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geejay50

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Cold Sea

Second Issues

 

I'm of the opinion that the second issue in most series seems to be the scarcer type of the particular series, mintage figures aside. I'm not sure that the census figures always reflects this.

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

The coinage of the evolving South Africa from 1652 to present had over a century and a half of Dutch input up to 1806 ending with the British Occupation of the Cape and even then Major General David Baird for the British (1806) put into circulation the Scheepjes Gulden Fraction 1/4 and 1/8 Guldens that De Mist for the Dutch Batavian Republic had stored for use at the Cape (Engelbrecht pg28).

The Dutch era is therefore Highly collectible and is mentioned in Engelbrecht, Becklake and Rosenthal with pics of the various coins minted in Holland for use in the colonies including the Cape.

 

Looking at the main focus of present day Numismatics, one would be forgiven for thinking that the Coins pertinent to South Africa started in 1874. It is however also very obvious that coins with the VOC monogram are very hard to find in gradeable condition especially in Silver and Gold. Their scarcity makes most collectors give up trying and ignore that era.

 

The Ducatoon with a VOC monogram is a scarce sought after coin , certainly much scarcer than the one without the monogram. Archives at Heritage Lot 25153 Jan 2011, an NGC MS63 1728 VOC silver Ducatoon was sold for $10,925 and more recently three ungradeable coins were sold two for almost $1000 each and one cleaned coin for $2500. The buyers are unknown but one can only surmise that with the extent of the VOC at the time, they could be from USA , Australia , South Africa or Indonesia.A Proof 63 Gold 1728 VOC Ducatoon KM71A was sold in May 30 2008 Lot 52416 for $126,500 with 8 bidders and 9285 Page viewers (R1,012Million)

 

A friend of mine sent me such a Ducatoon for grading and looking at it, it was 1 gram light and was too nicely worn to be genuine see pics.

It is a fake and there was the same fake on offer recently from the Philipines on ebay (item no 320926011314) - removed after I contacted the seller.

 

The interesting thing about this coin is the part of the inscription that says in in Latin "IN USUM....ORIENT" which means 'For use in the East'. Have any of you chanced upon such a coin? Please let us know.

 

 

Geejay

 

 

 

58f5a73995ace_1739VOCDucatoonForgeryRev.jpg.15ed436b25877fea8b1d9c1a4adfcb8a.jpg

 

 

58f5a739900ac_1739VOCDucatoonForgeryObv.jpg.631d52405955cad4fac86bbb26405b5f.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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zarmaniac

Not on the current topic. just wanted to show an interesting item I bought recently.

1892 error strike shilling.

 

shil.jpg.f8f087d09cdf1b35dbc142e406f6354b.jpg

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geejay50

Hi ZARmaniac,

 

Thats an awesome error strike of an 1892 Shilling and really I havent seen such an error. In general error strikes of ZAR are rare and the minting must have been accurate on the whole. I can only recall one or two others, a slabbed Threepence with a stated misstrike I think graded AU58 and an 1894 penny.

 

To add to VOC rarities here is a VOC 3 Gulden graded AU58. These were definitely used at the Cape and were valued at more than the straight Dutch 3 Gulden there (Engelbrecht).

 

Geejay

 

58f5a73a20f1d_1786NEIUtrecht3GuldenPCGSAU58Rev.jpg.3df41e4ce493b52a7f2e0516cdebfab4.jpg

 

58f5a73a16b2b_1786NEIUtrecht3GuldenPCGSAU58Logo.jpg.81f63f13480dd9436c473743617c8bee.jpg

58f5a73a1bdb7_1786NEIUtrecht3GuldenPCGSAU58Obv.jpg.ace12d9d9c4b1c10196dfeb1cbfa900b.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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zarmaniac

Hi Georg

I have a 1892 and 1894 penny as well, photo of the 1894 penny below.

I have only seen a handfull of error ZAR coins. The error graded 1894 3d on Ebay is expensive,think $2000.

Regards

Werner

94_miss2.jpg.505ffc439218241f1e5371fc72af87b4.jpg

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geejay50

Hi Werner,

 

Thanks for the valued input. You have jogged my memory. I remember that it was an NGC AU58 1894 3d with a misstrike designation - the price was around $2K - perhaps cheap for a probably unique ZAR coin . That seems to be unique for that issue although misstrikes do not enjoy a separate category on the Pop Report except maybe the single nine. The 1894 Penny looks brilliant and there must be very few of those around if any! I have never seen an 1892 misstrike Penny.

 

I cannot get NGC to give a separate category on their Pop report to the 1938 6d "No K.G" coin eventhough they have to the 1959 3d "No K.G." . So I have sent the coin to PCGS for a cross over with the proviso that they give the coin its own separate category in their pop report. The next few weeks will tell if they will or not.PCGS is bigger than NGC worldwide actually and is listed under the NASDAC composite index. South African Collectors may not favour them on the whole though for reasons that are not clear to me.

 

I am also holding thumbs for a 1938 1/- "No dot after date" at NGC.

 

My contact at NGC tells me that a new pop report category is decided on by the coin grader there. This is arbitrary but there you have it.

 

Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3512[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3513[/ATTACH]

58f5a73a2beed_19386dNoKGMGLogo1.jpg.65aa83d010cb765777e5c2f81a8d2d65.jpg

58f5a73a309f1_19386dNoKGMS61Rev1.jpg.0e09710a3c78d1ac7e3eb8620d40b4b6.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Pierre_Henri

I cannot get NGC to give a separate category on their Pop report to the 1938 6d "No K.G" coin eventhough they have to the 1959 3d "No K.G." Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3512[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3513[/ATTACH]

 

George, Is ek dan nou blind? Die 1938 6d "No KG" is dan reeds in 'n NGC slab ?

 

Soos gewoonlik lees ek seker weer verkeerd, maar help tog verduidelik!

 

Pierre

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Cold Sea

Well spotted Pierre. I am also wondering why the grade refers to 6p, when the coin itself is a 6d. Pence or Pee normally refer to plural pennies in a conversation, but the grade should reflect what's on the coin.

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jwither

NGC lists the 1959 3D in the census because it is in Hern and maybe in Krause (I cannot remember). A coin such as the 1938 6D is not and therefore not a "recognized" variety. I specifically covered this subject in a prior post here in "Scarce Coin Watch".

 

On the misstrikes, NGC does not consider the 1898 "Single 9" as a misstrike and I do not think of it as one either. To my knowledge, it was intentionally minted as it is, only that the location of the "9" did not satisfy the person who struck it.

 

On the others mentioned here, I do not know why anyone should think that NGC should either single them out for special mention or that they should be worth any substantial premium. The 18941D image in the other post is not particularly noticeable as an "error" coin and it is not a recognized die variety either to my knowledge. And I also think $2,000 for that 1894 3D was excessive.

 

In the United States, there are collectors of error coins and they have a club called CONECA. Some of these coins are worth a lot of money but by "a lot" maybe four or at most, five figures. (Most I believe sell for less than $1,000 USD.) None of these coins, even for the same issue, are worth the same as the most expensive regular strikes.

 

The reasons for these are twofold. First, the collector base for errors is limited and for a particular specialty within errors such as in the examples used here, even more so. Second, I presume (since I do not actually know) that all errors are rare and if not, scarce. So there is nothing particularly significant about most of them. The errors collected in the US known to me are those where the coin blank was fed into the coin press incorrectly. There may be others but those are the ones I know.

 

This 1894 1D in the image looks more like what would exist with a die variety to me than an error. But in any event, I see no reason to pay a substantial premium for it because there is no error collecting of SA coins as a specialty to my knowledge. They are only collected haphazardly.

 

Lastly, NGC does not include US errors in the census though it does designate them as such on the label. There is no reason for them to do so because such a coin is not required to complete any set. Based upon what collectors generally define as a complete set, none of these coins are necessary to complete anything.

 

So to sum it up, I would say these coins are interesting as a novelty, but not particularly otherwise.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
NGC lists the 1959 3D in the census because it is in Hern and maybe in Krause (I cannot remember). A coin such as the 1938 6D is not and therefore not a "recognized" variety.

 

Thanks Ernesto,

 

The 1959 3d "No K.G." variety is the only such variety mentioned in Krause and this is what NGC uses it seems for their Pop report - Hern does not mention it in his Catalogue.

 

So this is probably the reason why we cannot get the 1938 6d "No K.G." into a separate category.Perhaps PCGS will see things differently?

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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zarmaniac

Georg, the 1892 miss struck penny is unfortunetely very worn, which means it must have been in circulation. See pic below.

 

Ernesto, these are mint errors, off centre struck/misstruck, not die varieties, and NGC grades them as broad struck.

Look at the 1892 1/ in my earlier post.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280845382797?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

58f5a73a35237_92err.jpg.562f7c3a5cabef69a3ffaf456550403c.jpg

Edited by zarmaniac

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Patricia_Gert

Hi Georg,

 

You can actually find this "no kg" coin in the pop report:

If you go to the "Verify NGC Certification" page and type in the serial number, in the "coin information" block it will show:

[TABLE=class: addInfo]

[TR]

[TD=class: label]"Total Graded at 61: [/TD]

[TD=class: info]1" [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

If you then click on "NGC Cencus" it will show this:

 

58f5a73a3a842_19386dnokg.jpg.12dd5985857845e3765169764db9c380.jpg

 

Here is another example of an 1941 "no KG" threepence:

 

58f5a73a3f8dd_19413dnokg.jpg.e8d0fb195440af89350e7ba9bec9455c.jpg

 

Kind regards

Gert

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Patricia_Gert
I am also wondering why the grade refers to 6p, when the coin itself is a 6d. Pence or Pee normally refer to plural pennies in a conversation, but the grade should reflect what's on the coin.

 

Very interesting question! The abbreviation "d" for penny comes from the latin word denarius (an old roman coin). The proper abbreviation for the Sixpence should be 6d and not 6p like NGC lists it on the coin (and in their census).

 

Kind regards

Gert

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geejay50
Hi Georg,

 

You can actually find this "no kg" coin in the pop report:

If you go to the "Verify NGC Certification" page and type in the serial number, in the "coin information" block it will show:

[TABLE=class: addInfo]

[TR]

[TD=class: label]"Total Graded at 61:

[/TD]

[TD=class: info]1"

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

If you then click on "NGC Cencus" it will show this:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3520[/ATTACH]

 

Here is another example of an 1941 "no KG" threepence:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3521[/ATTACH]

 

Kind regards

Gert

 

Hi Gert,

 

Well done - you beat me to it. I was about to tell everybody that NGC had put it on their pop report where Medals occur and I was actually looking for a Paul Kruger Medal MS63 that Ahmed is selling only to find my sixpence "No K.G." nearby so I didnt follow your route but got there anyway. I must tell you guys that I made and received a few phone calls to NGC to motivate for it.

 

Good news for the 1941 "No K.G." Threepence too and the owner of the 1938 1/- No star after date can also look forward to a listing on the Census albeit at the end.

 

So NGC is recognizing some Union varieties after all, moving ahead of Krause.I think this is really a feather in their cap and deserves cheers from SA collectors !!! GIVE THEM A BELLS !!!

 

Geejay

 

 

 

Edited by geejay50

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Patricia_Gert

Hi Georg,

 

I am not sure since when these varieties have been included in the census but I first noticed it with the 1941 3d "no KG" which I send to NGC. The coin was graded on 11 May 2012 and was on the census a day or so later.

 

But yes, GIVE THEM A BELLS!! :smile:

 

Gert

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jwither
Georg, the 1892 miss struck penny is unfortunetely very worn, which means it must have been in circulation. See pic below.

 

Ernesto, these are mint errors, off centre struck/misstruck, not die varieties, and NGC grades them as broad struck.

Look at the 1892 1/ in my earlier post.

NGC Mint Error AU58,South Africa 1894 3 Pence | eBay

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3519[/ATTACH]

 

I must not have looked ta the image carefully enough before because I see the difference more clearly now. But my opinion of them is essentially the same for the reasons I gave.

Edited by jwither

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jwither
NGC lists the 1959 3D in the census because it is in Hern and maybe in Krause (I cannot remember). A coin such as the 1938 6D is not and therefore not a "recognized" variety.

 

Thanks Ernesto,

 

The 1959 3d "No K.G." variety is the only such variety mentioned in Krause and this is what NGC uses it seems for their Pop report - Hern does not mention it in his Catalogue.

 

So this is probably the reason why we cannot get the 1938 6d "No K.G." into a separate category.Perhaps PCGS will see things differently?

 

Geejay

 

I agree with your prior comment that NGC graders have the discretion to add or exclude a particular die variety to the census. What I was describing is the common practice.

 

If anyone has ever looked at the US census in any detail, you will see many, many die varieties listed. But the largest number in any series are for the most popular ones which are early half cents and large cents plus early half dollars.

 

The census for die varieties is primarily based upon collecting practices. Today in SA and most other countries, there are very few die variety collectors. First, collectors can only attempt to collect what they know about and since there is little research into this field generally, they do not even know what is available. The second reason is because many of the regular dates are scarce or rare, so it is pointless to bother with them when you cannot even collect the coins as a generic date. Third, it is mostly specialists who can be bothered to collect die varieties which mostly do not look that different from the "regular" issue.

 

The latter two reasons are why I believe collecting of Union varieties is going to go nowhere. This is no different than with most of the other coins I collect. The first reason is presumably why I have never heard of a ZAR die variety collector either since presumably they exist. Given the much bigger popularity of this series, it would make far more sense for this to be an active field.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

I have phoned PCGS and cancelled the asked for cross over of the NGC MS61 1938 "No K.G." 6d and they have agreed. It is better to concentrate such rarities within one International Company for ease of determining stats . NGC seems at the moment to be more commonly accepted within South Africa.

 

The grading of these varieties of Union coins even if not actually big money issues will definitely add interest to a growing market.

 

Geejay

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

There is an MS62 "No K.G." 1939 threepence as well on page 18 of the NGC Census.

 

Geejay

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geejay50
Hi ZARmaniac,

 

Thats an awesome error strike of an 1892 Shilling and really I havent seen such an error. In general error strikes of ZAR are rare and the minting must have been accurate on the whole. I can only recall one or two others, a slabbed Threepence with a stated misstrike I think graded AU58 and an 1894 penny.

 

To add to VOC rarities here is a VOC 3 Gulden graded AU58. These were definitely used at the Cape and were valued at more than the straight Dutch 3 Gulden there (Engelbrecht).

 

Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3508[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3509[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3510[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

To Complement what has been said above here are pics of a 1795 Dutch West Friesland 3 Gulden graded MS65 - its the finest known of the only two graded by NGC (PCGS Nil graded)

 

The Planchet is irregular , hence the variable imprint of the legend. Specs 31.82gm 0.92 Silver 0.9412oz .

 

MS65 is the highest grade that any 3 Gulden from any Province has achieved at NGC.The big size,roughness of the strike and the toning adds tremendous eye appeal to these coins - very different to the monotony of the metals in modern coins.

 

1795 marks the last year of issue of the 3 Gulden by Holland which according to Krause ended in 1794 so there is no 1795 mentioned in that Catalogue under 3 Gulden.

 

This was the time of the French Revolution when Holland was invaded by the French towards the end of 1794 and in May 1795 the Patriot Party for the Dutch came to terms with the French promising to join them in the war against the British. This led to the Prince of Orange fleeing to exile in Britain and who in turn asked the British to send a fleet to protect the Cape against the French until such time as he could regain power (Geen - The making of the Union of South Africa).

 

Geejay

 

58f5a73a68d43_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Rev.jpg.de06b062b02f2c7ee774678a27ae00b5.jpg

58f5a73a57880_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Logo.jpg.6de83d3da23c3459fda1d433b6214f78.jpg

58f5a73a633f6_17953GuldenNetherlandsW.FrieslandMS65Obv.jpg.444433a138f310d7399eb0df492ccbc0.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

I was offered an NGC 1902 Veldpond by SCoin Shop for R600,000 yesterday.

 

Any thoughts on this price and any precedents in sales?

 

Geejay

 

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jwither
Hi All,

 

I was offered an NGC 1902 Veldpond by SCoin Shop for R600,000 yesterday.

 

Any thoughts on this price and any precedents in sales?

 

Geejay

 

 

What grade is this coin in? The Heritage 1/3/2012 sale had an MS-63 go for about $28,000 and an MS-64 for about $48,000. R600,000 is around $75,000 USD. Going by the most recent sales on Heritage, unless there are other COMPETITIVE sales SUBSEQUENTLY or this coin is in a grade like MS-66, it is overpriced. I also consider the price Pierre received for his XF-45 to be a great deal for him and an absolutely awful one for the buyer. Despite the Veld Pond's appeal it is not anywhere near scarce enough to be worth R168,000 in a grade like that.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

Sorry its an AU55 NGC Veldpond and at R600,000 grossly overpriced in my view too as I also have those Heritage Sales that you accessed.

 

 

It may be fine to sell a 1 oz Mandela Gold medal for R40,000 without such International Sales prices to compare because that market doesnt know better but you cannot do that with a Veldpond.

 

All buyers beware and I have the email from Scoin shop if you want me to forward it.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

Hi All,

 

The days of SCoin Shop and others asking exorbitant prices for coins that have International grading and sales trails are over. The advent of the Internet and instant price comparisons are making the rare coin market far more attractive as a real investment.

 

The Mandela derivative bubble has a limited local extent (no real International credentials) and must be seen as a short term price chase for cynical speculators see also Personal Finance (First Quarter 2012).

 

Only verifiably rare coins will have enduring value in the long run and a tough market will demand price precedents and impartial grade survival stats in the future - no one on one pressure selling without collateral will be acceptable.

 

Geejay

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