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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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geejay50
I agree 100% - the prices of the SCoin shop that was posted here is ludicrous and mindbogeling ("Kan dit waar wees?" - that is what I asked Georg but was probaly misunderstood - seems like my post was read as if I support the SCoin shop guys - nothing could be further from the truth.

 

BUT, this is a free country and if you want to ask a million rand for a 1961 Half cent you are MORE than welcome to do so.

 

That is why I agree with Ernest that I ALSO do not see much difference. Piet Pompies is asking R100 for a coin worth R1 and John Doe is asking R1000 000 for a coin worth "only" a Hundred Thousand Rands - what exactly is the difference?

 

Both sellers are only fooling themselves. And both the prospective buyer(s) will get ripped off a hunderd times - but, as I have said, there is nothing illegal about this, they can ask a Gizillion-trillion (pinky in mouth) rands for their coins if they wish to do that.

 

Pierre

 

hi Pierre,

 

Thanks for clarifying your position with regard to the above SCoin Shop prices.

 

What irks me about SCoin Shop is that they obviously get first option on what the Mint produces and are very aggressive about marketing one ounce of pretty Gold Bullion for a cool R42,000 with some pro ANC them like Liliesleaf farm. Now I have only praise for those heroes like Govan Mbeki , Nelson Mandela, Harold Wolpe et al who stuck their necks out at a very dangerous time in then and suffered huge consequences as a result. What irks me is that now that that efort is long past, people who have nothing other to do than running glitsy shops in upmarket places in Airports etc like SCoin Shop are making a lovely profit on a R17,000 ounce of Gold.The harsh reality of those heroes who gave up their futures and youth for what they beleived has been tarnished by the obvious profits made above the Gold price - clearly not at all in the spirit of those sacrifices made !!!

 

Remember when the Reserve Bank had that release of the R5 with its logo on it about a year ago, The CEO of SCoin Shop was one of the speakers at that function where the theme was "BROADENING THE NUMISMATIC MARKET" . One would expect that sentiment to be carried through to some really market related prices for their offerings but no , the ZAR prices indicated before are way over the top and their pretty ounces of Gold etc with Mandela derivations etc are several times the cost of a simple Krugerrand.

 

The Krugerrand is still the most cost effective way of buying Gold bullion in my view and SCoin Shop are masters at cynically riding the politically correct (for the moment) commemoratives for their own profit.

 

 

My view

 

 

Geejay

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geejay50
I agree 100% - the prices of the SCoin shop that was posted here is ludicrous and mindbogeling ("Kan dit waar wees?" - that is what I asked Georg but was probaly misunderstood - seems like my post was read as if I support the SCoin shop guys - nothing could be further from the truth.

 

BUT, this is a free country and if you want to ask a million rand for a 1961 Half cent you are MORE than welcome to do so.

 

That is why I agree with Ernest that I ALSO do not see much difference. Piet Pompies is asking R100 for a coin worth R1 and John Doe is asking R1000 000 for a coin worth "only" a Hundred Thousand Rands - what exactly is the difference?

 

Both sellers are only fooling themselves. And both the prospective buyer(s) will get ripped off a hunderd times - but, as I have said, there is nothing illegal about this, they can ask a Gizillion-trillion (pinky in mouth) rands for their coins if they wish to do that.

 

Pierre

 

hi Pierre,

 

Thanks for clarifying your position with regard to the above SCoin Shop prices.

 

What irks me about SCoin Shop is that they obviously get first option on what the Mint produces and are very aggressive about marketing one ounce of pretty Gold Bullion for a cool R42,000 with some pro ANC theme like Liliesleaf farm. I have only praise for those heroes like Govan Mbeki , Nelson Mandela, Harold Wolpe et al who stuck their necks out at a dangerous time and suffered huge consequences as a result. What irks me is that now that that efort is long past, people who have nothing other to do than running glitsy shops in upmarket places in Airports etc like SCoin Shop are making a lovely profit on a R17,000 ounce of Gold.The harsh reality of those heroes who gave up their futures and youth for what they believed has been tarnished by the obvious profits made well above the Gold price - clearly not at all in the spirit of those sacrifices made !

 

Remember when the Reserve Bank had that release of the R5 with its logo on it about a year ago, The CEO of SCoin Shop was one of the speakers at that function where the theme was "BROADENING THE NUMISMATIC MARKET" . One would expect that sentiment to be carried through to some really market related prices for their offerings but no , the ZAR prices indicated before are way over the top and their pretty ounces of Gold etc with Mandela derivations etc are well over the cost of a simple Krugerrand or fraction thereof.

 

The Krugerrand is still the most cost effective way of buying Gold bullion in my view and SCoin Shop are masters at cynically riding the politically correct (for the moment) commemoratives for their own handsome profit.

 

 

My view

 

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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Cold Sea

Hi Geejay, here’s what I think.

 

Joe Public who is interested to invest some of his hard earned money, happen to go shopping with his partner at the local mall, or takes a plane to his next destination and sees a Scoin shop. He walks into a store which has a pleasant and relaxed atmosphere, with just enough on display to catch his interest. The newspaper marketing campaign kicks in and an “uneducated” Joe gets sold a gold investment coin at an inflated price and feels happy with his purchase of a scarce item.

 

Geejay, my sentiments are exactly yours and you should keep on posting about this. But what seems out of place here is competition. I cannot guess what percentage of walk-ins are successful, but there will always be the impulsive buyer. There are other factors I can think of, but nothing that cannot be cured by good old competition.

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geejay50
Hi Geejay, here’s what I think.

 

Geejay, my sentiments are exactly yours and you should keep on posting about this. But what seems out of place here is competition. I cannot guess what percentage of walk-ins are successful, but there will always be the impulsive buyer. There are other factors I can think of, but nothing that cannot be cured by good old competition.

 

Hi Cold Sea,

 

I am not going to beat this subject to death - there are more interesting things to post on in Numismatics to talk about than some ANC alligned Company who are getting rich thanks to their "preferred provider" status. Our society is already riddled with examples of people who can thank their livelihood to this and our Numismatic market has seen its fair share of people who using one on one pressure selling bully people with their unsubstantiated prices.Thank heavens for Coinguide SA - impartial collateral at last.

 

You say Competition is the answer - but SCoin Shop and other dealers get an "allocation" of recent Mint offerings on the basis of political patronage ?BEE possibly?? - that excludes competition as a solution to this racket and its slogan laced false advertising.

 

I say lets get back to true Numismatics where objective verifiable quality and surviving specimens are paramount - the REAL coins that were handled and used to pay for goods or Proofs that were made for ALL collectors and not just the politically chosen few !! Let all the people in the world benefit via the truly democratic Internet market from this wonderfully apolitical Numismatic Hobby / Investment that will outlive any Political Party.

 

Geejay

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Pierre_Henri

I say lets get back to true Numismatics where objective verifiable quality and surviving specimens are paramount - the REAL coins that were handled and used to pay for goods or Proofs that were made for ALL collectors and not just the politically chosen few !! Let all the people in the world benefit via the truly democratic Internet market from this wonderfully apolitical Numismatic Hobby / Investment that will outlive any Political Party. Geejay

 

Full Marks and Five Stars *****

 

Pierre

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geejay50

Scarce German East Africa 1893 Rupie as an Engraved Coin,

 

I recently obtained the above coin on ebay with the engraving of a probable British Soldier "G.Butcher No 266537 M.T.A.S.C. E.A. 1917-18-19 " on the Obverse and two holes made on either side - presumably using the coin with the personal details of that soldier as an identity tag. Googling the abbreviation M.T.A.S.C reveals that it was the abbreviation used for "Military Transport Army Service Corps"

 

I dont think it was made as so called "Trench Art" by a prisoner for the simple reason that the war ended in November 1918 in East Africa and by then, the Germans were outnumbered 10 to 1 by the Allied forces. They did not have the resources to look after prisoners and were fighting a running battle without ever being beaten. In fact they were of the opinion that they were winning the war when Major General von Lettow- Vorbeck whilst planning a new attack was notified that the war had been lost in Europe.

 

As Coins go the 1893 Rupie is very scarce in terms of gradable survivors - Mintage 142 000 - NGC and PCGS each have one coin graded in MS62. For a long time NGC did not have even one coin graded.

 

I would welcome further input about this engraved coin as I am no expert in Militaria.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a7423ea71_1893RupieGEAengravedG.ButcherMTASCRev.jpg.c81484d7362799b0b0f220b93bcb4d93.jpg

58f5a74239a91_1893RupieGEAengravedG.ButcherMTASCObv.jpg.b1dc32a4194fc211e764012dde4a0be7.jpg

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geejay50

I have had the fortune to find this 1893 Rupie amongst a pile of Tokens coming from the UK some years back. It has been counterstamped with "P.M." the letters signifying "Provincia Mozambique" . Rare coin from German East Africa that in Trade came across the border to be used as currency in Mozambique before there was a currency there. They were not fussy in Mozambique about what coins to counterstamp and examples exist from other countries.

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a74248b8c_1893RupieGEAcountermarkedPMRev.jpg.b2feb04fcc4986ea3419104f6a48a987.jpg

58f5a74243c8c_1893RupieGEAcountermarkedPMObv.jpg.c94a352e2863ed54eb673d1eb7388e5e.jpg

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EWAAN Galleries

Boer war relief of mafeking penny token

 

Hi

 

ANY COMMENTS on this TOKEN: BOER WAR RELIEF OF MAFEKING (17/05/1900) - VICTORIAN PENNY TOKEN

 

 

58f5a7425673e_-1.jpg.eb383f4f6a73dd1753b05ab901044f18.jpg

 

EWAAN Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

58f5a74251feb_.jpg.30f65e4219d90fb042f567733c8ab878.jpg

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Pierre_Henri
Hi

 

ANY COMMENTS on this TOKEN: BOER WAR RELIEF OF MAFEKING (17/05/1900) - VICTORIAN PENNY TOKEN

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4200[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4201[/ATTACH]

 

EWAAN Auction Galleries

Africa's Largest Numismatic Auctioneer

 

 

Mafeking was sieged from October 1899 to 17 May 1900. The coin in question is a brilliant unc speciman and could not have entered the town during the siege period but only ON or AFTER 17 May 1900 - the date the town was relieved.

 

Maybe the relieving troops under Colonel BT Mahon brought coins with them that day and someone engraved the Penny as a memento.

 

Who knows, it could have been done even years after that (the engraving) but my guess is that it was done shortly after the siege ended.

 

Pierre

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geejay50

Hi Pierre,

 

Its hard to know who and when did the 'Mafeking' engraving. It does have merit though and is highly collectible along with the other memorabilia bank notes etc from the seige.

 

I have a German Silver coin that I got in a bunch of Tokens engraved by a GermanPrisoner of War from Pietermaritzburg. The outbreak of WW I as with WWII saw Germans and German supporter men of military age interned at various camps in the Union. One of these camps was at Fort Napier in Pietermaritzburg. Natal was the most pro British of the four provinces and was chosen for this reason.

 

Interesting how these coins ring a bell from the past?

 

I would welcome any input

 

Geejay

 

58f5a74265165_1914GermanEngravedPOWCoinPMBObv.jpg.b322c2dcb5f163d4aae7fefd77fd9036.jpg

58f5a74271ad9_1914GermanEngravedPOWCoinPMBRev.jpg.3fba47d35b4a0bf69a7237e993dde03a.jpg

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Pierre_Henri
Hi Pierre,

 

Its hard to know who and when did the 'Mafeking' engraving. It does have merit though and is highly collectible along with the other memorabilia bank notes etc from the seige.

 

I have a German Silver coin that I got in a bunch of Tokens engraved by a GermanPrisoner of War from Pietermaritzburg. The outbreak of WW I as with WWII saw Germans and German supporter men of military age interned at various camps in the Union. One of these camps was at Fort Napier in Pietermaritzburg. Natal was the most pro British of the four provinces and was chosen for this reason.

 

Interesting how these coins ring a bell from the past?

 

I would welcome any input

 

Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4211[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4210[/ATTACH]

 

That is a super piece !

 

See also this link ...

 

http://natalia.org.za/Files/19/Natalia%20v19%20article%20p30-42%20C.pdf

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geejay50

58f5a74309a16_1619SpanishNetherlandsDucatBrabantAntwerpLogoVFdetailsNGC.jpg.dd64517865e8c5cc24e0a05f105762fa.jpg

 

Hi Folks,

 

Way back in the 1980s when we were allowed to dive on shipwrecks, we dived on a well known VOC ship off Green Point known as the "Visch" wrecked in 1740. It was interesting to note the spectrum of coins found then. The oldest coin was found by myself and was a Double Header Ducaton from the Spanish Netherlands dated 1619. The obverse shows the busts of Albertus (Albrecht) of Austria and Elisabeth of Spain overlapping see pic. It was extremely worn (26.30gm vs 32.5gm of the minted coin - 6.2gm of silver lost or 19%) but still showed the date and the busts quite well.The double header is actually extremely sought after by European collectors , far scarcer than the other Ducatons. A recent ebay auction of a repaired VF coin drew 18 bidders and 25 bids ending at $596 see link.

NGC VF 1619 Spanish Netherland Brabant Antwerp Silver Ducat | eBay

 

Of interest is that these ships often carried silver coins that were already very old then - like 120 years post mintage, as well as coins from the year before the shipwreck actually occured.Imagine if we still used ZAR coins to buy things to-day?That is the comparison.

 

This particular coin was also found on the Merrestein (1702) along with other Ducatoons from the reign of Charles II and Phillip IV.Riders from the 1600s were also found (please see Turner Shipwrecks and Salvage pg 115)

 

Another Double Header was offered on ebay recently that was recovered from a VOC shipwreck found in the 1990s off the coast of Holland called the Vliegendhart (1735). That was a coin that had undergone very similar wear to my coin and fetched $158 on auction with lots of interest. The posting done by the seller was exceptional and he deserves highest accolades.

Southern Netherlands Brabant Albrecht Isabella Ducaton 1619 VOC Shipwreck | eBay

 

Please see the pics of coins from the Visch below.

 

Note the diver's chisel mark on the reverse of the 1739 Rider

 

58f5a742af0ae_1619SpanishNetherlandsDucatBrabantAntwerpRevexWreckVisch1740.jpg.cc2247a12969f1f5e17eca316778fc16.jpg[ATTACH=CONFIG]4248[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4247[/ATTACH]

58f5a742a956c_1619SpanishNetherlandsDucatBrabantAntwerpObvexWreckVisch1740.jpg.8e12d95a521a0ee1b91b45b29d5efb43.jpg

58f5a743007c8_1739DucatoonRevexVischWreckCape_Obv.jpg.2a68c7a87b0128690bc68ba7f9ffa8a3.jpg

58f5a74305023_1739DucatoonRevexVischWreckCape.jpg.8437bb7224cf2cb5bf069a6ac7a980ab.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50
Hi Ernesto,

 

Brian Hern said in one of his Postal Catalogues a few years ago that the 1939 Southern Rhodesian 2/- is far scarcer than the more highly priced 1946 2/-. A review of the Grading figures of the two coins tends to support his observation.

 

1939 Two Shilling

NGC: 8 graded 4 XF45,3 AU55 and 1 AU58, PCGS: 1 coin graded AU53 ie 9 in total none in MS

1946 Two Shilling

NGC: 12 graded 6 in MS up to MS64, PCGS: 4 graded and 3 in MS ie 16 coins graded with 9 in MS

 

I personally have only ever been able to obtain a 1939 S Rho 2/- in XF45 , the 1946 S Rho 2/- I have in MS63 in my collection and NCS did an excellent job in getting a deposit off that coin.It is a service well worth using in certain coins.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2644[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2645[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2646[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2647[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2648[/ATTACH]

 

Hi all,

 

As a follow up to the above posting done 3 years ago, the overall grading figures of the above two coins has not changed. One graded 1946 2/- coin at PCGS has moved across to NGC (cross over). The rest of the Southern Rhodesian coins has undergone a marked increase in grading as seen in the pop reports.

 

The collectors probably earmark the well known rare coins like the above two and have them graded first giving a temporary view of relative abundance whilst the commoner coins get graded later.

 

The market has certainly woken up to the 1939 2/- and wheras I only paid $402-50 in May 2012 for the AU58 specimen- finest known (Heritage), NCCE recently sold an AU55 coin for $810 on ebay - please see link

Southern Rhodesia 1939 2 Shillings NGC AU 55 Rhodesia Nyasaland Very Scarce | eBay

 

Admittedly the Southern Rhodesian market is not big and the above price was reached with 3 bidders and 12 bids coming in the last 5 minutes. There is however a definite increase in interest in the rarer coins from this country with its unique currency situation at the moment.

 

Geejay

 

Edited by geejay50

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tlcoins

1931 Union Shilling

 

Hi All,

 

I have very much enjoyed reading through this forum and found much interesting information from very knowledgeable collectors!

I recently picked up a 1931 union shilling as shown in pictures below. The weight is correct and i believe the dimensions to be correct also. I have heard that there are many replicas of this particular coin and was wondering if anyone else had any opinions on this one as to whether or not it is genuine?

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Tim

 

HPIM0933.jpg.18d2eb35afa7c65ed72f0c0803e8e323.jpg

HPIM0932.jpg.b85f066158c0c6c9ab3dd16de63d20ec.jpg

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geejay50

Hi Tim,

 

Looks like the real coin to me. As these coins go, it looks in decent condition - well above average.

 

Geejay

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tlcoins

Thanks for you quick reply Geejay! I was thinking about trying to get it graded just to confirm it is genuine before putting it up for auction as many bidders may skeptical of its genuinity.

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geejay50

Hi Tim,

 

This coin may benefit from NCS prior to NGC grading. There may be a small deposit ?PVC that could be removed. To get this coin graded will get about a VF25 - 30 in my humble view and will mean much higher value - possibly pop2.

 

Current grading stats are as follows : PCGS one coin graded G6 - (really worn): NGC- Four coins graded G(1),VG(1),Fine(1),XF45(1).

 

You will at least have a confirmation of its authenticity if it doesnt grade.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

The beauty of Highest Quality Coins

 

Hi Folks,

 

As much as some would say, 'its OK to have AU and they are undervalued so good value for money'. Good argument and I have lots of AU coins or lower for which I did not pay much or just couldnt afford better.

 

Sometimes its just really nice to see whats at the top and the quality that has impressed the grader.

 

Thanks to all of you for your postings in 2012. We have a vital forum that improves our hobby.

 

Lets reach for the stars - they might be closer than we think !!

 

Geejay

 

58f5a744d4146_1932SRhoHalfcrownMS66Logo1.jpg.c92ea185fcf57871f5f0f4bdd46d00bd.jpg

58f5a744d9322_1932SRhoHalfcrownMS66Logo.jpg.0fd3e7ebe8e1aa2d3d62ee98552270b4.jpg

58f5a744de122_1932SRho2ShillingMS66Logo.jpg.c1736bc31cfabcc3ec8b23d1bcdd1e3c.jpg

58f5a744e2fd3_1932SRho2ShillingMS66Rev.jpg.d53398f7faa833c81ebe5458d3394e6b.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

Geejay,

 

Also following up on your observations on Southern Rhodesia coins, I generally agree with your comments. I also consider the 1939 2/ as the scarcest of those coins and maybe all business strikes from what I have encountered, though as I mentioned before, I have seen a few high grade (AU and MS) specimens offerred ungraded by the two dealers I occasionally frequent.

 

I still do not consider the population reports meaningful for this series for the same reasons I have provided before. On the financial aspects, I do not know whether $810 is too much for a 1939 2/ in AU-55. But if it is not, it certainly is NOT cheap. To arrive at this conclusion, just compare this price to those for the scarcer Union KGV 2/ or 2/6 in AU. Most of them seem to sell for less when they sell at all; that is, ignoring the absurd prices which are repeatedly asked on a venue like BoB. I doubt that this 1939 2/ is actually scarcer (or much scarcer) than most of them and the demand is definitely much less.

 

Not sure you saw my comments on that 1795 Netherlands 3 Guilder you profiled but this is as good a place as any to evalute it with these coins. Though I would much rather own that other coin than any or at least most Southern Rhodesia, I think the financial prospects for the latter are either better or much better. And I make these comments with the belief that NEITHER are particularly compelling.

 

From a financial perspective, the problem with coins such as that Dutch one is that they are almost exclusively lost in obscurity. I happen to own six of the contemporary 1790 Austrian Netherlands Insurrection issues (struck in modern day Belgium) in grades from MS-63 to MS-65. The 3 Florin which is comporable to the one you pictured I do not own but an MS-63 seems to sell for about $1750 and my guess is that an MS-65 (I recall one in the census) is probably worth in the vicinity of $5000.

 

From what I know, I consider the coins I collect somewhat more popular than yours based upon my assumptions of collector practices, but not much more. Specifically, mine are a one year issue while yours I believe minted over several or many years. I do not see that there is much demand for these coins except primarily as a "type" coin which means that the demand for any specific date/denomination combination is almost certainly likely to be low or very low. The only reason I can see this as not being true is if this period is more significant to either Dutch collectors or a decent number in South Africa such as yourself. However, I do not see any reason in the 430+ years of Dutch coinage why these coins would be preferred over others such as the "Horse Rider" 3 Guilder which is much better known by most collectors.

 

Like the 1790 Insurrection issues, I also doubt that most of these coins are really that scarce except in a narrow sense. I used to think that mine were "rare" in high grade but then I saw them on Jean Elsien auctions fairly regularly when I looked. All were raw but I bought two from him that later graded MS-63 and MS-64. This especially applies to big coins such as the 3 Florin (and presumably 3 Guilder) because this coin is almost certainly the most common of the eight from my series. I have had many opportunities to buy it in MS and declined to do so. I do not know how many of this coin actually exist in (the arbitrary grade of) MS, but it's not improbable that there are as many as 100 or maybe even more out of the original reported mintage of 44,000. The bronze coins are much scarcer but less popular because of their size and metal content.

 

From what I can tell, it is apparently evident that most European coins from this period, and in some instances even earlier, are not scarce at all even in "better" grades, though I am not in the position to comment on a specific coin or coins in specific grades or the grade distribution. But I can tell you that I see "high quality" coins from this period all the time when I check. I have never bothered to check the Netherlands but it definitely applies to British, French, German, Austrian, Spanish and Swiss coins at least in a generic sense.

 

The other thing to consider when buying graded coins like these is where the demand comes from. In my opinion, MOST of it comes from buyers in the United States, regardless of the coin's origin. The pitifully low census numbers almost certainly support that there is virtually zero preference for graded coins locally (regardless of what country we are talking about).

 

What this likely means from a financial sense is that coins like the one you showed or a few I own will primarily be sold to a US collector at a premium price. I do not see that many (virtually none in my opinion) Belgium, Dutch or Austrian states collectors outside the United States are going to pay a substantial premium for your or my MS-65 over one in a slightly lower grade (like the MS-63 or MS-64 I also own) because frankly, the American practice of doing so is plain irrational since there is nothing significantly better about these coins most of the time.

 

The conclusion I draw from this brief analysis is that both these series I profiled (yours and mine) are probably "dead money" at least in terms of relative financial performance. The same applies to most other coins like them. If anyone likes coins such as these, go ahead and buy them but I absolutely would not do so under the illusion that there is anything compelling about them from a financial point of view. I spent slightly more than $2000 for the seven I bought (yes, including one duplicate) and have no regrets that I did so. The Southern Rhodesia I would rate as somewhat better, despite their relative numismatic merits, because they are more recent and therefore, likely within the attention span of more collectors and "investors".

Edited by jwither

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Rare NotesCoins

New Finest Known at NGC

 

Hi all.

 

 

Just an update on the newest coin that I graded at NGC. Its a 1931 MS65 BN Penny. Its one of the most difficult pennies to get in Minstate. This one is Finest Known and is also Pop1 :laugh:

Regards Rare NotesCoins

 

 

. 58f5a745caffe_b9dba882-ff61-402c-9707-eef41e1f022b_rev2.jpg.7386e04b4903c4e1eaa5aab787308da5.jpg

58f5a745d1834_b9dba882-ff61-402c-9707-eef41e1f022b_obv1.jpg.a2402b289b623741ff3c6713451996b1.jpg

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geejay50

Nice coin above and thanks for sharing it with us 'Rare Notes and Coins'

 

I have one that is of interest to SA collectors and abroad.

 

As most of you are aware, the Scheepjesgulden was the first coin made by the Dutch for use at the Cape and in the East. That applies especially to the fractions which according to Engelbrecht were released by the British after 1805 to relieve the shortage of small currency when they took over from the Dutch.

 

The 1802 One Quarter Ships Gulden has one slot in the NGC pop report census and on the type is quoted as S - 492, the S refers to the Catalogue by Scholten.

 

NGC does not recognise all the varieties of Ship's Guldens and fractions thereof in their census breakdown so we have differing coins within the same population slot with the same overall S number. We therefore have no idea as to relative scarcity of the subtypes and I approached NGC with this problem a few years ago without response. It is just too difficult for them to redo the pop report I assume.

What I have realised recently at an ebay auction without having a copy of Scholten is that there are at least three subtypes of Quarter Guldens viz a), b) and c).

Herewith Pics of the Quarter Guldens, the raw one is S-492 c) definitely and the graded one I am not sure about. Am trying to get a copy of Scholten.

 

Please note the different positions of the big mast in relation to the lettering on the obverse. In the graded coin, directly under the "T" and in the raw coin, midway between the "A" and the "T".

 

58f5a74623274_1802NEIBatavRepOneQuarterGMS65Rev.jpg.6424358f7865926ff96148ea4ab82948.jpg

 

58f5a7462e89d_1802NEIBatavRepOneQuarterGRev.jpg.ff213d876b0e6a4e1f6cd4a873366ae0.jpg

 

We have an area of SA Numismatics which presents a challenge , every other coin has been well categorised except these.

 

Inputs will be welcome.

 

Geejay

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58f5a74628d8e_1802NEIBatavRepOneQuarterGObv.jpg.0cc790fac5f8807e9a196c4cf8d95edb.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Thanks to Pierre Nortje , he found me a second hand Scholten somewhere on ebay on a buy now. He always has positive to give !!

 

I was outbid on that book on a Stephen Album Auction at $240 .... second hand cost me 35 Euro inclusive !!!

 

Will post more info on the Ships Gulden story when I have the book

 

See you later !

 

Geejay

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geejay50

VOC stamped Copper Cob Coins - so called "Dumps"

 

The shortage of small currency was a problem in the late 1700s in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) which was ruled by the VOC for the Dutch from 1658 to 1798 before taken over by the British. it was also a problem at the Cape as we well know but there were no Cob type coins in circulation there.

 

The VOC allowed four mints to open with the main one at Columbo (1783 to 1794) and lesser mints at Trincomalee,Jaffna and Galle.Copper bars were cut of a certain weight (4 Duits to 1 Stuiver or 13.76gm) and stamped with the VOC emblem along with a C above for Columbo, T for Trincomalee, G for Galle and a different inscription for Jaffna.

 

I have recently acquired two specimens from Holland through ebay - both one stuivers from Columbo - they are delightfully chunky and rough with typically partial inscriptions (nice change after the boringly perfect modern coins) and chanced upon another one on bidorbuy from Trincomalee Mint .Please see the following link - there is a lot of info on further links on these so called "Dump" coins and the overall history of the Dutch VOC involvement in Sri Lanka for those interested 1788 Ceylon VOC 1 Stuiver Copper COB VOC Dump Stuivers Colombo Mint | eBay

 

Two Stuivers and 4 and three Quarter Stuivers were made in the same way with the latter being called "Bonke" these last named are really scarce and fetch high prices. An photo of a Bonk (also called a Half Larin) is shown along with two "Dumps" on page 17 of Engelbrecht. I think a Bonk was offered at Heritage in the last year or so but cannot remember the details.

 

Dumps were often forged and are offered to Tourists who arrive at Galle so beware.

 

Some pics of these rather rough Dump coins are shown. They are up to 7 mm thick , weigh nearly half an ounce and have a Scholten reference 1299b, Krause#26

 

Geejay

 

58f5a746a08b4_1785CopperDumpStuiverObv.jpg.bd3336bf12e2f42e713e916640ac177d.jpg

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58f5a7469b977_1788CopperDumpVOCStuiverRev.jpg.40a4754bc2ac03bb9331e6fa2c4d07f4.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

What I have realised recently at an ebay auction without having a copy of Scholten is that there are at least three subtypes of Quarter Guldens viz a), b) and c).

Herewith Pics of the Quarter Guldens, the raw one is S-492 c) definitely and the graded one I am not sure about. Am trying to get a copy of Scholten.

 

Please note the different positions of the big mast in relation to the lettering on the obverse. In the graded coin, directly under the "T" and in the raw coin, midway between the "A" and the "T".

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4424[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4425[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4426[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4427[/ATTACH]

 

 

As Promised with a lovely copy of Scholten in my hand,(cant believe it was published in 1953- excellent condition)

 

The graded Quarter Gulden is Scholten 492 a) Main mast under 'T'

 

The raw coin falls under Scholten 492 c) Main mast under 'TA'

 

Other varieties are: 492 b) similar to a) but value placed lower on reverse

492 d) main mast under 'A'

492 e) main mast under the left leg of 'A'

492 f) main mast under 'AT'

 

There are a large number of varieties of the other members of the Scheepjesgulden issue and fractions - I will give further details on request.

 

To summarize

1 Guilder S488- 5 varieties a to e,

Half Guilder S490- 3 varieties a to c,

Quarter Guilder S492- 6 varieties a to f,

Eighth Guilder S494- 4 varieties a to d,

Eighth Guilder S496- 3 varieties a to c,

Sixteenth Guilder S495- 4 varieties a to d

Sixteenth Guilder S497- 3 varieties a to c with c being very Rare and error struck BTATVORVM

 

There are also Gold Proofs in 1 Guilder 489 , one Half Guilder 491, one Quarter Guilder 493 - these are all extremely rare

 

The Dutch Overseas Coinage from 1601 to 1948 is a fascinating field and includes coinage such as the very rare and expensive VOC Ducatons , Bonke, Duits, Ducats and Guilders to name but a few. They do relate in small part to South African Numismatic History and I would urge collectors to consider them as part of any complete South African Collection.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50
Thanks for you quick reply Geejay! I was thinking about trying to get it graded just to confirm it is genuine before putting it up for auction as many bidders may skeptical of its genuinity.

 

Hi Tim,

 

Did the coin grade ? I would be interested as will other collectors.

 

Geejay

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