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geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

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geejay50

Thanks Mike and Cold Sea,

 

You highlight the Unity issue between the Free State and the Transvaal which was a long cherished ideal of President Steyn. The issue was rather one of trying to find common ground between factions in the Boer community after the devastating effects of the scorched earth policy of Roberts and Kitchener in the Boer War. It was extremely difficult for some of the Boer community to forgive members who had sided with the British forces and were regarded as traitors (the brother of Christian De Wet for example) . There was real anger and "broeder twis" with a flare up with the outbreak of the First World War.

 

Throughout this time, President Steyn from the Fee State who fought to the end in the Boer War eventhough so weak (?from Guillain Barre Syndrome) that they had to tie him to his horse, served as a conciliator between the leaders of the fractured Boer Volk from his sick bed in his Farm House in the Free State.He was a bridge betweeen people like DeWet, Smuts, Botha, Hertzog and De La Rey and played a difficult credible father figure role during a really tough time of rebuilding.

 

 

The Free Staters always felt and rightly so that they had received the worst of the British scorched earth treatment during the Boer War - almost every Free State Farm had been burnt and lifestock destroyed. The Transvaal was perceived as having got off with less destruction than they did.

 

Even to-day there are echoes of this in things as trivial as the Rugby games between the Cheetahs and the Bulls. A war lives on in the minds of people long after the peace is signed. Even a small thing as a coin inscription can bring out a littany of issues from a seemingly long forgotten era.

 

This richness is never achieved by modern coins, medallions etc made mainly to keep big institutions in profit.They seem shallow and cheap by comparison.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

A very early Dutch Trade Ducat from 1597

 

I have had this coin in my collection for a number of years and purchased it (raw) mainly because of my own Dutch ancestors.

 

It achieved AU50 in grading by NGC although I cannot find it in their pop report on the Netherlands.

 

1597 was just before the VOC was established after the amalgamation of a number of smaller Dutch Companies and is really early at the begining of the lucrative Spice Trade.

 

Dutch Trade Ducats were minted up until the early 1920s

 

Their quality improved considerably over nearly 4 centuries from this hammered version although the design and inscription (Abbreviated Latin) remained exactly the same.

 

Did they circulate in the Cape ? I am not sure. I have it on hearsay that a Ducat was found on the shore by the Lighthousekeeper at Jutten Island where the Meerenstein met her end in 1702. It does seem that the VOC used mainly silver and copper coins in their trade with the world although the fine print of Engelbrecht Money in South Africa on page 13 says of Dutch and VOC coins at the Cape - "Ducats were the most important gold pieces among the old Dutch coins . A ducat equalled 5 1/2 Guilders (Silver). From 1847 to 1860 , the ducat was minted on order of fine Gold." I think he may have made an error in the dates of issue although his statement is correct.

 

Ducats are not that scarce and are found in graded form on Pop reports of the Netherlands during the centuries starting in 1618 . This coin is of earlier origin however , was crudely struck and must have been issued just after the 80 years war with Spain.

 

This David and Goliath survival of the Dutch at the hands of Phillip II of Spain and his Duke of Alba in the 1500s may not be irrelevant to South Africa's History. Allistair Sparks in his "Mind of South Africa" traces the Dutch Reformed Church theological concept of the earlier Dutch as being the Chosen people of the almighty back to this time. A philosophy that was brought to the Cape by van Riebeeck and spread since.

 

What do you think?

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a7309482f_1597DucatHollandAU50Rev1.jpg.9309147cf55d7a737654f9efbaa2da17.jpg

 

 

58f5a7305306a_1597DucatHollandAU50Logo.jpg.413ec489e09b240dc2e782291cd86ce9.jpg

58f5a730580ed_1597DucatHollandAU50Obv.jpg.2195b12c27fbd4545b5e670726f3588d.jpg

58f5a7308ee4b_1597DucatHollandObvline12189665.jpg.e0338ea49b16e568209a346014a4965a.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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southernaurora

Mule Penny Mintage

 

Hi Georg,

 

The mule penny you had graded by NGC looks like a wonderful coin. Do you recall what grade it achieved?

 

I doubt the mintage of this piece was only 5, i suspect it was much higher. The reason I state this is I've seen a couple for sale over the years (cant recall auction houses but Mike is correct re kunker being one and I think DNW sold one). I have two of these patterns graded by PCGS.

 

Cheers

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jwither
Ducats are not that scarce and are found in graded form on Pop reports of the Netherlands during the centuries starting in 1618 . This coin is of earlier origin however , was crudely struck and must have been issued just after the 80 years war with Spain.

 

 

 

I do not follow these coins but I do pay attention to the contemporary Spanish Escudos series. I am interested in all of the coins dated from about the 1600's except for the larger "eights". Spain issued both cob or hammered equivalent coins for this series first and then on coin blanks. From what I can tell, the newer coins are much scarcer than the earlier ones, for whatever reason. I see the cob type coinage relatively frequently but the latter, only a few times. I cannot speak to specific dates or mints, but I believe my comments are accurate generically.

 

As for the census, I also own coins that are not included, quite a few. I believe there are many such coins proportionately though the absolute numbers are not meaningful for most countries.

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Mike Klee

Hi "Southernaurora",

 

Drat....and here I was thinking that I had something really rare! If you have 2, I have one and there were supposedly only 5 minted, it does seem unlikely that there only another 2 out there.

 

Actually, you do raise a valid point re a question mark over the true mintage figures of all of these patterns. For patterns with mintages of only 5, 10, 50 or 100 it seems that certain of these appear on auction time after time after time - which is indicative of either such patterns being bought and then resold repeatedly (with very few owners keeping them squirreled away) or that there is a much larger population of such patterns out there.

 

Plus, I suspect that the Chinese have "expanded" these populations in recent times.

 

I wonder where the figures for the original mintages came from?

 

Mike K

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southernaurora

Mule Pattern

 

Hi Mike,

 

The mintage is unlikely to be 5 but i do think its much lower than the other patterns as they are seldom seen on auction. I suspect a mintage of perhaps 20 would be a better representation. Still a scarce coin and well worth keeping in your collection.

 

I've found it strange how some of the patterns tend to always come up on auction and others are difficult to find. As an example the Cape Pattern pennies in copper with Queen Victoria tend to be easy to find but the "one penny" variety is a lot more difficult. I also think the ZAR Penny is likely to have the mintage of 50 while the two pence a mintage of 100 as they seem a lot more common. In summary, i wonder where the mintage or how the mintage figures have been derived.

 

I don't think the Chinese have added to the population just think that most of these pieces have been "kept" and i'm not sure how many people collect the full series rather than nuying just one or two.

 

Regards

Ian

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Mike Klee

Hi Ian,

 

It could also be that patterns attract a very small percentage oF numismatists? Speaking from experience, at few years back I was bidding on patterns which cost an absolute fortune - perhaps a bad investment, as the prices have dropped to a half/ one third what they were going for and what I was paying - and I noticed that in reality there were only 4 or 5 bidders involved. One was from Ireland.

 

I have now stopped buying patterns, mainly due to the same economic reasons which have affected most other collectors.

 

Do I regret what I have bought? No. To me, patterns are the peacocks of South African coins - accurately described by others as "salesman pieces" and purposefully designed to solicit business. Each of our patterns is a true work of art and a wonderful thing to be the temporary custodian of.

 

Due to the limited numbers minted of each pattern, they rightly fall into the "scarce coin" category.

 

Can any other members please provide information as to how the literature arrives at the quantities of each pattern minted?

 

Mike K

Edited by Mike Klee

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jwither

I have commented on the scarcity of these "patterns" before and on them generally. I do not know whether others agree with my comments or not. I doubt it but I am going to recap them again anyway.

 

On the mintages, I am going to guess that unless there is specific evidence to indicate otherwise, that these estimates are exactly that, an estimate. Maybe not as inaccurate as I believe some of the estimates of surviving speciments are for other coins profiled here (like that 1941 Sarawak cent),but to my knowldege, but unless someone can come up with the source documents (which also may not be accurate), there is no way to know.

 

On their scarcity, some are scarce but most are not. Some like the OFS plated in nickel with an estimate of 12 are actually scarce coins. A "pattern" with an original mintage of 50 or 100, not really. These numbers are about the same as the typical US pattern. I do not know what the survival rates are on these issues because I have not tracked individual variaties, but since I expect few people collect all of those listed in Hern or Krause, it does not matter that much from a financial standpoint anyway.

 

On the prices, I too have noticed that they have appeared to decrease a lot from what I believe were their prior peaks a few years ago. In my opinion because of their availability, i do not believe they ever deserved the prices they had. They seem to sell for between $1500 and $2000 most of the time now and I believe that is more than enough. They would have to fall substantially from these levels before I would buy them for "investment" purposes.

 

This is (once again) the reason coins should be bought first for collectible purposes and secondarily if at all, for "investment". I remember when these pennies sold for $500 and less before 2005 and others here may remember when they sold for much less before that. Absent a big surge in ZAR prices generally, I do not expect these issues to regain their prior peaks for quite a while.

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geejay50

 

This is (once again) the reason coins should be bought first for collectible purposes and secondarily if at all, for "investment". I remember when these pennies sold for $500 and less before 2005 and others here may remember when they sold for much less before that. Absent a big surge in ZAR prices generally, I do not expect these issues to regain their prior peaks for quite a while.

 

Hi Ernesto,

 

Agree with what you said above and that applies to all coins everywhere though. People who collect Patterns must do so for their beauty in the first place and not as a vehicle for profit. That they are scarce is commonly agreed but something is only scarce when more people want it than are available whatever the numbers are. The irresistable beauty of ZAR Patterns along with unique colouration per coin and their overall scarcity, History are enough reasons to hang on to them if you can. That is why I keep mine.Whether price goes up or down, in the end I believe there are enough collectors in the world to keep their value.They have something that no modern coin made from Nickel or Gold can give in terms of beauty.

 

My 10 cents worth

 

Geejay.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2961[/ATTACH]

58f5a730d51b5_1890Pf65GQTPatternObv2.jpg.d90edb1c7919e5ad477e40832e328d03.jpg

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craigg123
Hi Ernesto,

 

Agree with what you said above and that applies to all coins everywhere though. People who collect Patterns must do so for their beauty in the first place and not as a vehicle for profit. That they are scarce is commonly agreed but something is only scarce when more people want it than are available whatever the numbers are. The irresistable beauty of ZAR Patterns along with unique colouration per coin and their overall scarcity, History are enough reasons to hang on to them if you can. That is why I keep mine.Whether price goes up or down, in the end I believe there are enough collectors in the world to keep their value.They have something that no modern coin made from Nickel or Gold can give in terms of beauty.

 

My 10 cents worth

 

Geejay.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2961[/ATTACH]

 

Truly Stunning coin Geejay!!!!!!!

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jwither

Geejay,

 

Agree with you, everyone should buy what they like. I believe the primary reason these are as widely collected as they are is because those who collect ZAR (which is relatively many) also want them. And some others like them because they are definitely attractive.

 

Not sure I would call these ZAR patterns though. The 1874, I would say sort of. The ones with the Queen Victoria "Young Head" portrait, no. Personally, I like the Cape of Good Hope and OFS issues the best from this group.

 

From the others which few people own, I prefer the appearance of the Burgess 5/ and 2/6 over the Kruger coins, even though the latter are scarcer except for the Sammy Marks tickey. I'm not ever planning to own any though. If the ABSA collection were ever sold at public auction, I could see myself buying a few of those. If enough were sold at once, it would probably lower the prices below those of many circulation strikes in the same grade.

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geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your input.

 

The name ZAR Patterns is a loose one in my view too, because although the time period was not far from that of Burgers and Paul Kruger and some of the depictions relate to the emblems and mottos of the ZAR and more specifically to the Boer efforts at their own identity, Otto Nolte in the Patterns made equally gave recognition to the Griqua and Cape entities which had nothing to do with the ZAR.

 

What struck me recently that the really rare Burger's Patterns and OFS Kroon that were sold fo big money last year at Dix Noonan and Web (Up to R1.8 Million) were mostly also Lauer creations but with a lower mintage.The exception was the Burgers Pond Pattern that was cast in Bronze and that was struck from the same die used to strike the Burgers Pond by Ralph Heaton and Sons of Birmingham. The lowest price for any of these Patterns fetched was around R150,000. it also seemed that one buyer bought most if not all of them. Exceptional coins do find buyers with deep pockets it seems !!

 

Herewith pics of a PCGS SP64 RD Cape of Good Hope Pattern that carries the pedigree of Louis Eiasberg, the famous US banker who apparently collected every US coin made in History. It seems he too had an appreciation for our Patterns - Collectors are everywhere - like lovers of Paintings !

 

Geejay

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2983[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]2982[/ATTACH]

58f5a730de214_1889CGHPatternPennySP64RDEliasbergObv.jpg.2f0f1c02214bc543a5fd2b87dd435015.jpg

58f5a730e2995_1889CGHPatternPennySP64RDEliasbergRev.jpg.59605cbac96eb8b75d5097d3a822d0d8.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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jwither

To my knowledge, none of these "patterns", regardless of the origin, were intended to function as a prototype for circulating coinage. The closest ones would probably be the 1874 Burgess ponds but even these not really because no coins of this face value would ever have been struck at the time in any metal other than gold. No one would have accepted it had it been made for circulation.

 

The difference to me between these Kruger and Burgess patterns along with a few of the others (the Kroon being one) is that these coins are ACTUALLY rare. Most of these pennies are not and even the other Griquatown coins or tokens (whatever someone wants to call them since I am not interested in that dispute at all) still come up for sale relatively frequently. You can buy one if you are willing to wait awhile.

 

Moreover, most of the Burgess patterns I have seen are badly mishandled. So while the reported mintage may be five, the actual number surviving in what would normally be considered a collectible condition is even less. So in actuality, I consider a price of R150,000 to be reasonable for specimens such as these because they are highly desirable but also almost never come up for sale.

 

What I would attribute the still high prices of the Pre-Union pennies are due to 1) They are collected with ZAR. 2) Those ZAR collectors who are trying to build a "full set" either do, might or tend to include them. 3) They are the only Pre-Union patterns which come up for sale regularly. 4) The unique designs.

 

From a numismatic standpoint, I really do not see any of them as really being particularly significant. Someone here can provide the historical context if they have it, but one thing we can know for sure is that either most or all of them were never struck as proto types for subsequent circulating coinage.

 

But this is no different than many or even most patterns from elsewhere. The US has over 2000 different issues listed in the Pollack and Judd reference guides. Most of these I would say were struck as part of illegal private profit making schemes by US Mint employees, some admittedly so and others not. (The most ridiculous are either low face value coins struck in gold or a high value coin normally struck in gold but issued in a base metal. These would never circulate.) Bolivia also has multiple dozens struck between 1868 and slightly after 1900 either by the Heaton or Paris MInts. I have no idea why they were struck but not for subsequent circulation either.

 

From this standpoint, I believe that many patterns are overpriced. But how desirable a specific issue is or is not is a function of what it looks like, how many were made and the repuation it has developed over time.

Edited by jwither

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Cold Sea

jwither said:

 

The most ridiculous are either low face value coins struck in gold or a high value coin normally struck in gold but issued in a base metal. These would never circulate

 

Maybe these should rather be classified as fantasy pieces. Question is should the salesman's pieces also fall into the fantasy class, where governments procured their coinage from private mints?

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither

Here is a defintion of fantasy coin I pulled off of the Wikidot.com Coin Dictionary:

 

"A coin privately minted with no official denomination & currency status but intended to convey the idea of a new design, concept, or political statement."

 

By this definition, I am not sure whether most of the Pre-Union patterns do or do not meet this definition. I believe that the Kruger patterns (except maybe for the Sammy Marks tickey which I understand was still struck using Mint facilities) were "officially struck. The others, not to my knowledge.

 

In some instances, I understand that coins were sometimes struck in a different metal just to test the design. These are actually experimental pieces by the US definition per the Judd reference. Maybe the metal was just easier to work with or maybe it was a matter of economy. But this would not have been true of coins like the Kruger gold 1892 2/6 and 1894 6D (both listed in Hern). Only a few were struck and I do not see how that could have been used to determine whether the subsequent silver 2/6 was viable commercially.

 

Of the US issues, it is the same story. I am not aware of any (or at least many) low denomination coins struck in gold (or silver), but there are plenty of high value coins struck from base metals. J-1775 is a $20 coin struck in lead. Since there was also another issue (J-1776) struck in gold (the correct metal) it could not even have been to test the desing unless they just did it first. The obverse of J-1776 was ultimately adopted for the $10 gold coin issued from 1907-1933.

 

Some other "patterns" clearly served no purpose whatsoever. The most famous of these is the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel. Since 1912 was the last year this coin was struck for circulation, it could not possibly have been a test coin of any sort. This only makes sense for coins bearing dates either concurrently or prior to an issue's introduction. In this instance, J-1690 dated 1882 was one of several such coins which were struck before the series was introduced in 1883. Since the 1913 was not a pattern, it was not included in proof sets and it would be pointless to strike five for circulation, the only remaining possibility is that it was illegally minted which is exactly what I understand is the consensus opinion.

 

Another similar example to the 1913 LHN are the 1866 "No Motto" 25c, 50c and dollar coins. The "No Motto" coinage was discontinued the prior year. These coins sell for exorbitant amounts, from what I heard because a prior owner convinced the publishers of the "Red Book" (the US price Guide equivalent to Hern) to include them. Otherwise, they would almost certainly sell for much less.

 

Still another coin which was struck for no commercial purpose is the 1804 "Restrike" dollar. Purportedly, the US Mint issued them because collectors who wanted a specimen with this date could not acquire the "Originals". (The coins were struck in the 1830's and around 1860 respectively.)

 

The best example of LEGITIMATE patterns that immediately comes to mind are the Union coins. To me, it is obvious that the combination of different metals, planchets (such as reeded versus smooth edges) and slight design changes shows that either most or even all of them were actually prototype specimens. The mintages support it also which is what I think would be expected of real patterns. In the US, sometimes larger mintages were produced to "market" the coin such as by distributing it to members of Congress and Treasury officials, but otherwise I believe that the larger mintages (subjectively in my opinion above a Judd Rarity-6 which is 30 coins) were simply to sell them to collectors for private profit.

Edited by jwither

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Mike Klee

Hi Ernesto,

 

The conception of the 1874 to 1890 patterns by the Germans has always fascinated me.

 

Firstly, I would believe that the intention of minting these patterns was decidedly commercial: the Germans recognised the almost overnight richness of the territories in modern day South Africa as a result of a series of events involving the discovery of diamonds and gold in the hinterland. Diamonds were discovered in the no-man's land of Griqualand/Griquatown area in 1863 and in 1871 the discovery of the world's largest single concentration of diamonds at modern day Kimberley resulted to the annexation of this area to the Cape Colony in 1877. Thus, it made sense to mint patterns of a possible coinage to attract the interest of both the new owners of these diamond fields- the Cape Colony - and the now-dispossessed Griquas.

 

Secondly, gold was discovered in the ZAR (Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek) at Pilgrims Rest in 1873 and the Witwatersrand in 1886. Thus, we have the 1874 patterns and the 1890 patterns.

 

 

With the Orange Free State, the reason for minting patterns for this territory remains elusive to me. The Orange Free State temporarily governed the diamond fields from 1871 and until 1876 fiercely contested the encroachment of the British into the diamond fields. Diamonds were also discovered in the OFS and its close proximity to the boomtown of Kimberley brought great wealth to the farmers in the area.

 

To my mind, the Germans minted these patterns as a speculative attempt to sell the idea of minting coins to these suddenly wealthy communities. The fact that they were unsuccessful was unfortunate - at this stage, although in 1892 the ZAR first coins were indeed minted in Germany - but they left South Africa a legacy of beautiful patterns of great rarity and high collectability.

 

Mike K

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Pierre_Henri

There was an article in a newsletter by the SA Numismatic Society (which was actually the Cape society) in the 1970s on the Cape Penny Patterns but for the life of me I cannot find it now in my library.

 

I am almost sure that it mentioned some estimated mintage figures. I will eventually find it and publish it here for those interested.

 

Secondly, in July 1967, the third SA numismatic convention was held at the Natal Administration Building in Acutt Street, Durban with 33 coin exibits. Number 27 was the following -

 

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Pierrex/Patterns.jpg

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geejay50

South African Proof Cameo Crowns

 

Hi folks,

 

I have noticed recently that South African Crowns in general have been commonly offered for sale. Their condition has been variable but they invariably have a popular following and always find a ready market. The reasons involve a few factors like their Silver Content (80% up to 1950 and 50% from 1951 onwards- correction made thanks Geewhizz!) this amounts to over a hundred rands worth of pure silver per coin with a current Siver price of $30 per fine oz.Another factor is Mintage and graded survival. Invariably the Proofs have been better looked after than the business strikes and end up with higher graded figures.

 

What struck me most recently was the absolute rarity of Cameo Proofs in certain years like 1953. in that year, there were only 3 Cameo Proofs graded at each of NGC and PCGS that means a total of 6 in total in a heavily graded coin. The ordinary Proof coin in 1953 had a total of 154 coins graded for both companies and the Business strike had 72 coins graded.

That makes the Cameo Proof 25 times scarcer and it unsurprisingly fetched a premium price recently.

 

The question may be asked, how does a Cameo really differ?

 

From the pics below, it seems that the real difference is the striking mirror fields being more so in the case of the Cameo rather than the frostedness of the bust when compared to the ordinary Proof coin. Both have a frosted finish to the bust.

Another impression is that the ordinary Proof has more lustre and less mirror to the fields than the Cameo so the frosted bust stands out in sharper contrast against the fields.

 

 

These are my observations, what do you think?

 

Geejay

 

 

58f5a7319341b_1953CrownPf67Rev.jpg.2edde35be980cde94ef199acd2ae1a92.jpg

58f5a73183c09_1953CrownPf65CameoObv.jpg.b1f5ea7bc01160de8f76fc44300810e5.jpg

58f5a73189270_1953CrownPf67Obv.jpg.6467a8d2945975fca0dbfda11f3129af.jpg

58f5a7318e41d_1953CrownPf65CameoRev.jpg.b3a2a212ed9bc8dd288a3dc77749885f.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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Little Miss Muffet

The silver content changed to ,500 in 1951 not 1952

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jwither

Geejay,

 

I would not assume that the cameo are 25 times as scarce as the non-cameo, Maybe that is the actual relative scarcity but there is no way to know it.

 

I saw that 1953 crown you are refererring to which "Flykite" sold for just over $1,000 on eBay, Personally, I coinsider the price absurd for the same reason I do with conditional rarities. The coin itself is not really scarce at all, only appearance wise but not enough to remotely justify this type of premium. Just like I have told you with the color on bronze, a proof 1953 crown is still a proof 1953 crown, no matter whether it is cameo or not.

 

In my opinion, the reason why it sold for this much is not because of the label, but because, as excessive as I think the price was, it is or at least appears to be a superior coin. I happen to own this same coin as an NGC PR-63 CAM and in my opinion,the contrast is not that distinctive from a "regular" proof. It is what I have seen with the few other CAM proofs I have also owned, all in NGC holders. This particular coin may not look as good as it does in the image, but if it is, then maybe PCGS is just stricter in assigning the designation.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50
Geejay,

 

I happen to own this same coin as an NGC PR-63 CAM and in my opinion,the contrast is not that distinctive from a "regular" proof. It is what I have seen with the few other CAM proofs I have also owned, all in NGC holders. This particular coin may not look as good as it does in the image, but if it is, then maybe PCGS is just stricter in assigning the designation.

 

Hi Ernesto,

 

Thanks for your input. If one clicks between images I have shown, there really is a marked difference in the Proof and the Proof Cameo in terms of mirror finish in the Cameo which makes the Bust stand out as "frosted". Accepting that these are two different companies and the limitations that imposes - I just dont have a PCGS ordinary Proof Crown with which to compare. Does anybody have one?

 

Geejay

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jwither

I would really like to see that coin or a similar one in person. I also have several of the 1974 RSA proofs as CAM or UCAM (NGC)/DCAM (PCGS). The one I have with me now is the Rand NGC PR-65 UCAM. Yes, it is a very nice coin and more mirrored and frosted than a "regular" proof, but no, it is not that "special". Same goes for the DCAM PCGS coins I have for this date because all of my set is PCGS except for this one coin. (I forgot to mention them in my last post.)

 

I would say that most RSA proofs I have seen are mediocre, but to me this just goes to show how few really exceptional proofs there are. When I see a CAM or UCAM/DCAM, I expect it to really stand out from the "regular" proof issues. My sample from SA is just too small but I have also seen many such coins from other countries, including the US.

 

From my limited observations, probably the best series that consistently has actually good CAM and DCAM/UCAM proofs is the US Franklin half dollar. These APPEAR to have "black" fields and frosted portraits or at least they really stand out from the few I have seen since most have been from images. Or maybe my recollection is just really poor and my standards are too high.

 

Another thing that I find annoying is that NGC (at least) does not appear to be consistent in assigning this designation. For example, I have a 1957 NGC PR-67 RD 1D which I thought was easily a CAM. It must have failed because of the reverse since I would rate the obverse a UCAM. It is easily the best specimen I have ever owned for any Union proof. On the other hand, my 1954 NGC PR-68 CAM 6D has a slight contrast but I was not expecting the CAM designation when I sent it for grading. It is essentially the same as that 1953 5/ from my last post and a prior 1954 PR-66 CAM 5/ I owned at one time.

Edited by jwither

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geejay50

Thanks Ernesto,

 

I had a look at my collection to see if there were other SA Cameo Proofs and came across a 1944 Pf65 Cameo Proof (pop1).

This coin came to me raw from Checkoslovakia in 2007 and I had it graded then. The ordinary Proof 2/- I sold unfortunately so I have a 1944 Pf66 Halfcrown (pop1) to compare. This actually also looks a bit Cameo in the hand but the fields are not as black as the Two Shilling on the pic.All pics were taken under the same conditions of exposure and speed.

 

The reverse of the Halfcrown has a truly stunning colouration that only a Proof coin can show.

 

Geejay

 

58f5a731aa252_1944Pf65TwoShillingObv.jpg.09ab88ec11c019c2ac2c6f11f70c53c0.jpg

58f5a7319f342_1944Pf66HalfcrownObv.jpg.78f3455495a046ceeccf10dc34753cb7.jpg

58f5a731a4d00_1944Pf65TwoShillingLogo.jpg.ba27f0c7a71df4ed31a940e7de9df24e.jpg

58f5a731f2382_1944Pf66HalfcrownObv1.jpg.686147ca0212ac52cd2ab109c7a1b69a.jpg

58f5a73202a9d_1944Pf66HalfcrownRev.jpg.b0ac4e4000aefe7c24a0bf72e198e359.jpg

Edited by geejay50

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geejay50

NO DOT AFTER DATE UNION PENNIES

 

Hi Folks,

 

Recently I chanced upon a really attractive raw 1948 Penny that did not have a dot after the Date on the Reverse.

 

There are only two other Years that have varieties which do not have dots after the Date namely 1940 and 1942 (so far???).

 

Looking at grading figures they are all much rarer than the variety with dots although the 1940 Penny has the most coins without the Dot graded (about 11).They come in different colours too, Red Brown and Brown with a two Red coins graded from 1948.

 

Jan recently described a 1938 Shilling without a dot after the Date. That is the first Silver coin with such a variety.

 

You sometimes find what you look for if you know what to look for.

 

If we keep looking, we might find some more?

 

Geejay

 

58f5a7323c40f_1948NoDotPennyObv.jpg.f80145a005aab76dbb6e56f716d615a4.jpg

58f5a7323573c_1948NoDotPennyRev.jpg.fa2cb3ebf90d7b47246178fa3722695a.jpg

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kimbo11
NO DOT AFTER DATE UNION PENNIES

 

Hi Folks,

 

Recently I chanced upon a really attractive raw 1948 Penny that did not have a dot after the Date on the Reverse.

 

There are only two other Years that have varieties which do not have dots after the Date namely 1940 and 1942 (so far???).

 

Looking at grading figures they are all much rarer than the variety with dots although the 1940 Penny has the most coins without the Dot graded (about 11).They come in different colours too, Red Brown and Brown with a two Red coins graded from 1948.

 

Jan recently described a 1938 Shilling without a dot after the Date. That is the first Silver coin with such a variety.

 

You sometimes find what you look for if you know what to look for.

 

If we keep looking, we might find some more?

 

Geejay

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3046[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]3047[/ATTACH]

 

Hi Geejay

 

How common are these penny's?

 

img055.jpg.b8cb76e65192f3e379b11c6cdb2d353f.jpg

Edited by kimbo11

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