generally. As if Eliasbeg had any preference for ZAR at all. Particularly in your recent posts you have exaggerated the significance of your data which doesn't remotely support your claims.

 

If you think my claims on this series and ZAR are so off base and wrong, then go ahead and try to refute them.

 

Like so many others, you have an inflated opinion of the merits of the coins you prefer to others. The common theme in my recent posts on this subject (ZAR, VOC and this one) is that these coins aren't on hardly any collectors "radar", just as 95%+ of others aren't. This happens to be a SA forum but I state the same opinion on NGC for other coins.

 

Your last paragraph, I don’t know what it has to do with this subject. If you are implying that you believe an improvement in the Zimbabwe economy is going to lead to increased interest in these coins, there isn’t any support to such a claim at all. It has even less correlation than it does in South Africa. Many people believe it but given the trivial sums involved in the aggregate, the correlation between economic conditions and prices is unmeasurable. I agree it is relevant in countries such as the United States and the UK but not in most but this is because the participation is so much greater..

 

Lastly, my “profit maximization” comments were not directed at you. They are directed to the readers of this post generally and the reason I make them is because its apparent that the preference for TPG leads to the result where many marginally financial coins end up in the census. Outside of the US and apparently in your country, collectors don’t do that.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

A VOC Pattern Half Duit in Silver

 

Hi Guys,

 

Have you ever seen this one? We all know that VOC Duits and Half Duits are usually seen in Copper.

 

Here is a slighly damaged 1757 VOC Half Duit from Gelderland in Silver and is listed in Krause amongst the Patterns under Netherlands East Indies as PnA1 . It is the only one with a reeded edge. Scholten (The Coins of the Dutch Overseas Territories 1601-1948) does not mention it although he has a number of references to proof strikes of such Half Doits and full Duits in Silver and even Gold from the provinces. This coin is definitely not a Proof.

 

There are only three other Patterns listed and are all full Duits, two from Gelderland and one from West Friesland (KM PnB1,C1 and D1)

 

NGC has yet to grade a NEI Pattern Duit or Half Duit

 

Must be very rare, what do you think?

 

Geejay

58f5a75324d1f_1757PatternHalfDuitNEIGelderlandObv1.jpg.45e87ae459a354c954d7cba3b62df9a1.jpg

58f5a7532bb9c_1757PatternHalfDuitNEIGelderlandRev.jpg.ca3c790271dabfe5e861291b3b13b339.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jcriller

what a beautiful coin

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Pierre_Henri

I found this ...

 

"Deze zilveren afslagen van 1757 zijn proefstukken en hebben een kartelrand".

 

VOC.1 Gelderland halve duit zilver.(Scholten 384)VOORZIJDE: Het V.O.C. monogram met daarboven een kraanvogel tussen rozetten, onder het monogram het jaartal.KEERZIJDE: Gekroond wapen van Gelderland. Tekst: IN DEO SP. NOS dit betekent: onze hoop in de Heer.

 

This might be an unique coin?

Edited by Pierre_Henri

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

Your claim that interest in the most expensive coins is what drives interest in numismatics isn’t accurate, plain and simple. Obviously, many collectors (but not necessarily most) aspire to and would like to buy the rarest coins (which in most countries, certainly is not evaluated by the TPG grade), but if your claim was an accurate description of other countries, then collecting in the United States and elsewhere where the participation is much broader would have the same level of popularity it apparently does in your country. This comment actually supports my claims much better than yours though you apparently.

 

Hi Folks,

 

I have had to revise my ideas about where the pool of certainly Dutch and VOC coins lie.

 

Winston Churchill had a saying "I have never developed indigestion from eating my own words".

 

The change in outlook started when I was given a Catalogue by Eddy Absil from Absils who also is a major part of Schulman Auction House in Amsterdam at the Netherlands. They had a huge Auction of coins in April 2015 that were mainly Dutch but also included other world coins. There was no Internet component though - it seemed to have been a traditional type of Auction for an Auction house that has a history going back 135 years into the 19th Century (Jaques Schulman). Heritage has a history of only 35 years and claims to be the third biggest in the world. Schulman will under each coin description give you the perceived scarcity according to authoritative references like Delmonde, Davenport and Scholten as well as the number of times that particular coin has been dealt with by that auction house in the past hundred or so years. There were beautiful colour and black and white high quality pictures of the coins and the catalogue was a hard covered 655 page masterpiece. There was the best collection of VOC Ducatons I have ever seen and numbered 11 separate coins none of which appeared to be a forgery. Of those 11 coins, one was in an NGC capsule - Unc details with cleaning, the rest were raw. There was the biggest colletion of Gold Old Dutch Riders ever presented as well as numerous Piedfort Silver Riders.Almost none had see the American Third Party Graders !!! I was truly gobsmacked at this treasure. In the editorial written by Eddy Absil, he mentioned that a number of coins came from the collection of the late Virgil M Brand (1862-1926) , a batchelor from Chicago who assembled a staggering collection of 368,000 coins in his fairly short life. His financial support came from a Beer Brewery that he owned and for him he had unlimited interests and almost unlimited means. He also had a firm determination to get each coin on which he had set his sights on.

 

I would encourage all of you to google Mr Brand. Interesting guy - he was off course a batchelor, married to his coins.

 

Just looking also at the extensive Kuenker Coin Catalogues I get in the post, many of those European coins are never graded.

 

So for all the traditional non internet based,non third party based collectors, there is a big support base in Europe.

 

In the case of VOC Ducatons for example, in all of Heritage, I have seen around seven coins over a number of auctions of which two were graded. Its a small indication that despite the huge financial outlay of Heritage, they have not managed to corner the major Dutch collections. The same can be said for NGC and PCGS.

 

I have certainly been shown another side to Numismatics. We do not know how big certain pools are !!

 

If you can get that Catalogue , it will be very enlightening.

 

Geejay

 

 

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jwither

Below, I include the link to the recently completed sale of a 1954 NGC PR-68 1/- which recently sold for $57. Its a coin I meant to bid on but just forgot to do so.

 

I illustrate this price to contrast it with the 1953 NGC PR-68 and 1957 PR-67 RD 1/4D profiled in my prior post which sold for over 10 times this price. Just another day of roulette when selling these coins.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-SOUTH-AFRICA-SHILLING-1S-NGC-PF68-FINEST-KNOWN-STUNNING-COIN-/191602226677?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=s6KcbUEhI6mX2Oqp3uwdO2XFvdU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

On a more interesting note, Heritage has a large selection of high grade ZAR up for sale. There are quite a few duplicates of some of the scarcer dates. Check it out if you have not done so.

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geejay50

Hi Guys,

 

I would concur with the previous posting about the upcoming Heritage Auction in 12 days time.

 

The coin that stands out for me is the 1893 Two and a half Shilling NGC MS63 pop1 Shared at NGC . There is just one other MS63 coin at PCGS and this was part of the Bakewell collection going unsold on 17,000 GBP at DNW . My experience that at MS63 level or above, PCGS and NGC do not differ much in grading standards - anybody has other experiences?? Input welcome.

 

These are tough times economically with commodity prices at their lowest since 2002 with blood baths in mining shares on the SA stock exchange on the back of the slow down in the Chinese economy..

 

It will be interesting to see if the rare coin prices can buck the trend.

 

Other coins of interest at Heritage : A PCGS MS67 1896 3d (pop1) , PCGS MS66 1894 6d (Pop1) , NGC MS65 1892 1/- (pop2) and some 1892 Silver Proofs in PF65 (also Pop1).

 

No George V or VI high end coins on offer except for a 1928 Pf Farthing which I think a bit overpriced as it is not unique (about 3 graded at NGC & PCGS) .One recalls the high price ($22,325) that the PCGS MS61 1926 Halfcrown fetched in the prior auction (April 2015).There is also a 1939 Proof set for those who can afford it.

 

At the end of last month, an XF45 NGC 1926 Halfcrown sold for a mere R3689 , about 1.4% or 70 times less than the price of the MS61 coin - and XF45 is about fifth best grade in a desperately scarce coin. Makes you think doesnt it??

 

See you soon

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither
Hi Guys,

 

These are tough times economically with commodity prices at their lowest since 2002 with blood baths in mining shares on the SA stock exchange on the back of the slow down in the Chinese economy..

 

It will be interesting to see if the rare coin prices can buck the trend.

 

 

 

This is a subject which has come up on numerous occassions from a number of contributors. I provide another reply here since this is the most widely read topic on this forum.

 

To my knowledge, South Africa's economic conditions are not very good now and haven't been for the last few years. However, I don't see that this has much to do with the price level of the coin market in your country. According to Wikipedia, South Africa's GDP is in the vicinity of $400B USD. My estimate of the total value of ZAR, Union and RSA "investment" coins is in the vicinity of maybe $100MM USD or slightly more by the definition of those here. This is a "guesstimate" using the population reports and bullion substitutes such as the Natura and KR.

 

I don't know how many buyers exist. In the past, I recall a number of 6000 for the South African Coin Company but these were probably mostly buying the Mandela coins. I don't believe the "serious" collector base is no more than 10,000. I also don't see that the population reports support a much higher number either, as explained in my prior posts on coins valued above $10,000 USD which I estimated as 500, 250 for the veld and Burgers ponds and 250 for all others.

 

In other topics, some have speculated that the decline in gold prices has been a factor. I agree there is an apparent correlation since these coins peaked near the 2011 peak price in gold and also rallied for the entire 2001-2011 period. However, correlation is not causation, particularly since there aren't very many coins in the South African series which I see as a real substitute. Those that I do see include all gold issues and maybe a few others such as the 1892 5/-, as these coins fit the same profile marketed to non-collectors as "investments" in the United States.

 

As for mining shares, it's true they have been "hammered", though i have not paid attention to your broader stock market. At the same time, I also don't see that this makes any difference to coin prices unless those who own them happen to have a noticeable percentage of their assets in them. If they do, this is still more of a function of the personal financial circumstances of these (prospective) buyers than anything else, especially since I don't see that mining share owners or buyers are necessarily potential coin buyers.

 

Another point that I reiterate here is that the price performance since YE 2011 is the strongest indicator that there is very little demand for your coins at local prices by foreigners. If this was not true, then prices would not have declined as much as they have because minimal buying by non-locals can easily support your prior price level.

 

The view I have expressed in the past and do so now is not a popular one here but the weight of the evidence better supports that the prior price level was the result of a bubble more than the economy (which wasn't exactly that great to my knowledge in 2011 either) or metal prices. If this is corect as I believe it to be, then the current market is NOT necessarily "depressed" or "abnormally low", as there is nothing "normal" about bubble level prices.

 

I consider the prices of some SA coins "cheap" but disproportionately certainly not the ones favored by those who post here. This should be self-evident from the price structure because I don't see how anyone can posibily believe that the price spreads for such minimal differences in (supposed) quality are remotely normal. Anyone can verify this repeated claim I have made by comparing your market to the United States or any others.

 

 

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Pierre_Henri

It took me 20 minutes of hellish struggle to know where I am on the "new" forum. Hell, its a battle - can someone at BidorBuy please just push a button to get us back to the old forum where one at least understand what goes where?

 

Or am I missing something? I just cannot find my way around the new set up.

 

As soon as I post this reply it will take me another 20 minutes to get back here again where I started ...

 

Pierre

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geejay50

 

Hi Folks,

 

 

In the case of VOC Ducatons for example, in all of Heritage, I have seen around seven coins over a number of auctions of which two were graded. Its a small indication that despite the huge financial outlay of Heritage, they have not managed to corner the major Dutch collections. The same can be said for NGC and PCGS.

 

 

Geejay

 

 

Well folks,

 

I dont know whether the above posting had anything to do with it but Heriitage has anounced that they are opening a branch in Amsterdam in conjunction with the Dutch MPO auction house to be centrally placed in the European numismatic market.The email came through this morning.

 

This comes on the back of the opening of their recent Hong Kong branch.

 

Apologies for the poor display below, its a bit more of the "New" Forum design that Pierre and many others have complained about.

 

Geejay [TABLE=border: 0, cellpadding: 0, width: 100]

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[TD]Heritage Auctions global expansion continues with new European office in the Netherlands [/TD]

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[TD]Heritage Auctions has announced that it has joined forces with the Dutch auction house MPO Auctions to form Heritage Auctions Europe, based in Amsterdam, Netherlands, officially operating and offering full service in numismatics and across all 40 Heritage auction categories as of Aug. 1, 2015. The Amsterdam expansion joins Heritage's recently announced Hong Kong expansion. [TABLE=border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 100]

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[TD]europe3.jpg[/TD]

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"Heritage is a growing global brand," said Cristiano Bierrenbach, Vice President of Heritage Auctions. "We're all excited by the opportunities this office represents. Based just outside of Amsterdam, a convenient central location in Europe, Heritage is now even better suited to serve our European clients who will not have direct access to Heritage's global audience of bidders."

 

MPO Auctions made its reputation primarily as a coin company, also dealing in stamps and occasionally other collectibles. The new venue will be run by current MPO heads Jacco Scheper and Huib Pelzer, both experienced and well-known numismatists with more than two decades each of experience.

 

"We're excited to continue providing excellent results and service for our European clients," said Scheper, "and even more excited we can offer them the potential to reach Heritage's extensive clientele across all 40 categories."

 

"We want to make sure that all MPO's clients are aware that they'll continue working with the same staff as before," said Bierrenbach, "they'll now just be part of Heritage Auctions Europe, and will get all the benefits that come with a company as large and capable as Heritage coupled with the care and attention that they have traditionally gotten at MPO when it was a smaller firm. Customer service has always been at the heart of the Heritage model. Nothing at all will change on that front."

 

Back to Top[/TD]

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Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Heritage Galleries Auction 13th August 2015

 

Hi Everybody,

 

The above auction containing a fairly small number of higher value coin lots for South Africa (I followed 12) , was watched with interest in this setting of economic downturn.

Of the twelve lots, ten were sold and two unsold and in Rands , R1,406,467 million was the total cost of coins sold (including buyers premium and SA VAT) at an exchange rate of 12 ZAR to the USD. The average real price of lot sold was about R140,646 therefore.

 

I will list the lots (apologies if this is boring)

 

1888 OFS Copper Nickel Proof Cameo Unsold at $5875 (R80,370)

1896 3d PCGS MS67 - lovely toning- $4935 (R67,511) 5 bidders

1892 6d PCGS PF65 - $4465 (R61,081) 4 bidders

1894 6d PCGS MS66 (pop1 and one other MS66 at NGC) $11,162 (R152,696) 5 bidders

18921/- NGC MS65 (pop2) $3290 (R45,007) 3 bidders

1892 1/- PCGS PF65 $3995 (R54,651) 2 bidders

1892 2/- PCGS PF65 $5640 (R77,155) 4 bidders

1892 2/6 PCGS PF64+ Unsold at $4700 (R64,296)

1893 2/6 NGC MS63 (pop1 shared with one other at NGC and one at PCGS-Bakewell coll) $18,800 (R257,184) 9 bidders

1892 5/- NGC PF63 $16450 (R225.036) 1 bidder

1928 PCGS Blackened PF Farthing Unsold at $7050 (R96,444)

1939 Proof Set $29,375 (R401,850) 6 bidders

 

Some comments to make: No ZAR Gold at all was included for the first time that I have watched these auctions. PCGS did not get lower prices than NGC. Overall the South African Rare coins did very well coming from a downturn in the SA economy , I was quite surprised to see how resilient the market is and we can draw confidence in the safe haven that they have shown certainly at the level of high grades.

The six bidders that competed for the 1939 Proof set bear testimony that it is not only the ZAR group that has support.

Tragically I noticed one 1994 Presidential Inauguration R5 Pf68 Cameo that fetched a mere $36 in the same auction inclusive of Buyers Premium - below current cost of grading. This is surely the last word on where value lies in our Rare Coin market?

 

I would like to add two coins that I followed that will not be seen very often. They are two German East Africa 15 Rupien (Tabora Ponden) , one MS63 PCGS that sold for $9400 (R128,592) and an MS64 NGC that sold for $7637 (R104,481). Those are both strong prices and reflect the prevailing interest in these coins. Also of note again is the respect that PCGS receives world wide, perhaps more so in some quarters than NGC.

 

Input welcome

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Geejay,

 

The reason the selection was limited is because this was not primarily a world coin auction. The Long Beach auction is next month and this is when most of the world coin lots listed on Heritage will be sold.

 

As for the prices, I would rate it a mixed bag.

 

The 1892 proof 5/- I would rate as strong, selling for about 33% more than the last Heritage sale in 2012 when the market was stronger. Coins are in the same grade and look approximately equal in quality.

 

I consider the 1939 proof set weak, though it was impacted by the presence of one "details" coin (the 2/-) but at the same time contained three high grade cameos, including the 2/6. The prior two sales were for about $32,000 and $51,000.

 

I rate the price of the 1893 2/6 as average. This coin is scarce in better grades and I think the buyer got a decent value. Its about the same as the 1895 MS-64 2/- from the Mitchell sale last year on DNW.

 

I don't recall recent prices of the other 1892 proofs and I didn't evaluate them specifically for their actual quality versus other specimens offered by Heritage. The weakest was the 1892 PR-64+ 2/6 which failed to sell. The last Heritage sale occurred in 2012 for another PR-64 (NGC with no "+") for $8625. Also, for those who do not know it, all of these coins were listed on the Atlas Numismatics website here in the United States. Atlas Numismatics is a coin dealer owned by a former associate who worked at Northeast Numismatics (NEN) who many here know.

 

As for your other comments, you are still beating the same dead horse. Though I expect all of these coins were bought by buyers in your country, these results say absolutely nothing about your economy because the sale of a measly $125,000 has no relation to it whatsoever. The sale of those two German East African coins also says nothing whatsoever on the acceptance of PCGS (or NGC) worldwide either, especially since you have no idea who even bought these two coins unless you know the buyers. But even if you do, every comment I have made on this subject of buyer preference for UNGRADED coins outside of the countries I previously listed still stands for the reasons I previously gave.

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

The reason the selection was limited is because this was not primarily a world coin auction. The Long Beach auction is next month and this is when most of the world coin lots listed on Heritage will be sold.

 

 

 

As for your other comments, you are still beating the same dead horse. Though I expect all of these coins were bought by buyers in your country, these results say absolutely nothing about your economy because the sale of a measly $125,000 has no relation to it whatsoever..

 

Hi Ernesto and everybody,

 

I would admit that I may have overinterpreted the prices of the latest Heritage Auction. You can draw your own conclusions but I still think it is of some use to record a group of high value coins and their prices as we have no other reliable forum.

 

What I do encourage all serious SA collectors is to look at the Heritage Long Beach World Signature Auction coming up in September (thanks for the heads up Ernesto) ....there South Africa has 191 coin lots for sale and this will definitely be a landmark in our Numismatic history. Just to mention a few high end coins, MS64 Veldpond, MS63 Sammy Marks Tickey,MS65 1892RD Penny, MS65 1896 Two Shilling , MS63 1896 Shilling , MS62 and AU53 Finebeard Burgersponden, MS66 1892 Halfpond , PF58 1892 Halfpond,MS64 1895 Halfcrown , MS61 1893 Halfcrown,MS64 1894 Halfcrown, MS64 1894 Two Shilling etc etc etc . These are coins from some of the top SA collections....There are also some impressive Union George V coins like an AU55 1925 Wreath Tickey,MS65 1923 1/- and many very decent MS quality ZAR coins in a more affordable range.

 

The prices fetched here will give us a better indication as to if SA Rare Coins can buck the downward side of the SA Economy.Once again Heritage has cornered the best in South African Numismatics.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Geejay,

 

I agree there are some really nice coins up for sale next month. Of the ones you mentioned though, I don't see the 1925 wreath tickey as one of them. I haven't looked at it recently but I recall it as not remotely what an AU-55 should look like. It's appearance is more consistent with what I would expect from an XF or even VF.

 

 

Note: I just went and looked at the 3d again. It's certainly not an XF but I still don't see it as an AU-55. The reverse is really nice but the obverse, not really.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Assessing high quality Southern Rhodesian Coins

 

Hi Everybody,

 

If the South African Coin market is becoming close to fully graded (certainly ZAR and Union) and therefore less challenging for the Numismatist, it seems to me that in the Southern Rhodesian market there is still some room to find high quality coins that will do well in graded form. I expect this stock to rapidly disappear into capsules as the price of graded coins rises.

 

John Keogh in his book "On coins of Rhodesia-Zimbabwe" gives us his view of what constitutes basic grading parameters using the old English system (EF,VF,F and VG) he leaves out Unc.

 

I recently sent a 1934 Sixpence to NGC which I thought was Uncirculated and was surprised to get it back as AU58 . That sixpence has the second lowest mintage at 214 000 after the 1939 sixpence at 200 000. In my coin there were one or two contact marks in the Obverse field but there was full lustre and tellingly, the wiring on the war axes was perfect - that in John Keogh's book defines a high quality 6d. Please see pics compared to an AU58 1939 6d where there is slight wear.

 

I sent the coin back for a regrade (one pays $30 for the service) and it was given MS62.

 

Grading is a matter of opinion and one can criticize NGC for mistakes but we have no option but to work within their system. There just is no alternative in this world to NGC and or PCGS.

 

Geejay

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jwither

Geejay,

 

What exactly is your definition of "fully graded"?

 

It should be apparent given that TPG has been preferred in your country since at least 2004 which is when I started seeing a lot more of these coins in NGC holders on eBay that the supply of ungraded coins is lower but what percentage this is depends upon which coin your are talking about and the particular grade.

 

For the scarcest and most expensive, I do now and have presumed that the actual number is not that much greater than what has been in the reports for quite a while but it is an open question whether this is true proportionately. As an example, the 1925 Union florin has two MS. There may be none more available or there may be more outside of it than in it, as in more than two.

 

For other scarce coins such as the low mintage KGVI 2/ and 2/6, I previously provided a snapshot of how they have increased at two different time points. The absolute numbers remain low but the proportional increase was significant. As an example, in 2010 or 2011 when the count in MS for the 1949 2/6 was a combined (NGC and PCGS) was 20, I exchanged messages with a collector in your country where I speculated that the actual number is at least twice or 40. Today, it is 34. Presumably, there are one or more duplicates but I don't believe many because the price difference for most MS grades hardly makes it worth the bother, not to mention the low probability of an upgrade. I suspect the actual number is more than 40 given the current counts.

 

With the majority of higher grade KGVI and QEII, there isn't a reason to believe AT ALL that the counts are anywhere near complete. Recently, I bought a 1953 NGC MS-65 1/- for $25. The count is eight in this grade with two in 66 (one which was previously mine). Whoever I bought this coin from (a dealer here in the US), they almost certainly lost money on it. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that whoever owns coins like this one will be bothered to have them graded, absolutely none at all. Not at current prices

 

On ZAR, you can look at the latest DNW auction. There are many "high quality" ZAR (as in apparently high AU to at least low MS) and all or almost all of them are not graded. In the past, DNW has sold most ZAR and Union in NGC holders. That they did not do so this time tells me one of two things. First, its possible that they won't get a numerical grade and DNW suspects it but this is very unlikely for all of them. Or second, more likely the results of the Bakewell auction led them to believe that the incremental price isn't worth the bother of doing it. My opinion is that most of the scarcest dates in higher grades are in a holder (and have been) but not necessarily the more common ones.

 

For Southern Rhodesia, my prediction is that the numbers won't increase much (in absolute terms) for the reasons I already gave you. The prime one being that predominantly, the ONLY owners who will submit these coins are those in your country and the United States, not anyone else. And no, I don't believe most of these coins are anywhere near as scarce as the census counts today.

 

Have you ever looked at the population reports (census) for coins from countries that you do not collect? Seriously, have you ever done it? I suspect the answer is "no" because if you have, it would be self evident to you that the explanations I have been providing to you for six years now are a lot more accurate than this claim you keep on making.

 

Lastly, I also find your comment interesting on the challenge in finding South African coins, unless of course, you are only talking about finding ungraded coins that are candidates to be worth a lot more in a holder. Something I might add, which doesn't have anything to do with collecting at all.. Since I suspect that none of you who participate on this forum look at the census counts, auctions and dealer websites except for the coins you collect either, you don't have much of a perspective on the relative scarcity.

 

I can tell you that though Union and ZAR are not as scarce as the other coins I collect, there is plenty of a challenge (relatively speaking) in both the Union and ZAR series. Its my impression that for ZAR, collectors in your country actively try to collect the entire series and not just in the highest grades. For Union, given the price spreads and the comments here, its apparent that hardly anyone cares.

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jwither

Here is a thread on the price performance in one segment of the US market. Yes, it also happens to higher quality US material, the difference being that the USD is just a teeny bit more stable than the Rand.

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=954306&enterthread=y

 

Here is another thread from PCGS which should re-enforce a point I have made here for a long time. Notice the difference in collecting interest in the aggregate? To get a better understanding of the posts, ignore the title of the topic because most didn't actually respond to it.

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=954161&enterthread=y

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Pierre_Henri
Here is a thread on the price performance in one segment of the US market. Yes, it also happens to higher quality US material, the difference being that the USD is just a teeny bit more stable than the Rand.

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=954306&enterthread=y

 

Here is another thread from PCGS which should re-enforce a point I have made here for a long time. Notice the difference in collecting interest in the aggregate? To get a better understanding of the posts, ignore the title of the topic because most didn't actually respond to it.

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=954161&enterthread=y

 

 

Interesting post that about the guy who tried to artificially tone his coin in yellow paper left on the window sill.

 

With a very few exceptions, I have never really tried to alter any coin’s appearance with dips, doepa’s and dodgy broths.

 

The only coin I will dip nowadays if I have to, is an uncirculated coin.

 

But I guess a large percentage of coins in NGC and PCGS holders had a little tender love and care beforehand.

 

So if they accept that, who am I to complain?

 

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jwither

 

 

Interesting post that about the guy who tried to artificially tone his coin in yellow paper left on the window sill.

 

With a very few exceptions, I have never really tried to alter any coins appearance with dips, doepas and dodgy broths.

 

The only coin I will dip nowadays if I have to, is an uncirculated coin.

 

But I guess a large percentage of coins in NGC and PCGS holders had a little tender love and care beforehand.

 

So if they accept that, who am I to complain?

 

There is a huge premium for "monster" toned coins and a much smaller but frequently substantial one for "original skin" in the US at this time and has been at least since I started posting on the NGC Message Boards in 2006. This is in contrast to the (apparent) preference everywhere or most everywhere else for untoned coins which is why a disproportionate percentage of older non-US coins are "white". There are also many "white" US coins of course but there seem to be fewer of them proportionately from my anecdotal experience.

 

There is a recent topic on the NGC Message Boards discussing some Morgan dollar (I believe an 1879-S) which recently sold for in the vicinity of $12,000 USD, an absolutely preposterous price as far as I am concerned. The coin isn't remotely scarce, even in this grade and the idea that the eye appeal is so unique and significant to warrant a multiple which I believe approaches 20 to most examples in this grade is absolutely ridiculous. I said so of course and the last contributor I exchanged posts with took exception to it, not that I give a hoot. He and anyone who prefers coins like this can rationalize it all they want but there isn't anything remotely significant about it to justify this type of price. It is a totally ordinary and numismatically mediocre coin selling for an astronomical price.

 

Due to these premiums, there are a substantial number of US coins which have been "artificially" toned in an attempt to make them more valuable. I put "artificial" in quotes because while many US collectors claim to be able to identify it and to some extent this is true, I don't see that it makes any difference whether it is actually artificial or not. The coin is either attractive or it isn't, regardless of how it came to look that way. However, since NGC and PCGS assign "detail" grades to "artificially" toned coins, it's economics, just as it is with cleaned coins, many of which end up in a numerically graded holder anyway.

 

I suspect that most of the better Union coins were cleaned at one time, regardless of whether they are currently assigned a numerical grade. It certainly isn't impossible for a coin aged up to 92 years (a 1923) to remain without toning. However, the low proportion I see toned in and out of TPG holders leads me to believe this is true. I know this was true in the US at least until recent times (as in at least up to 1975 when I started collecting) because the dealer I bought most of my coins when I first started collecting must have done it. It didn't matter which coin it was, all of them were without toning, even 18th century types in grades like VF or XF. it's one thing for a coin with "cartwheel luster" in a grade of 63 or better to look this way, but another entirely for average or higher circulated grades. With Union, I suspect many (most?) MS-61 and MS-62 were cleaned in the past. It's one of the reasons for the lower MS grades they currently have.

 

I don't track that many series in detail, but as I have commented here before, my primary series today is the Spanish colonial pillars struck from 1732-1772. Given their age, they should all be toned and some of them very darkly. There are a disproportionate percentage especially in NGC holders up to lower MS grades which are blast white but look dull from the images. I own one such coin but it has full luster and it is graded MS-64. It is an attractive coin but it would look much better if it were toned commensurate with its age. It must have been dipped in the past though I see no evidence of it.

 

The reason I bring this series up is because its annoying to see better coins assigned lower grades all the way down to XF-45 that are darkly toned versus others that are blast white graded up to MS-62 which are inferior. In the last 18 months, I have bought about half a dozen pillars which I will probably submit next year and I suspect that some, most or all may end up in holders with grades below these unattractive dull lifeless specimens I described. It won't change what I buy but it increases the economic risk especially when buying ungraded coins from images as I do with all of my coins.

 

 

 

 

 

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Pierre_Henri

 

The reason I bring this series up is because its annoying to see better coins assigned lower grades all the way down to XF-45 that are darkly toned versus others that are blast white graded up to MS-62 which are inferior. In the last 18 months, I have bought about half a dozen pillars which I will probably submit next year and I suspect that some, most or all may end up in holders with grades below these unattractive dull lifeless specimens I described. It won't change what I buy but it increases the economic risk especially when buying ungraded coins from images as I do with all of my coins.

 

 

The best 1892 ZAR 2/6- I ever saw raw was darkly toned and got a MS62 from NGC because, I presume, it was not blast white. It was a superb coin. What is it with grading companies and darkly toned coins?

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jwither

 

The best 1892 ZAR 2/6- I ever saw raw was darkly toned and got a MS62 from NGC because, I presume, it was not blast white. It was a superb coin. What is it with grading companies and darkly toned coins?

 

Here are some coins from the Rudman collection of Mexican pillar coinage I am looking to buy which will be offered by Heritage at the January NYINC sale. I won't buy all of them but a few.

 

1763 NGC MS-64 1R

http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/charl...links-12202013

 

1763 NGC AU-55 8R

http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/charl...links-12202013

 

1770 NGC AU-55 4R

http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/charl...links-12202013

 

This one isn't a pillar but has been on my list for a long time. I am looking to Buy one of each denomination for a type set and lack the 4R and 8R.

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/spain/philip...links-12202013

 

There are too many to show but anyone can compare these four and others to the many higher graded coins which are "blast white". (Generally), they have better detail but have obviously been cleaned in the past and many of them are not particularly attractive either.

 

Here is another one I won't be buying. This coin is actually a VF which has been "net graded", since if it were most other coins it would have received a "details" designation. Both NGC and PCGS are known for leniency on known rarities. Though the 1732 8R is the most popular in the series due its size and as the first pillar dollar, this denomination is much scarcer. It is one of the "highest quality" specimens known, as there aren't any remotely approaching MS. I suspect this F-15 will sell in the vicinity of $10,000 since the 1760 PCGS VF-35 Colombia 1R sold for about $15,000. Despite the surface issues, its actually a pretty decent coin.

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/world...iption-071515#

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geejay50

VOC Ducatoons

 

I am repeating myself but make no apology for doing so. South Africa was ruled by the biggest multinational private company in the world at the time from 1652 to 1795 or 143 years in the form of the VOC. That company declared an annual dividend for almost all but two of the 193 years during which it existed.At one stage it had a fleet of 150 Trading Ships , Fifty Warships and an army of 10,000 at its disposal to defend its interests.

 

It was prevented from minting its own silver Ducatoons by the Dutch Government and even threatened with a fine of 1000 Ducatoons for every VOC Ducatoon that differed from the design as laid down in 1726 until in 1728 the first VOC Ducatoons were minted by the six provinces of Holland, Zeeland,Westfrisia, Gelderland Utrecht and Overyssel. The last minting happened in 1751 from Westfriesland . Big Silver Three Guldens, One Guldens and Ten Stuivers were also minted with the VOC emblem appearing on the reverse.

 

The VOC Ducatoon along with to a lesser extent the VOC Three Gulden have become extremely sought after by Numismatists worldwide it seems.The Obverse Inscription "IN USUM SOCIET.IND.ORIENT" or for use in the East India Company (Scholten explanation) makes it clear where these were to be used and although the Cape Colony was part of the East,it is not sure if the Ducatoons ,3 Guldens and Guilders that De Mist found at the Cape in circulation in 1803 (Engelbrecht pg25) had VOC emblems or not. I think personally that they could have been a mixture and because of melting of silver in the East, have become extremely scarce.

 

I know a friend who has been in the privileged position to have seen examples of every Ducatoon dived out off shipwrecks along the SA coast and he has never seen one with a VOC emblem. The late Dr Frank Mitchell was also very keen to know if any such VOC Ducatoons were dived out.

 

The last Heritage Auction saw hectic bidding on the 25 or so VOC Ducatoons offered and even those in NGC Details slabs received firm bidding. The reality is that there is a huge demand for authentic coins. One can speculate on who and why.I met a dealer from Amsterdam who assured me he would get top prices for me if I consigned any VOC Ducatoons to him to sell.

 

The only Mint State coin, a 1728 MS62 VOC Ducatoon W Friesland went for around $18,000 or about R342,000 -1728 is actually not the scarcest interestingly and has the most graded of all (Four coins).

In the NGC and PCGS Pop Reports, there are a total of 29 VOC Ducatoons graded between the 6 provinces (25 NGC and 4 PCGS).With the exception of 1728 West Friesland (Scholten S) , there are just one or two coins graded for each year and province and Scholten gives them from RR to RRRR.

 

 

I am doing this posting not actually to give a shopping list of prices - thats a bit boring.

 

I want to show you a coin that has really something unique that no other Ducatoon has and I include the non VOC Ducatoons. It is a unique mane design on the lions of the reverse for this already rare coin (Scholten RRRR) . I saw that there was something different in this coin at auction but only after winning it did the Penny drop .....the Auction description did not mention it certainly. There is no other example graded or not in this year and province that I can compare with (that scarce). All I can say is that the Reverse is more crudely struck than the Obverse with lettering of differing positions etc. I think the person who engraved the die took some artistic liberties with the lion manes....they look like flowers instead of flowing hair as usual......Another stand out feature of these two lions is the paucity of ribs showing below the mane- I can only count one or two- in other Ducatoons one can count up to five quite easily.I may be wrong but the coin itself looks a lot better than XF and despite the scratches is really in amazing condition....What do you think??

 

Please see pics

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n296146[/ATTACH]

Geejay

 

Edited by geejay50

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